Symmetry in stitch lines

[ThisIsMyFirstRodeo]

Okay, so I know this is a basic technique, but I seem to have regressed back down the learning curve. Or I just had early luck. 

(Working with basic foldover knife sheaths), I cant seem to get the holes for my stitch lines to match up on either side. To be clear, I have successfully made several in the past, which is why I’m even more frustrated. 
 

I’ve made templates from multiple kinds of paper and from EVA foam, and I’ve tried directly on the leather as well (sometimes I get brave). 
 

I’ve used edge-guided groovers, rotary spacers (the little wheel that pricks the leather as it rolls), wing dividers, punching the welt and using it as a template, overlapping the prongs of my punches, and even my drill press, and I’m still failing. 
I’ve tried punching them flat, punching them folded, even punching with the welt glued in place. 
 

It really does feel like my first rodeo again. Please help. 
 

Thanks,
AZR

[chuck123wapati]

1 way punch your holes on the front of the sheath only, or with the welt glued onto the front piece punch both, glue up the sheath with the welt in place, then use an awl to push through the back side and sew it up.

2. if you punch all three pieces separately, use small nails or brads to align the pieces for glue up, usually one in the top hole, a couple along the middle, then the last hole at the bottom of the sheath. 

Remember if you use stitching chisels to be sure and punch from the same side when folded as in the front is punched from the front side or outside of the sheath and the back of the sheath is punched from the inside of the sheath, or the angled slots will be reversed and won't line up they will make an x shaped hole. i also use a round awl for the top and bottom holes to help with a nice alignment and clean finished look, always starting my chisels from the same end of the piece, top or bottom.

Another thing that makes your stitching wonky is crossing your stitches as you sew, always one needle, either the left or right, depending on the slot angles, goes in the front. I sew toward myself, so i place the left needle in the slot farthest from me and the right needle closest to me.

[PastorBob]

12 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

1 way punch your holes on the front of the sheath only, or with the welt glued onto the front piece punch both, glue up the sheath with the welt in place, then use an awl to push through the back side and sew it up.

2. if you punch all three pieces separately, use small nails or brads to align the pieces for glue up, usually one in the top hole, a couple along the middle, then the last hole at the bottom of the sheath. 

Remember if you use stitching chisels to be sure and punch from the same side when folded as in the front is punched from the front side or outside of the sheath and the back of the sheath is punched from the inside of the sheath, or the angled slots will be reversed and won't line up they will make an x shaped hole. i also use a round awl for the top and bottom holes to help with a nice alignment and clean finished look, always starting my chisels from the same end of the piece, top or bottom.

Another thing that makes your stitching wonky is crossing your stitches as you sew, always one needle, either the left or right, depending on the slot angles, goes in the front. I sew toward myself, so i place the left needle in the slot farthest from me and the right needle closest to me.

+1

[fredk]

 

+ 1 more

[AlZilla]

Chuck nailed it, as usual.  My biggest issue with hand stitching has been when I don't hold the stitching chisel exactly straight up and down. The side I punch from will be a nice straight line and the other side will wander the opposite of whatever way I leaned the stitching chisel.

Some pictures would probably help.

[ThisIsMyFirstRodeo]

Chuck, thank you for the advice. I’ll definitely be giving those techniques a try. 
 

Al, I’ve noticed the same with the chisels. Makes me wonder though where I’m going wrong with my drill press…

[Northmount]

Moved to Sewing Leather

[chuck123wapati]

57 minutes ago, ThisIsMyFirstRodeo said:

Chuck, thank you for the advice. I’ll definitely be giving those techniques a try. 
 

Al, I’ve noticed the same with the chisels. Makes me wonder though where I’m going wrong with my drill press…

just my opinion, but you won't get as nice-looking stitches with round holes due to the angle of the chisel or awl slots makes for the appearance that folks are used to seeing. Plus, the slots will seal back up and hold the stitch tighter, drilling holes loses some leather in the process, whereas slots don't.

To make sewing easier, as you pass the needle through the slot, wiggle it/them up, down, and sideways rather hard to enlarge the slot, making it a simple process to pull through, it will shrink back down, then lightly set the stitch with a hammer when you are done sewing.

