View to soften veg tan straps and maintain strength

[deboardp]

I'm close to making sandals. Shop is basically complete. How can I make veg tan sandal straps soft and more pliable without losing strength? I've got some Bart's Saddle and Tack conditioner on the way. I heard use neats foot oil, don't use neats foot oil, use saddle soap and water and a horse hair brush. The straps will start at roughly 1.5 inches wide and taper to 1", and then taper to 3/4". I'm using 6 ounce luxury veg tan. It's already soft, but I want softer, more willing to conform to the shape of the foot. I don't want to use water for that because I think it will weaken the leather by allowing it to stretch too much. I also have 7.5 ounce utility veg tan.  it's stiffer, but I think the 6 ounce will work because I'm using wider straps. 

I forgot how to use Snapseed. Here's a link to a photo of my burnisher and sanding drum with DIY vacuum setup. Duct outlet, reducers, duct tape, gum, and paper clips. OK, no gum or paper clips. 

These two pix have nothing to do with my question. They're just for the curious. 

Better shot:

Edited December 23, 2023 by Northmount
Uploaded 3rd party hosted photos here

[TomE]

The main factors affecting strength of straps are the weight and quality of tannage.  The best leathers are tanned over a period of weeks by slowly increasing the tannin concentration in small increments.  This produces a more uniform crosslinking of collagen fibers in the leather, and it costs more than faster methods.  Hermann Oak leather is an example of quality leather that will produce strong straps.  The densest part of the hide, the butt and back, will yield the strongest straps.  The shoulder and belly are stretchy because of the looser structure of the fibers.  Neatsfoot oil will not harm the leather if applied in moderation.  Over oiling (saturating the leather) will make it sticky to the touch and spongey.  It is OK to wet form straps.  I routinely do this to fit pieces of horse tack tightly around the hardware.  I don't know what luxury veg tan is, but 6 oz is perhaps a bit thin for a strong strap.  I would consider 7-8 oz.  Taking care to bevel and burnish the edges of thicker/firmer straps will improve comfort.  Also skiving any ends that come into contact with the skin.  New tack is stiff and breaks in nicely with use.

Edited December 23, 2023 by TomE

[Dwight]

Not sure who bad mouthed neatsfoot oil . . . but I would not think of any thing else.  It is pretty much a natural product . . . and the rest of that high priced stuff you mentioned came out of someone's chemical factory . . . that will do "who knows what" to your product.

Neatsfoot oil cannot be applied by dipping or over brushing . . . but add a coat . . . then another . . . and just MAYBE a third . . . and you will have a very pliable and LONG LASTING product.  

That other stuff . . . ain't nobody knows what it will do . . . except for olive oil . . . down the road if you use it . . . your product will stink . . . guaranteed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited December 23, 2023 by Dwight

[Northmount]

9 hours ago, deboardp said:

I forgot how to use Snapseed. Here's a link to a photo of my burnisher and sanding drum with DIY vacuum setup. Duct outlet, reducers, duct tape, gum, and paper clips. OK, no gum or paper clips. 

Please post your photos on this site.  3rd party hosted photos disappear and break the integrity of the thread when the host changes policies or disappears.  Also when the OP decides to delete or move photos or closes the account.

[deboardp]

6 minutes ago, Northmount said:

Please post your photos on this site.  3rd party hosted photos disappear and break the integrity of the thread when the host changes policies or disappears.  Also when the OP decides to delete or move photos or closes the account.

I'll try to figure out how, again. 

[deboardp]

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

Not sure who bad mouthed neatsfoot oil . . . but I would not think of any thing else.  It is pretty much a natural product . . . and the rest of that high priced stuff you mentioned came out of someone's chemical factory . . . that will do "who knows what" to your product.

Neatsfoot oil cannot be applied by dipping or over brushing . . . but add a coat . . . then another . . . and just MAYBE a third . . . and you will have a very pliable and LONG LASTING product.  

That other stuff . . . ain't nobody knows what it will do . . . except for olive oil . . . down the road if you use it . . . your product will stink . . . guaranteed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Thanks, Dwight. I remember that I used neats foot oil 50 years ago. 

[deboardp]

4 hours ago, TomE said:

The main factors affecting strength of straps are the weight and quality of tannage.  The best leathers are tanned over a period of weeks by slowly increasing the tannin concentration in small increments.  This produces a more uniform crosslinking of collagen fibers in the leather, and it costs more than faster methods.  Hermann Oak leather is an example of quality leather that will produce strong straps.  The densest part of the hide, the butt and back, will yield the strongest straps.  The shoulder and belly are stretchy because of the looser structure of the fibers.  Neatsfoot oil will not harm the leather if applied in moderation.  Over oiling (saturating the leather) will make it sticky to the touch and spongey.  It is OK to wet form straps.  I routinely do this to fit pieces of horse tack tightly around the hardware.  I don't know what luxury veg tan is, but 6 oz is perhaps a bit thin for a strong strap.  I would consider 7-8 oz.  Taking care to bevel and burnish the edges of thicker/firmer straps will improve comfort.  Also skiving any ends that come into contact with the skin.  New tack is stiff and breaks in nicely with use.

Thank you, Tom E, for taking the time to help me.

All the leather I'm using is vegetable tanned. I have a side of 7/8 ounce for straps for men, and the 6/7 ounce is for the delicate among us. When I got back from Vietnam with my honorable discharge I learned how to make snacks and opened a shop. Heady days. I did bevel all edges, but used Edge Kote. I remember thinking it made the edges rough and hard. I didn't know about burnishing. 50 years later I'm determined to use best practices to make a world class sandal. 

