View to soften veg tan straps and maintain strength

[deboardp]

I'm close to making sandals. Shop is basically complete. How can I make veg tan sandal straps soft and more pliable without losing strength? I've got some Bart's Saddle and Tack conditioner on the way. I heard use neats foot oil, don't use neats foot oil, use saddle soap and water and a horse hair brush. The straps will start at roughly 1.5 inches wide and taper to 1", and then taper to 3/4". I'm using 6 ounce luxury veg tan. It's already soft, but I want softer, more willing to conform to the shape of the foot. I don't want to use water for that because I think it will weaken the leather by allowing it to stretch too much. I also have 7.5 ounce utility veg tan.  it's stiffer, but I think the 6 ounce will work because I'm using wider straps. 

I forgot how to use Snapseed. Here's a link to a photo of my burnisher and sanding drum with DIY vacuum setup. Duct outlet, reducers, duct tape, gum, and paper clips. OK, no gum or paper clips. 

These two pix have nothing to do with my question. They're just for the curious. 

Better shot:

Edited December 23, 2023 by Northmount
Uploaded 3rd party hosted photos here

[TomE]

The main factors affecting strength of straps are the weight and quality of tannage.  The best leathers are tanned over a period of weeks by slowly increasing the tannin concentration in small increments.  This produces a more uniform crosslinking of collagen fibers in the leather, and it costs more than faster methods.  Hermann Oak leather is an example of quality leather that will produce strong straps.  The densest part of the hide, the butt and back, will yield the strongest straps.  The shoulder and belly are stretchy because of the looser structure of the fibers.  Neatsfoot oil will not harm the leather if applied in moderation.  Over oiling (saturating the leather) will make it sticky to the touch and spongey.  It is OK to wet form straps.  I routinely do this to fit pieces of horse tack tightly around the hardware.  I don't know what luxury veg tan is, but 6 oz is perhaps a bit thin for a strong strap.  I would consider 7-8 oz.  Taking care to bevel and burnish the edges of thicker/firmer straps will improve comfort.  Also skiving any ends that come into contact with the skin.  New tack is stiff and breaks in nicely with use.

Edited December 23, 2023 by TomE

[Dwight]

Not sure who bad mouthed neatsfoot oil . . . but I would not think of any thing else.  It is pretty much a natural product . . . and the rest of that high priced stuff you mentioned came out of someone's chemical factory . . . that will do "who knows what" to your product.

Neatsfoot oil cannot be applied by dipping or over brushing . . . but add a coat . . . then another . . . and just MAYBE a third . . . and you will have a very pliable and LONG LASTING product.  

That other stuff . . . ain't nobody knows what it will do . . . except for olive oil . . . down the road if you use it . . . your product will stink . . . guaranteed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited December 23, 2023 by Dwight

[Northmount]

9 hours ago, deboardp said:

I forgot how to use Snapseed. Here's a link to a photo of my burnisher and sanding drum with DIY vacuum setup. Duct outlet, reducers, duct tape, gum, and paper clips. OK, no gum or paper clips. 

Please post your photos on this site.  3rd party hosted photos disappear and break the integrity of the thread when the host changes policies or disappears.  Also when the OP decides to delete or move photos or closes the account.

[deboardp]

6 minutes ago, Northmount said:

Please post your photos on this site.  3rd party hosted photos disappear and break the integrity of the thread when the host changes policies or disappears.  Also when the OP decides to delete or move photos or closes the account.

I'll try to figure out how, again. 

[deboardp]

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

Not sure who bad mouthed neatsfoot oil . . . but I would not think of any thing else.  It is pretty much a natural product . . . and the rest of that high priced stuff you mentioned came out of someone's chemical factory . . . that will do "who knows what" to your product.

Neatsfoot oil cannot be applied by dipping or over brushing . . . but add a coat . . . then another . . . and just MAYBE a third . . . and you will have a very pliable and LONG LASTING product.  