[Dwight]

For straight holes . . . hands and punches will be hard pressed to beat a drill press.

Remove the drill bit . . . put a needle in it's place . . . unplug the machine . . . and punch your holes.

If you really . . . REALLY . . . want them to look good . . . punch them from the top first . . . into a piece of hard wood . . . with the drill press stop set 1/8 of an inch below your bottom edge of the sheath.

Then turn the sheath over and punch from the back side all the way thru.

Makes right real pur-teeee holes for stitching

May God bless,

Dwight

[dikman]

Or, if you've got a spare awl bit put that in the drill press and use that to punch your holes. I made a fitting using an awl bit to attach to my arbor press to do the same thing.

[fredk]

No problem with symmetry when using these;

If you punch one side of the sheath first with them, then glue up and use them again the sewing holes will match in direction. This will go thru about 4mm of leather, and even if they don't they leave a hole deep enuff on both sides for an awl to finish off

[ThisIsMyFirstRodeo]

On 5/3/2025 at 8:14 AM, Dwight said:

For straight holes . . . hands and punches will be hard pressed to beat a drill press.

Remove the drill bit . . . put a needle in it's place . . . unplug the machine . . . and punch your holes.

If you really . . . REALLY . . . want them to look good . . . punch them from the top first . . . into a piece of hard wood . . . with the drill press stop set 1/8 of an inch below your bottom edge of the sheath.

Then turn the sheath over and punch from the back side all the way thru.

Makes right real pur-teeee holes for stitching

May God bless,

Dwight

 

On 5/3/2025 at 4:39 PM, dikman said:

Or, if you've got a spare awl bit put that in the drill press and use that to punch your holes. I made a fitting using an awl bit to attach to my arbor press to do the same thing.

Dwight and Dikman, I actually found a set of drill press punches at harbor freight. The first thing I noticed was that you have to have the drill running, which bothers me for some reason, but as it punches, the friction does burnish the hole at the same time. Jury is out on if I prefer drill bits or the punches…

For my work surface, I actually have a scrap of 10oz that I cased and hardened, and put another piece (not cased) on top of it, and that it what I put my working piece on. So far, the punches/bits haven’t gone through and hit my table (yet). I also use it when I’m stamping.

Dwight, you mentioned putting a needle in the press… are you using glover’s needles? My diamond-point needle doesn’t seem to be long enough to fit in the chuck and still have enough travel to punch through. And Dikman, of everything that I have, I don’t actually have any awl bits. Are you referring to the little interchangeable ones?

 

Thank you for your input guys, I’ll play around. 
-AZR

On 5/3/2025 at 4:58 PM, fredk said:

No problem with symmetry when using these;

If you punch one side of the sheath first with them, then glue up and use them again the sewing holes will match in direction. This will go thru about 4mm of leather, and even if they don't they leave a hole deep enuff on both sides for an awl to finish off

WHAT is THAT?!?! Whatever it is, I want one!

[DJole]

I have one set of Japanese style 3mm irons with a matching set of 3mm REVERSE irons, in which the slots are angled the other way. (/ / / and \ \ \, to roughly illustrate.)

I have found the following steps useful, especially on thicker pieces:

1) Before putting the 2 pieces (or edges) together, use dividers to get a nice straight line, and use the irons to punch one side of the piece, not both. I'll call that the front side. Be sure that the irons are VERTICAL, so the holes go straight without any wobbling. I find that I am much more consistent with the irons running along the line away or towards me (rather than across), since I can just see the vertical better.  
2) Tape/glue the front and back sides together. 
3) Use the pre-punched front side as a GUIDE, and re-punch every 5th or 10th hole with a single prong, or a diamond awl, going all the way through the pre-punched front layer just enough to show on the reverse side.
4) Use dividers on the reverse side to mark a stitching line equal to the front side margin. That line should consistently cross the guide holes.
5) Use the reverse irons, and the guide holes, to create the stitching line on the back side. The reverse irons should match the pre-punched front side holes, since they are a same spacing. 
6) Now I am ready to stitch, using the advice given above about consistency in needle technique.

[dikman]

You can buy just the awl needle itself without a handle, I just happened to have a spare that I was given with a heap of leatherworking stuff. As long as you don't rotate the drill chuck it should punch the same alignment each time.

