No room for two needles in stitching holes (pics)

[Dannyman]

Hi everyone,

My first post on this forum! I am hoping to get some help.

I took a piece of old leather belt to practise stitching and I'am running into trouble right away. I bought a leather crafting set from Amazon + some hole punches/chisels but my stitching holes seem too small or my needles too big.

I searched the web to see if I could source hole punches that leave bigger stitching holes., but found that the distance between the tooth changes, often not the diameter of the tooth themselves.

So what should I do? Buy smaller needles? Get a bigger punch set? I'am a bit confused. I want to do the saddle stitch but it's way too hard to get the needles through...

Some advice would be wonderful! :)

I'am very curious...,

Thanks!

[SUP]

You don't need to push 2 needles in at the same time, no matter what some of the teaching videos say. 

Check this video - it teaches yo how to stitch the angled stitches as well, pushing through one needle at a time.

 

Edited March 21, 2024 by SUP

[DieselTech]

17 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

Hi everyone,

My first post on this forum! I am hoping to get some help.

I took a piece of old leather belt to practise stitching and I'am running into trouble right away. I bought a leather crafting set from Amazon + some hole punches/chisels but my stitching holes seem too small or my needles too big.

I searched the web to see if I could source hole punches that leave bigger stitching holes., but found that the distance between the tooth changes, often not the diameter of the tooth themselves.

So what should I do? Buy smaller needles? Get a bigger punch set? I'am a bit confused. I want to do the saddle stitch but it's way too hard to get the needles through...

Some advice would be wonderful!

I'am very curious...,

Thanks!

You dont have to have both needles in the hole at the same time. But yes smaller needles will help. I use a john james 002 & 1/0 harness needles. 

[Mablung]

What SUP said. I do occasionally push both needles through at the same time, but really only on softer oil tan leathers that I know will shrink back down from the extra stretching. A hole large enough for two needles at once is likely one that will allow the thread for each stitch to shift and wear prematurely anyway.

It also appears you’re not using harness needles, nor are your needles the same size. Get some harness needles around the size DieselTech suggested. That will make the process considerably easier. I think you’re trying to make the wrong kind of needle do a job it wasn’t made to do. 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Mablung

[Dannyman]

33 minutes ago, SUP said:

You don't need to push 2 needles in at the same time, no matter what some of the teaching videos say. 

Check this video - it teaches yo how to stitch the angled stitches as well, pushing through one needle at a time.

EDIT: now I see the link. Thanks!

Hi there, thanks for replying. I see no link when hovering with my mouse over it. Could you edit it in for me? Or maybe it's me?

BTW, I don't even try to push two needles at the same time. I pull the first needle trough with the hand holding the second needle - holding them as a "cross". But it's so tight, even that doesn't work. Probably with pliers, I could. But that, of course, isn't sustainable. 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Dannyman

[Dannyman]

Quoting DieselTech: "You dont have to have both needles in the hole at the same time. But yes smaller needles will help. I use a john james 002 & 1/0 harness needles. "

Just to be sure, do you mean John James harness needles:

size 0 (1/0)
and
size 2 (002)

It's a bit confusing to say the least, how they express the sizes 

Thanks!

Edited March 21, 2024 by Dannyman

[DieselTech]

17 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

Quoting DieselTech: "You dont have to have both needles in the hole at the same time. But yes smaller needles will help. I use a john james 002 & 1/0 harness needles. "

Just to be sure, do you mean John James harness needles:

size 0 (1/0)
and
size 2 (002)

It's a bit confusing to say the least, how they express the sizes 

Thanks!

Yes I would get both of them sizes of harness needles. Lol I fought my stitching when I started as well, due to too big & the wrong needles. 

[Dannyman]

Thanks DieselTech, I ordered them. The saddle stitch shouldn't be the hardest part in leatherworking, I reckon. It will probably go smooth now

[Mablung]

52 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

BTW, I don't even try to push two needles at the same time. I pull the first needle trough with the hand holding the second needle - holding them as a "cross". But it's so tight, even that doesn't work. Probably with pliers, I could. But that, of course, isn't sustainable. 

