Renia Colle de Cologne vs Syntic Total a Superfix

[chuck123wapati]

I just had to repair a dog leash I made four years ago. It has been used hard on a daily basis. The Weldwood I used on it was still flexible and strong enough that the leather tore before the glue gave way. Glue is only as strong as the leather is, no matter the price you pay for it.

[dikman]

Nothing wrong with the bog-standard contact cement, and as a bonus it keeps you happy while you work! 

[Tastech]

While on the subject of glues i thought i should mention an observation i have made that would be totally irrelevant to almost the entire population of the world except a for a few cobblers .It concerns water based contact glue .

I dread when Italian made shoes come in for repair . There is a common denominator . The leather sole comes unstuck from the upper . The shoes are usually about 5 years old or more . Most women will buy a pair of Italian shoes while visiting and think they have something special . Well they don't .  Italian shoes are like their cars , They can be well designed but poorly engineered . In other words they look good but consistently fail because of poor construction . Italians are just as capable of making a crap shoe as the Chinese . In fact i would go further and say that a Chinese shoe is usually better constructed than your average Italian factory shoe . Why you ask ?

The reason is the glue used to attach the soles . It's a low VOC ( volatile organic compound) glue usually water based . Some time in the early 2000's the EU in their infinite wisdom decided that thinner based glues are a bad idea so they put in place regulations for occupational health and safety reasons banning thinner based glues .In factories at least . The banned ingredient is toluene which can cause health issues in some people .I believe that the state of California also has restrictions of toluene . What happens with water based contacts is that after a period of time the glue breaks down and loses its performance , in other words it comes unstuck .In Australia we have no restrictions so we can still use the good stuff . Another factor affecting the performance of water based contact is heat . Australian pavements in summer get really hot and walking on them with thin soles glued with water based contact loosens the sole . To fix the problem i have to sand the original glue off both sole and upper and use a proper contact . The are a few brands which have consistent failure in hot weather , one of them is Birkenstock and Hugo boss and quite a few others but Italian women's shoes consistently fail .

 To give an analogy . 20 years ago car brake pads lasted about 3 times as long as they do now . Why ? Asbestos . Longer lasting and very little black brake dust over the rims .I make no judgments on what is good or bad for the environment but i have noticed a steep decline in performance and longevity of many products in many fields . As many will be familiar with there is a certain noticeable difference between the steel of an old knife to a new one . Most of my shoe making tools are very old and still perform better that anything new especially blades that can maintain an edge 3 times longer than a modern blade does .  Having said that ,a shout out to Victor from Starko tools in Ukraine who  still makes some impressive shoe tools and blades .

Sorry for the rant but if its worth saying its worth saying good .

[Yukonrookie]

11 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Glue is only as strong as the leather is, no matter the price you pay for it.

Yeah, I think you’re right. I ended up buying a can of Le page heavy duty Cement at the local hardware store on my trip to town. It seems like decent stuff. Time will tell, but it behaves the exact same way as the more expensive ones I used thus far. Just about half the price from the Renia options.

[Yukonrookie]

3 hours ago, Tastech said:

While on the subject of glues i thought i should mention an observation i have made that would be totally irrelevant to almost the entire population of the world except a for a few cobblers .It concerns water based contact glue .

I dread when Italian made shoes come in for repair . There is a common denominator . The leather sole comes unstuck from the upper . The shoes are usually about 5 years old or more . Most women will buy a pair of Italian shoes while visiting and think they have something special . Well they don't .  Italian shoes are like their cars , They can be well designed but poorly engineered . In other words they look good but consistently fail because of poor construction . Italians are just as capable of making a crap shoe as the Chinese . In fact i would go further and say that a Chinese shoe is usually better constructed than your average Italian factory shoe . Why you ask ?