That other stuff . . . ain't nobody knows what it will do . . . except for olive oil . . . down the road if you use it . . . your product will stink . . . guaranteed.

May God bless,

Dwight

Thanks, Dwight. I remember that I used neats foot oil 50 years ago. 

[deboardp]

4 hours ago, TomE said:

The main factors affecting strength of straps are the weight and quality of tannage.  The best leathers are tanned over a period of weeks by slowly increasing the tannin concentration in small increments.  This produces a more uniform crosslinking of collagen fibers in the leather, and it costs more than faster methods.  Hermann Oak leather is an example of quality leather that will produce strong straps.  The densest part of the hide, the butt and back, will yield the strongest straps.  The shoulder and belly are stretchy because of the looser structure of the fibers.  Neatsfoot oil will not harm the leather if applied in moderation.  Over oiling (saturating the leather) will make it sticky to the touch and spongey.  It is OK to wet form straps.  I routinely do this to fit pieces of horse tack tightly around the hardware.  I don't know what luxury veg tan is, but 6 oz is perhaps a bit thin for a strong strap.  I would consider 7-8 oz.  Taking care to bevel and burnish the edges of thicker/firmer straps will improve comfort.  Also skiving any ends that come into contact with the skin.  New tack is stiff and breaks in nicely with use.

Thank you, Tom E, for taking the time to help me.

All the leather I'm using is vegetable tanned. I have a side of 7/8 ounce for straps for men, and the 6/7 ounce is for the delicate among us. When I got back from Vietnam with my honorable discharge I learned how to make snacks and opened a shop. Heady days. I did bevel all edges, but used Edge Kote. I remember thinking it made the edges rough and hard. I didn't know about burnishing. 50 years later I'm determined to use best practices to make a world class sandal. 

I have the same concern as you about the thinner material, and I have justified using it because my straps are 50% (minimum) wider than what I used to use, which was 1/2". I noticed on my 20 year old sandals that the straps stretched and were only 3/8" wide in places of stress. I thought at the time that if I ever got back to making sandals I would increase that to 3/4".

And that's what I've done. The main strap is 1-1/2" wide over the big toe knuckle and 1" wide over the little toe knuckle. After that it transitions to 3/4" wide. I'm using an edge creaser, burnishing machine, and sewing machine to hold it all together. And glue of course. 

I AM using cuts along the back and butt for my straps, because the leather is obviously tighter fibered there.

I'm making 6 pair for friends at no cost to them. Two of them are delicate and will get the thinner straps. The others will get the 7/8 ounce, which is 7.5 ounce every where I've checked. The 6/7 is 6.0 ounces. 

Luxury vegetable tan comes out of a tannery in Italy and is tanned longer, I think. The result is a luxurious soft pliable leather, very uniform on both the flesh and grain sides. It was also expensive. 

I have a side of 7/8 Hermann Oak veg tan on its way.

Maybe the 7/8 straps will be fine for everyone if I use several applications of neats foot oil, as Dwight has suggested. I'll try that for the second pair I make for the delicate person. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by deboardp

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

I'll try to figure out how, again. 

This is easy peasy . . . posting pictures on here.

First . . . do a Goggle search . . . get Adobe Photoshop Elements 2.0 out there . . . it'll be free to down load if you search around a bit.

Put your pictures you take from your phone in a folder marked "raw pictures"

Open the picture up in Adobe . . . and in the top left corner of the tool bar . . . you can outline the part of the picture you really want . . . go to Image . . . tell it to Crop . . . and you will have what you want.

Go back to Image again . . . tell it to Resize the picture . . . resize the big side to be 1000 . . . and tell it to save . . . it will ask you how good a picture you want to keep . . . select something in the 300 to 600 area . . . then save it to a folder marked "fixed pictures".

Then when you want to post a picture here . . . go down below where it says choose files ....  double click it . . . scroll to the fixed pictures folder . . . pick it or them out . . . tell it to post them.