I don’t think I follow. Do you insert both needles into the hole, then pull each one through separately? If so, then you’ll still have needless difficulty sewing. 
 

Either way, get yourself some proper harness needles, and that should help considerably. 

[Dannyman]

3 minutes ago, Mablung said:

I don’t think I follow. Do you insert both needles into the hole, then pull each one through separately? If so, then you’ll still have needless difficulty sewing. 
 

Either way, get yourself some proper harness needles, and that should help considerably. 

I probably wasn't very clear, sorry for that. I only have one needle in the leather, at all times. And even that was hard :).

Edited March 21, 2024 by Dannyman

[Mablung]

3 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

I probably wasn't very clear, sorry for that. I only have one needle in the leather, at all times. And even that was hard :).

Ah, I gotcha. Sometimes it is difficult to get them through, but I think that’s generally an issue of mismatching sizes of thread, needle, and stitching hole. You’ll start to get it dialed in with time. The amount of information on that subject is overwhelming. 

[MarshalWill]

I always use pliers when I stitch. Often the second needle needs to be pulled through with pliers. Sometimes the first one does, too, depending on how many layers and the type of leather. Make sure you're using the harness needles others have recommended here. Those needles with the wide tips are for stitching canvas and upholstery, not leather.

[SUP]

Check this. It give some idea about needles and threads.

 

I do as @MarshalWill does too - keep a small pair of pliers handy.

[Dannyman]

37 minutes ago, MarshalWill said:

I always use pliers when I stitch. Often the second needle needs to be pulled through with pliers. Sometimes the first one does, too, depending on how many layers and the type of leather. Make sure you're using the harness needles others have recommended here. Those needles with the wide tips are for stitching canvas and upholstery, not leather.

So using pliers isn't uncommon? Thanks for mentioning. That manages my expectations a bit. In video tutorials stitching usually goes real smooth and easy.

Thanks SUP,  I'm going to watch that video. Just bookmarked it...

[SUP]

Pliers and a good awl.  I always have those with me when stitching by hand.

 

[TomE]

I didn't watch the videos, so this might be redundant.  To avoid piercing the thread when pushing the second needle through pull the first thread backwards as you advance the second needle then pull up the stitch.  This requires clamping the work in a pony/horse/clam so you have both hands free to manage the needles.  In the perfect world you would use a sewing awl instead of chisels.  Pliers are sometimes needed especially when overstitching at the beginning/end of a stitch line.  I wax the thread with beeswax, or a mixture of pine resin-beeswax, which makes my fingers slightly tacky and improves grip on the needles.  Stohlman's book on hand sewing covers basic technique and some construction methods.

[Northmount]

@Dannyman  Moved this thread to Sewing Leather

[MikeRock]

Follow up the punches with a proper awl, it will perfect the holes for you.

[toxo]

Firstly there's no mystery to leather work. Most of it is common sense. If you want to do two needles, use a bigger hole or smaller needles. Nothing wrong with one at a time. The learning curve comes when you want it to look good. You don't want to see half a hole next to the thread. I would advise you get a single hole punch with changeable heads. Will also do for rivets and belt holes.

[dikman]

Mike beat me to it, I pre-punch my holes using a sewing machine (gives me even spacing) and then use an awl to give the nice diamond shape to the holes. I also do as TomE said and pull the thread back towards me to reduce the possibility of piercing the thread already in the hole (I learned that the hard way!!!).

[MarshalWill]

I only use a diamond awl to punch holes but then, I don't have a machine.. In the saddle shop we would use a machine to punch the holes, like @dikman mentioned.