The reason is the glue used to attach the soles . It's a low VOC ( volatile organic compound) glue usually water based . Some time in the early 2000's the EU in their infinite wisdom decided that thinner based glues are a bad idea so they put in place regulations for occupational health and safety reasons banning thinner based glues .In factories at least . The banned ingredient is toluene which can cause health issues in some people .I believe that the state of California also has restrictions of toluene . What happens with water based contacts is that after a period of time the glue breaks down and loses its performance , in other words it comes unstuck .In Australia we have no restrictions so we can still use the good stuff . Another factor affecting the performance of water based contact is heat . Australian pavements in summer get really hot and walking on them with thin soles glued with water based contact loosens the sole . To fix the problem i have to sand the original glue off both sole and upper and use a proper contact . The are a few brands which have consistent failure in hot weather , one of them is Birkenstock and Hugo boss and quite a few others but Italian women's shoes consistently fail .

 To give an analogy . 20 years ago car brake pads lasted about 3 times as long as they do now . Why ? Asbestos . Longer lasting and very little black brake dust over the rims .I make no judgments on what is good or bad for the environment but i have noticed a steep decline in performance and longevity of many products in many fields . As many will be familiar with there is a certain noticeable difference between the steel of an old knife to a new one . Most of my shoe making tools are very old and still perform better that anything new especially blades that can maintain an edge 3 times longer than a modern blade does .  Having said that ,a shout out to Victor from Starko tools in Ukraine who  still makes some impressive shoe tools and blades .

Sorry for the rant but if its worth saying its worth saying good .

Very interesting post. This forum is awesome. To be able to hear first hand, long term experiences from pros about things that the “average” guy, or someone from a very different background would never learn of.

 

My sheaths, holsters, belts and such are constantly exposed to the north Canadian bush. My first saddle will be exposed to tough outdoor use. I suspect that water based stuff won’t be quite up to snuff. It won’t hold up to extensive exposure to water, I know that for sure.

The notion that the glue you use is just supposed to bond until it’s sewed, is something I have to get used to. I think that if you’re using glue for something why not use the best you can find. 
 

Anyway, I’m still relatively new at all this so I might be talking out of my … here.

[Tastech]

@Yukonrookie

"The notion that the glue you use is just supposed to bond until it’s sewed, is something I have to get used to. I think that if you’re using glue for something why not use the best you can find."

I think when it comes to the type of leather work you do you are correct . The glue will still hold up for many years maybe even for a lifetime. The stitching is where its at . Always use the best quality thread you can get your hands on .I always use a nylon thread for both uppers and soles . I think a braided nylon would be perfect for your sheaths . I use it for stitching soles to the welts . I have not known of it breaking down over time like cotton and flax does . Last week i repaired an old 1950's leather jacket which is of the field style jacket . The stitching had deteriorated along the back panel and shoulders The thread was a cotton . After checking the rest of the jacket i realized everything else was going to fall apart . From what would have been a simple repair i had to remove the lining and re stitch everything . While at it i used a padded flannel shirt to make a new lining . I spent the better part of a day on it , but the customer was over the moon and happy to pay

I used to see thread deterioration quite a lot 30-40 years ago. Mind you the jackets and shoes were already 20 - 30 years old back already . I was told by my master tradesman at the time that this was because of the acidity of the water proofing product namely dubbin and neatsfoot oil which would dissolve the stitching over time . I believe that lanolin based products does this as well . Because of the almost universal use of nylon threads this is no longer a problem . When it comes to preserving and waterproofing leather in cold harsh environments I think mink oil is probably the best to use . Bees wax just seals the leather but doesn't nourish it much . Think of it this way . Mink oil is a leather conditioner  as moisturizer is for skin . Beeswax and polish are like make up  for leather . The 2 serve different purposes but are compatible with each other . As i do with my shoes i first condition and then polish . The leather stays soft and flexible with the conditioner and the polish shines and protects the leather from dirt and water .  