Done . . . piece of cake.

And in your spare time . . . you can use Adobe to do all sorts of photoshopping of your pictures . . . it is one of the slickest little free programs I've ever had.

May God bless,

Dwight

[TomE]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

Thank you, Tom E, for taking the time to help me.

All the leather I'm using is vegetable tanned. I have a side of 7/8 ounce for straps for men, and the 6/7 ounce is for the delicate among us. When I got back from Vietnam with my honorable discharge I learned how to make snacks and opened a shop. Heady days. I did bevel all edges, but used Edge Kote. I remember thinking it made the edges rough and hard. I didn't know about burnishing. 50 years later I'm determined to use best practices to make a world class sandal. 

I have the same concern as you about the thinner material, and I have justified using it because my straps are 50% (minimum) wider than what I used to use, which was 1/2". I noticed on my 20 year old sandals that the straps stretched and were only 3/8" wide in places of stress. I thought at the time that if I ever got back to making sandals I would increase that to 3/4".

And that's what I've done. The main strap is 1-1/2" wide over the big toe knuckle and 1" wide over the little toe knuckle. After that it transitions to 3/4" wide. I'm using an edge creaser, burnishing machine, and sewing machine to hold it all together. And glue of course. 

I AM using cuts along the back and butt for my straps, because the leather is obviously tighter fibered there.

I'm making 6 pair for friends at no cost to them. Two of them are delicate and will get the thinner straps. The others will get the 7/8 ounce, which is 7.5 ounce every where I've checked. The 6/7 is 6.0 ounces. 

Luxury vegetable tan comes out of a tannery in Italy and is tanned longer, I think. The result is a luxurious soft pliable leather, very uniform on both the flesh and grain sides. It was also expensive. 

I have a side of 7/8 Hermann Oak veg tan on its way.

Maybe the 7/8 straps will be fine for everyone if I use several applications of neats foot oil, as Dwight has suggested. I'll try that for the second pair I make for the delicate person. 

The points of a bridle are narrow (5/8") straps that receive a lot of tension.  Same for English reins.  I typically use 9-10 oz Hermann Oak bridle leather for bridles and reins.  Has a firm hand, which I prefer for cutting and sewing, and it softens when I oil the finished piece then rub in some conditioner.  Latigo leather is another possible choice - not as dressy as some veg tanned but it's tough, weather resistant, and doesn't stretch much.  The raw edge of 9-10 oz narrow straps looks clunky but it shapes up nicely after beveling front and back and burnishing the edge.  Great idea to give away the initial projects in exchange for constructive feedback, which I've done for all the tack items I've made.  Learned from my mistakes, made friends, and have solid recommendations for my work. 

[deboardp]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:57 PM, TomE said:

The points of a bridle are narrow (5/8") straps that receive a lot of tension.  Same for English reins.  I typically use 9-10 oz Hermann Oak bridle leather for bridles and reins.  Has a firm hand, which I prefer for cutting and sewing, and it softens when I oil the finished piece then rub in some conditioner.  Latigo leather is another possible choice - not as dressy as some veg tanned but it's tough, weather resistant, and doesn't stretch much.  The raw edge of 9-10 oz narrow straps looks clunky but it shapes up nicely after beveling front and back and burnishing the edge.  Great idea to give away the initial projects in exchange for constructive feedback, which I've done for all the tack items I've made.  Learned from my mistakes, made friends, and have solid recommendations for my work. 

I should have asked you if you thought that my 6 ounce straps might still be weak despite their pronounced width? Obviously 7/8 ounce would be stronger, but will a small man or a lady stretch these 6 ounce straps before twenty years is up?

Can you share what you use for oil and for conditioner?

Thanks!

Edited December 24, 2023 by deboardp

[TomE]

7 hours ago, deboardp said:

I should have asked you if you thought that my 6 ounce straps might still be weak despite their pronounced width? Obviously 7/8 ounce would be stronger, but will a small man or a lady stretch these 6 ounce straps before twenty years is up?