It pays to get a good diamond awl. I have several for different jobs but mostly, I use a 38mm Vergez-Blanchard awl. The 38mm is the smallest they offer. The brass collar is narrow and doesn't get in the way when punching close to some hardware or such. Shape the tip and keep it sharp so it penetrates the leather easily.

The one on the right is a round awl not used to make holes for stitching but the others are diamond stitch awls. The one on the left is the Vergez-Blanchard. The one next to that is what I use for thicker leather. The other two don't get much use at all.

[Dannyman]

16 hours ago, toxo said:

Firstly there's no mystery to leather work. Most of it is common sense. If you want to do two needles, use a bigger hole or smaller needles. Nothing wrong with one at a time. The learning curve comes when you want it to look good. You don't want to see half a hole next to the thread. I would advise you get a single hole punch with changeable heads. Will also do for rivets and belt holes.

Why would I buy a single hole punch with changeable heads and use that in conjunction with a diamond shaped awl? Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

I had a look at buying a single hole punch. The seller only offers two kinds of changeable heads.; hollow and regular. Does hollow just means a bigger hole?

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch? I was looking at this set of punches

very curious :). I just bought the The Art of Hand Sewing Leather btw. Thanks for the tip TomE

[SUP]

4 hours ago, Dannyman said:

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch?

If you are using bought patterns, often, the distance between the stitching holes in the pattern do not exactly match any set of chisels like the one you have mentioned above. This discrepancy occurs because the method of measuring the distances between prongs varies. Many sellers, e.g. Dieselpunk.ro, use expensive chisel sets like  Sinebrok chisels. For his patterns I use ordinary but also good chisels off Amazon, where the 6 and 9 prong chisels don't work but the 2 prong ones do. The same set works perfectly for patterns bought from other sellers off Etsy and I can use the 6 and 9 prong chisels there.

So for the times when your chisel sets don't work for a pattern,  you need single hole punches. Another reason would be because many pattern sellers tell you the size of the holes needed, e.g. 1mm or 1.5mm. because they expect you to use punches. Once you know the diameter of your chisel-punched holes of course, you can use chisels.

Now about using the diamond stitching chisels, the patterns are often not made with those in mind, so the directions of the angles might differ in different parts of your product unless you map them all correctly. Much easier to punch round holes and case the stitches to get the required angles. Easier and faster, at least for me.

Now, while it is true that punching holes actually takes off a bit of the leather while chisels only make a slit  through the leather, most of the patterns have holes far enough apart not to much weaken the leather. For smaller items like wallets and watch straps I do not know since I don't make them.  I think they will need finer holes and smaller stitches closer together than, say, a backpack or handbag or saddle. 

Edited March 22, 2024 by SUP

[jcuk]

5 hours ago, Dannyman said:

Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

The way i was taught this was to line your Awl up with the angle of your stitch mark, and where your thumb is on the Awl haft cut a notch out colour with a marker pen that should help keep your Awl at the correct angle.

Hope this helps

JCUK

[toxo]

5 hours ago, Dannyman said:

Why would I buy a single hole punch with changeable heads and use that in conjunction with a diamond shaped awl? Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

I had a look at buying a single hole punch. The seller only offers two kinds of changeable heads.; hollow and regular. Does hollow just means a bigger hole?

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch? I was looking at this set of punches

very curious :). I just bought the The Art of Hand Sewing Leather btw. Thanks for the tip TomE

There are many variations of hand stitching. A punch will make a hole whereas a chisel will make a slit. It takes a certain amount of skill to use an awl and look good when finished. If using a pattern the holes will often be marked. This is where confusion comes in. You may buy a set of punches/chisels for one project only to find the distance between stitches on the next project has a different distance. A single punch will do for all until you know what you're doing, a good set of punches/chisels are not cheap. If wanting a sloping stitch you can use a pricking wheel which has spikes and will mark all the places to make your hole for stitching, or use a pricking iron which is designed for just marking the leather. The trick is to go through both pieces together or if doing each piece separately, make sure you start at the same place else they won't match up.