Questions about leather

[Regis]

I have some basic questions that I've put togather in one post. Hopefully there are pretty clear answers (for my simple novice mind).

1- I would like to buy large leather peices (side or?) to use for various items and not sure what to ask for or select. For example I would like a relatively soft leather suitable for home sewing machine but, firm enough for decorative carving and stamping. Usage would be purses, bags for various items, and belts.

2- I have a number of peices of leather and really don't know what weight they are. I've read the charts (here and elsewhere) but, don't quite get it. How do I measure to know what oz leather I have in my hand? Place in micrometer and flatten flesh side? Place purpendicular to ruler (squeeze or not)? I don't need a lot of precision but I would like to be able to hold peice in my hand and be able to order apprximately same thing (online).

3- If I buy a leather that is dyed (a medium brown for example) because I'll mostly use that color, can I still dye it (black or dark brown) for certain peices that I cut from it? Or, does original dye cause other problems and I should "always" start with un-dyed if I'm going to do any coloring at all?

4- Besides weight, I see leather listed in sides, halfs, bellies, etc. Is shape the major difference? Or, are there choices that should be used "only for" (or not) for specific pourpose?

5- What is lightest weight that can be reasonably carved or stamped and see good detail?

I sure appreciate this forum and have been absolutely amazed and encouraged by some of the talent exhibited here.

Thank you,

Regis

Edited January 22, 2007 by Regis

[bruce johnson]

Regis,

I'll jump into this pond. Sorry no clear cut answers here.

1. I am not really sure how heavy duty some home machines will go, but the little we have tried on one convinced me that they are for home use on fabrics, and very marginal on leather. Anything thick enough to do some tooling on will probably be too much for a home machine.

2. I have a gauge that I measure thickness with. I tried the caliper deal with just getting it firm, and it is close. Most leather sellers will be able to recommend appropriate weights for a specific project, or just ask the specifics here!

3. If you are buying dyed leather it is most likely chrome tanned like chap or upholstery leather, or latigo. You can dye chap darker, but sometimes end up with funny feel to the leather, funny colors, and it sure can't be tooled on very well. Ditto for latigo. You may find some drum dyed skirting leathers - very heavy weight 12-16 oz. Sounds like way too much for what you are describing your needs. Veg tan leathers tend to be most repeatable for dyeing.

4. As far as type of piece, again your seller can help you decide based on intended use. There are different stretching, tooling, and strength characteristics of different parts of the hide, and while bellies may work for a sheath, not appropriate for a belt. That sort of thing.

5. Lightest weight that can be stamped or tooled and show good detail. I have seen some very good tooling on 2 oz, and some really flat looking work on skirting. And it came from under my own hand. Factors are - tannery of origin, quality of leather, casing time and type, ability of the tooler, part of the hide the piece came from a lot of variables. Generally for deeper tooling I want 5 oz or up, but have done some OK checkbooks on 3 oz.

These are sure not rules, but recommendations based on my experience. Have a good one - :pepsi:

Bruce Johnson

[Regis]

Bruce,

I do appreciate you taking the leap. I did kind of toss out a "teach mre all about leather" question. You were clear to me. I asked these because I bought some leather locally and what they told me just wasn't matchin' up with what I've been reading. For example one peice was pretty dark brown but, a color that was very good for the purse I was trying to make. The told me it was latigo and ohhhh about 4-5 oz. If I bought the whole peice (about 22 ft) I could tool it just fine and dye darker if needed. Well, I bought enough and made the small purse for my daughter. I tried to stamp a few simple leaves design and it really doesn't show that well. I tried to carve on some scrap and it is nothing like other sample pieces I have from a small kit. I also have some lamb that is dyed and I can easily sew on home machine. All-in-all, I need to know a little more before simply taking word of sales folk. They are nice people but, are primerily in the leather item repair business.

Here is picture of purse (1st project that is actually finished). You can see how poor the stamping looks.

1st Project - purse

Thank you,

Regis

Regis,

I'll jump into this pond. Sorry no clear cut answers here.

1. I am not really sure how heavy duty some home machines will go, but the little we have tried on one convinced me that they are for home use on fabrics, and very marginal on leather. Anything thick enough to do some tooling on will probably be too much for a home machine.