[ThisIsMyFirstRodeo]

20 hours ago, DJole said:

I have one set of Japanese style 3mm irons with a matching set of 3mm REVERSE irons, in which the slots are angled the other way. (/ / / and \ \ \, to roughly illustrate.)

I have found the following steps useful, especially on thicker pieces:

1) Before putting the 2 pieces (or edges) together, use dividers to get a nice straight line, and use the irons to punch one side of the piece, not both. I'll call that the front side. Be sure that the irons are VERTICAL, so the holes go straight without any wobbling. I find that I am much more consistent with the irons running along the line away or towards me (rather than across), since I can just see the vertical better.  
2) Tape/glue the front and back sides together. 
3) Use the pre-punched front side as a GUIDE, and re-punch every 5th or 10th hole with a single prong, or a diamond awl, going all the way through the pre-punched front layer just enough to show on the reverse side.
4) Use dividers on the reverse side to mark a stitching line equal to the front side margin. That line should consistently cross the guide holes.
5) Use the reverse irons, and the guide holes, to create the stitching line on the back side. The reverse irons should match the pre-punched front side holes, since they are a same spacing. 
6) Now I am ready to stitch, using the advice given above about consistency in needle technique.

Where did you find the reverse irons? Inquiring minds are blown! I had been thinking about why reverse irons weren’t a thing, and this is literally the first time I’ve heard of their existence. 

As far as your process, I had been using a similar method (I think). On my next piece, I’ll try your method. As far as my stitching itself, it’s adequate enough to be acceptable, but I’m not going to focus on it until I can get the holes right. Baby steps…

Just tossing out the method variation that I used on my current piece, last night I marked/drilled the stitch line on the welt first, and used it as a template to mark the holes from the grain on both sides before I punched. This particular piece I am only riveting, and so far they line up, but rivets don’t need the accuracy of stitching. Still need to dye it, so I haven’t actually set the rivets yet, but so far I’m feeling positive about it. 
 

Just a continuation for Dwight and Dikman, I was playing with the press punches again last night. It does seem that the torque from the rotation can pull on the leather closer to the edge and give a more oval hole. On that basis, I do prefer normal drill bits.

I’ll play with using a maul punch (probably not the correct terminology, but just to quickly differentiate from the press punches) in the chuck. I question if I’m going to beat the press up, as I’m not in a position to replace it. (cheap benchtop model from harbor freight, definitely not the best engineered, but it usually gets the job done…)

 

Thank you to everyone for their input,

AZR

[DJole]

3 hours ago, ThisIsMyFirstRodeo said:

Where did you find the reverse irons? Inquiring minds are blown! I had been thinking about why reverse irons weren’t a thing, and this is literally the first time I’ve heard of their existence. 

I got my reverse irons here:
https://www.kevinleetools.com/products/basic-diamond-chisel
They are the Japanese diamond chisel (not the French pricking iron/slit style).
size: 3.0, 4.0,5.0, or 6.0mm
tooth numbers:
*1+2+4+6 set
*10
*15
*20
*1+2+4+6 reverse set

That bottom set is what I have. I use them as a companion to a Japan Goods regular direction set (3mm, 1,2,3,4,6 and 10 tooth). Even though they are a different make, they match up just fine on the leather. 
These irons are light, and I think they might be small in size for folks with large hands, but they are well-polished and ready to use.

----------------------------

In case you need a French style reverse, Kevin Lee also features those to match his regular irons:
https://www.kevinleetools.com/products/kl-french-style-pricking-iron

Size
1.93mm, 2.25mm, 2.45mm, 2.7mm, 3.0mm, 3.38mm, 3.85mm, 4.0mm, 4.5mm, 5.0mm
Tooth
1, 2, 8, 20, 2+8 tooth reverse, 12, 5, 10

---------------------------------

Kevin Lee has reverse sets for other sets of his irons, both the low budget set (which I have) and a couple of the more expensive sets.

I don't work for Kevin Lee, nor do I get any benefits from his company, but I am a satisfied customer who invested in his tools. 

Edited Sunday at 10:15 PM by DJole