Can you share what you use for oil and for conditioner?

Thanks!

I'm unclear how the straps attach to the sandals.to distribute the load.  I use pure neatsfoot oil (Fiebings) and mostly Blackrock Leather N' Rich although I also like Fiebings Aussie conditioner and Bickmore Bick 4.   

[deboardp]

9 hours ago, TomE said:

I'm unclear how the straps attach to the sandals.to distribute the load.  I use pure neatsfoot oil (Fiebings) and mostly Blackrock Leather N' Rich although I also like Fiebings Aussie conditioner and Bickmore Bick 4.   

I answered this laboriously on my "smart" phone, and then lost the message when I went looking for my attachments. So now I'm on the laptop, and I edited the pic I want to send you. 

I use slots in the topsole, and channels (cutouts) in the midsole, to pass straps across to the other side of the sandal.

In the picture, those straps are one  piece of leather, separated so I can use a buckle. The wide end, at the big toe knuckle, deadends under that knuckle. I glue it to the flesh side of the top sole under the knuckle. Later I will run a doubled stitch through all three soles and the deadend, make sure it never pulls out. The dotted lines show where that front strap crosses to the other side from the little toe slot. The ankle/heel stanchions, one piece of leather, also pass across  through a cutout in the midsole. The stanchions strap will be glued to the topsole, and stitched to prevent shifting. I use the midsole in order to keep the topsole flat, no humps from a strap being under it. The midsole is made of the same side of leather as the straps, the parts that are not prime strap leather. The straps fit in the cutouts, laying flat with the midsole, because they are replacing the part I cutout for them to lay in.

I'm innovating with this design. My hypothesis is that two thinner layers of softish leather (7/8 ounce) will conform to the foot better than a more hardish, thicker single layer, and in my practice sandal, I noticed the the edge of the topsole curls up after I run a stitch along the sandal edge, which I like immensely. It creates a raised edge, helping to hold the foot. The bottom sole is not bend, which is too stiff. I'm using another double sole feature for the bottom sole. The two-part bottom sole will be 10 ounce shoulder, stiched together with top and midsoles, and then a 1/8" thick gum rubber bottom sole that will be glued, not stitched, to the shoulder.

I wonder about the glue, and I'm going to create a new topic under the shoes and sandals forum here. I had tried a water based glue, Intercom ECOSTICK 1816B, and I liked it. I glued two scrap pieces of shoulder together and it held quite tight.  A week later I wondered about it getting wet, and how it would hold up. So I soaked it in warm water, probably unfair, because rain is not usually warm, for 15 minutes, and tried to pry it apart. To my surprise, it came right apart. That's not good. I wonder if Barge or Renia Top-Fit would withstand being soaked. I have a gallon of each. I used Barge on my own personal sandals that lasted 20 years before I finally lost them, and I'm pretty sure they got wet from time to time. Do you know the answer to this question? I have a gallon of another water-based glue on the way, wish I could remember the name of it... but I think all water-based glues will share the problem of losing their bond when the leather is soaked. On the other hand, if the leather pieces are stitched or cobbled, they won't separate. The question might be moot.

[deboardp]

I added the deadends, with dotted lines. I also added a photo with the stitching, how it passes over the deadends and also reinforces the other straps with parallel stitches.

[deboardp]

stitching

[deboardp]

I did some more online snooping about oils and conditioners and read something from Carl Friedrik that reminded me of 50 years ago hearing the same thing, that neatsfoot oil can harm leather, while mink oil is the best oil for leather. My second stroke destroyed many of my memory functions, so I just don't remember many many things. So I bought a few bottles of mink oil online from Tandy. I've been using the neatsfoot oil on my stones to sharpen my round knives and I guess now I have a lifetime supply for that.

Here's the link to what I read: what Carl said about best oil for leather

Edited December 25, 2023 by deboardp
add the link