2. I have a gauge that I measure thickness with. I tried the caliper deal with just getting it firm, and it is close. Most leather sellers will be able to recommend appropriate weights for a specific project, or just ask the specifics here!

3. If you are buying dyed leather it is most likely chrome tanned like chap or upholstery leather, or latigo. You can dye chap darker, but sometimes end up with funny feel to the leather, funny colors, and it sure can't be tooled on very well. Ditto for latigo. You may find some drum dyed skirting leathers - very heavy weight 12-16 oz. Sounds like way too much for what you are describing your needs. Veg tan leathers tend to be most repeatable for dyeing.

4. As far as type of piece, again your seller can help you decide based on intended use. There are different stretching, tooling, and strength characteristics of different parts of the hide, and while bellies may work for a sheath, not appropriate for a belt. That sort of thing.

5. Lightest weight that can be stamped or tooled and show good detail. I have seen some very good tooling on 2 oz, and some really flat looking work on skirting. And it came from under my own hand. Factors are - tannery of origin, quality of leather, casing time and type, ability of the tooler, part of the hide the piece came from a lot of variables. Generally for deeper tooling I want 5 oz or up, but have done some OK checkbooks on 3 oz.

These are sure not rules, but recommendations based on my experience. Have a good one - :pepsi:

Bruce Johnson

[whinewine]

It looks like a latigo (although the strap seems to have a chrome tanned, greyish center line- it just may be the lighting, though). Latigos can be stamped, but not particularly well, and are unsuitable for carving fine detail. The key to carving/tooling/stamping is: DOES IT TAKE WATER? If you can put a drop of water on the leather & it immediately soaks in, it is vegetable tanned & should be able to be tooled. Latigo tends to be more water resistant, although it can take on some water, hence, it can be stamped, but you don't get a lot of definition.

It is a nice purse, with a nice, simple stamped design. Nothing wrong with it!

Edited January 23, 2007 by whinewine

[Chitin]

Actually, that sounds about right to me. In my experience, Latigo dyes alright (with a couple of coats) but doesn't stamp well at all. You might also want to watch out for the dye bleeding when it rains onto white clothing.

[Johanna]

No two hides are the same. You can take sister cows, send their hides to the same tannery, and the two hides will have differences. No hide is the same thickness throughout, either. That's why leather "weight" is often expressed in ranges, i.e. 8/9 oz. or 4/5 oz.

The center of the whole hide is where the animal's spine was. The area by the rump is thicker than the shoulders. Hides are often sold as sides. If you cut straps, this is the most economical way to purchase leather. Double shoulders might be long enough for belts, or not, depending on the animal, but they are the "cleanest" looking parts of the hide. If you plan to carve the leather, you can save money buy buying leather with imperfections that you can work around, or cover up with tooling. Belly areas are soft and mushy compared to the shoulders and may not be suitable for a function that will place the leather under stress.

To keep this conversation straight, here is a chart:

A, F & G are good for small projects, practice pieces, etc.

A,B,D &F is a "side"

B & C is a "double shoulder"

B & D is where you would get your straps from

I borrowed this from George Hurst's Hidecrafter Catalog

because I'm too tired to type it out right now.

When buying leather, consider what you plan to do with it. Every time a hide is cut, the price per square foot increases. If you can use the whole side, it's less expensive in the long run (because there is no such thing as "scrap"!) Buy from a vendor you have a rapport with- if the seller knows what you are doing, he can select a hide best suited for your needs. I would save a long side for a person who plans to make straps (belts) and I would save a pretty double shoulder for someone I know wants a piece with no blemishes, for example. Tandy catalogs used to refer to the "occasional range markings that add authenticity to your project" which is a nice way of saying, "Hey, this cow tangled in barbed wire or got caught on a roller at the tannery" but in truth brands and some markings can be interesting. Just make sure that any flaw in the leather is not expected to bear weight or be subject to stress. Any time you punch a hole in leather (even for sewing) you weaken it, too, so the smallest holes you can use are desireable. Often you will see purse straps sewn on in a triangular pattern- this is a way to distribute the "load" evenly and not rip out the stitches. Some people make the mistake of punching holes to close to the edge- after practice, you can eyeball it, but keep in account how much force will be exerted on those holes, and does the leather toward the edge have enough room to not be weak?