I have the same concern as you about the thinner material, and I have justified using it because my straps are 50% (minimum) wider than what I used to use, which was 1/2". I noticed on my 20 year old sandals that the straps stretched and were only 3/8" wide in places of stress. I thought at the time that if I ever got back to making sandals I would increase that to 3/4".

And that's what I've done. The main strap is 1-1/2" wide over the big toe knuckle and 1" wide over the little toe knuckle. After that it transitions to 3/4" wide. I'm using an edge creaser, burnishing machine, and sewing machine to hold it all together. And glue of course. 

I AM using cuts along the back and butt for my straps, because the leather is obviously tighter fibered there.

I'm making 6 pair for friends at no cost to them. Two of them are delicate and will get the thinner straps. The others will get the 7/8 ounce, which is 7.5 ounce every where I've checked. The 6/7 is 6.0 ounces. 

Luxury vegetable tan comes out of a tannery in Italy and is tanned longer, I think. The result is a luxurious soft pliable leather, very uniform on both the flesh and grain sides. It was also expensive. 

I have a side of 7/8 Hermann Oak veg tan on its way.

Maybe the 7/8 straps will be fine for everyone if I use several applications of neats foot oil, as Dwight has suggested. I'll try that for the second pair I make for the delicate person. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by deboardp

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

I'll try to figure out how, again. 

This is easy peasy . . . posting pictures on here.

First . . . do a Goggle search . . . get Adobe Photoshop Elements 2.0 out there . . . it'll be free to down load if you search around a bit.

Put your pictures you take from your phone in a folder marked "raw pictures"

Open the picture up in Adobe . . . and in the top left corner of the tool bar . . . you can outline the part of the picture you really want . . . go to Image . . . tell it to Crop . . . and you will have what you want.

Go back to Image again . . . tell it to Resize the picture . . . resize the big side to be 1000 . . . and tell it to save . . . it will ask you how good a picture you want to keep . . . select something in the 300 to 600 area . . . then save it to a folder marked "fixed pictures".

Then when you want to post a picture here . . . go down below where it says choose files ....  double click it . . . scroll to the fixed pictures folder . . . pick it or them out . . . tell it to post them.

Done . . . piece of cake.

And in your spare time . . . you can use Adobe to do all sorts of photoshopping of your pictures . . . it is one of the slickest little free programs I've ever had.

May God bless,

Dwight

[TomE]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

Thank you, Tom E, for taking the time to help me.

All the leather I'm using is vegetable tanned. I have a side of 7/8 ounce for straps for men, and the 6/7 ounce is for the delicate among us. When I got back from Vietnam with my honorable discharge I learned how to make snacks and opened a shop. Heady days. I did bevel all edges, but used Edge Kote. I remember thinking it made the edges rough and hard. I didn't know about burnishing. 50 years later I'm determined to use best practices to make a world class sandal. 

I have the same concern as you about the thinner material, and I have justified using it because my straps are 50% (minimum) wider than what I used to use, which was 1/2". I noticed on my 20 year old sandals that the straps stretched and were only 3/8" wide in places of stress. I thought at the time that if I ever got back to making sandals I would increase that to 3/4".

And that's what I've done. The main strap is 1-1/2" wide over the big toe knuckle and 1" wide over the little toe knuckle. After that it transitions to 3/4" wide. I'm using an edge creaser, burnishing machine, and sewing machine to hold it all together. And glue of course. 

I AM using cuts along the back and butt for my straps, because the leather is obviously tighter fibered there.

I'm making 6 pair for friends at no cost to them. Two of them are delicate and will get the thinner straps. The others will get the 7/8 ounce, which is 7.5 ounce every where I've checked. The 6/7 is 6.0 ounces. 

Luxury vegetable tan comes out of a tannery in Italy and is tanned longer, I think. The result is a luxurious soft pliable leather, very uniform on both the flesh and grain sides. It was also expensive. 

I have a side of 7/8 Hermann Oak veg tan on its way.

Maybe the 7/8 straps will be fine for everyone if I use several applications of neats foot oil, as Dwight has suggested. I'll try that for the second pair I make for the delicate person. 

The points of a bridle are narrow (5/8") straps that receive a lot of tension.  Same for English reins.  I typically use 9-10 oz Hermann Oak bridle leather for bridles and reins.  Has a firm hand, which I prefer for cutting and sewing, and it softens when I oil the finished piece then rub in some conditioner.  Latigo leather is another possible choice - not as dressy as some veg tanned but it's tough, weather resistant, and doesn't stretch much.  The raw edge of 9-10 oz narrow straps looks clunky but it shapes up nicely after beveling front and back and burnishing the edge.  Great idea to give away the initial projects in exchange for constructive feedback, which I've done for all the tack items I've made.  Learned from my mistakes, made friends, and have solid recommendations for my work. 

[deboardp]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:57 PM, TomE said:

The points of a bridle are narrow (5/8") straps that receive a lot of tension.  Same for English reins.  I typically use 9-10 oz Hermann Oak bridle leather for bridles and reins.  Has a firm hand, which I prefer for cutting and sewing, and it softens when I oil the finished piece then rub in some conditioner.  Latigo leather is another possible choice - not as dressy as some veg tanned but it's tough, weather resistant, and doesn't stretch much.  The raw edge of 9-10 oz narrow straps looks clunky but it shapes up nicely after beveling front and back and burnishing the edge.  Great idea to give away the initial projects in exchange for constructive feedback, which I've done for all the tack items I've made.  Learned from my mistakes, made friends, and have solid recommendations for my work. 

I should have asked you if you thought that my 6 ounce straps might still be weak despite their pronounced width? Obviously 7/8 ounce would be stronger, but will a small man or a lady stretch these 6 ounce straps before twenty years is up?

Can you share what you use for oil and for conditioner?

Thanks!

Edited December 24, 2023 by deboardp