I hope I answered some of your questions, Regis, didn't mean to get off track.

Johanna

[Art]

Hi Regis,

I don't know if latigo was the right choice for your first bag. Veg tanned shoulder is easier to buy and much easier to work. All advice here is good. You should find a leather supplier who can help with questions. Seigel of California is both reputable and knowlegable. Don't use the website, call them and ask questions about whatever you are doing and what leather you should use. Of course you can always ask here. Don't look for, or buy cheap leather, it is just that and unless you are knowlegable, it is seldom what it is cracked-up to be.

Your bag is good in a minimalist sort of way. Great for a teen or pre-teen and their style of clothing. Bags get rough use and sewing is recommended. Some latigo is fast and some likes to run; I always test a piece even if I have used it before.

Always try to ask specifics, for instance; I am making a _______, what kind of leather should I use, and how do I finish it?

Art

I have some basic questions that I've put togather in one post. Hopefully there are pretty clear answers (for my simple novice mind).

1- I would like to buy large leather peices (side or?) to use for various items and not sure what to ask for or select. For example I would like a relatively soft leather suitable for home sewing machine but, firm enough for decorative carving and stamping. Usage would be purses, bags for various items, and belts.

2- I have a number of peices of leather and really don't know what weight they are. I've read the charts (here and elsewhere) but, don't quite get it. How do I measure to know what oz leather I have in my hand? Place in micrometer and flatten flesh side? Place purpendicular to ruler (squeeze or not)? I don't need a lot of precision but I would like to be able to hold peice in my hand and be able to order apprximately same thing (online).

3- If I buy a leather that is dyed (a medium brown for example) because I'll mostly use that color, can I still dye it (black or dark brown) for certain peices that I cut from it? Or, does original dye cause other problems and I should "always" start with un-dyed if I'm going to do any coloring at all?

4- Besides weight, I see leather listed in sides, halfs, bellies, etc. Is shape the major difference? Or, are there choices that should be used "only for" (or not) for specific pourpose?

5- What is lightest weight that can be reasonably carved or stamped and see good detail?

I sure appreciate this forum and have been absolutely amazed and encouraged by some of the talent exhibited here.

Thank you,

Regis

[Billsotx]

Consider searching for Herman Oak and Wickett Craig. Call them on the phone don't mess with email. Ask them for color swatches of their dyed vegetable tanned leather. That will give you the basic colors that are available. They'll more than likely be skirt 12/14 oz but you'll have the colors they have available. They are big enough to carve and tool so you can test a swatch to see if you want to try carving and tooling. I have had good luck with that because the dye is deep enough, but it may be on light weights I haven't tried that yet, but logic tells me the dye will penetrate deeper. Ask that they also send you natural/russet - that's their non-dyed. As mentioned you may or may not have good results with dye. It varies from hide to hide and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You're going to have to experiment and I'd keep written notes but those will not be etched in stone. Back on that tooling their drum dye leather, more than likely you'll carve or tool through the dyed area, you "might" be able to touch that up with a dye or stain or paste or gel that you can call antiqued or aged. Antiqued or aged because you will not likely match the tanneries' dye. There's some threads on here re: antique and unlike dye it's a real wild card in my experience. I keep messing up leather scraps and I'm getting close but some of the old timers assure me I won't win a cigar. I know they're probably right, but I'm too hard headed to listen ... lol

BTW - when Bruce Johnson speaks - I listen!

[Regis]

Thanks all for the info and tips. I know now that latigo was wrong and that is why I started this question. I think the safest now for me is to pick project and talk on phone to a large, reputable dealer like Art mentioned. I sure like the chart that Johanna posted.

Continuing to learn,

regis

[Romey]

Regis, what you use and how you used it is never wrong, you have a project that you made with your own hands and your daughter likely loves so it is not wrong and dont let it all get to you. There is no wrong, just better wich will come with time, skill and knowledge. As for your tamping, odd as it might seem I have seen worse. Get some vegtan, and have another go, each one will get better no doubt. Good on you for your first finished project. You may want to look into handstitching techniques and a stitch pony if your physically capable of hand stitching

Edited January 30, 2007 by Romey