Due to your location and lifestyle you will need a good pair of boots. from the videos i have watched nothing compares to Nick's hand made boots . The construction and materials of those boots are next level.  They are like T90 tanks for your feet. Too hard core for Australia but for Pacific North West USA and Canada they are perfect and you know they won't fail you .

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, Yukonrookie said:

Very interesting post. This forum is awesome. To be able to hear first hand, long term experiences from pros about things that the “average” guy, or someone from a very different background would never learn of.

 

My sheaths, holsters, belts and such are constantly exposed to the north Canadian bush. My first saddle will be exposed to tough outdoor use. I suspect that water based stuff won’t be quite up to snuff. It won’t hold up to extensive exposure to water, I know that for sure.

The notion that the glue you use is just supposed to bond until it’s sewed, is something I have to get used to. I think that if you’re using glue for something why not use the best you can find. 
 

Anyway, I’m still relatively new at all this so I might be talking out of my … here.

Not only the proper type of glue but the correct application of the glue is also critical to a good bond. Glueing and sewing in leather work is the same concept as gluing and nailing in woodwork; they work together to make a better and longer-lasting product.

[kgg]

3 hours ago, Tastech said:

Too hard core for Australia but for Pacific North West USA and Canada they are perfect and you know they won't fail you .

My take is there is no ideal boot thread to cover Canada's widely varying temperatures. Everything from hot humid summers up to about 40 C (104 F) with a humidity factor on top of that temperature while some parts during winter will experience temperatures down to -60 C (-76 F) plus a wind chill factor. In the summer you can only strip down so far as not to scare the horses while in the winter you dress up to look like the Goodyear blimp. I can remember waking up one beautiful sunny winter morning a few years back and no water it was frozen. It was a balmy -50 C and I'm in Southeastern Ontario.

Those winter temperatures will play havoc on bonded nylon thread. Since bonded nylon absorbs water during cold conditions like what the Yukon experiences (dropping down to, if I'm not mistaken, -50 C) the thread may act more like that of glass (Glass Transition) of becoming more rigid and brittle. Flexing will then cause fraying / cracking and failure of the thread. In real cold conditions bonded polyester would probably be a better cost effective solution. Kevlar would better again but would probably have other cons besides cost.

kgg

[Yukonrookie]

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

have not known of it breaking down over time like cotton and flax does .

What is your opinion of high quality linen thread like, say, a fil a chinois? I’m sure with enough hard use no thread would stand up for eternity, but maybe when hard use is paired with proper care and maintenance?

 

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

used to see thread deterioration quite a lot 30-40 years ago

I guess that may answer my question. I’m sure you came across good Lin cable back than too.

 

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

namely dubbin and neatsfoot oil which would dissolve the stitching over time . I believe that lanolin based products does this as well

Interesting, I have heard this since I started the hobby, but I used to be of the belief that dubbin or an natural oil like “pure” beats food oil would do exactly the opposite and protect natural plant or animal based stuff. Thinking that ‘If good for leather it should be good for linen, cotton or flax as well’. I know better now, but my point is that the majority of folks out there still believe this.

 

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

Bees wax just seals the leather but doesn't nourish it much

Now this IS news to me. I’ve been using sno seal on my boots and saddles for ages. Since starting the hobby I’ve even been putting it on sheaths and belts as well, as long as I didn’t stamp much. Making sure I melted it nicely. I don’t think sno seal is only beeswax. Obviously I’m only talking for veg tanned leather, the odd time oil tanned but not chrome tanned. I heard and read that beeswax for chrome tanned is no bueno. Is this correct?

I have on occasion used pure mink oil but only on anything where I didn’t mind a “softer” leather. But when I use mink oil, not too much, over the years it softens the leather up too much for my taste. May be just my imagination? Although, I use it a fair bit on my saddles.

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

The leather stays soft and flexible

When it’s supposed to be soft or I want it to become soft, right?

 

6 hours ago, Tastech said:

protects the leather from dirt and water

For my mountaineering boots especially I found sno seal to be superior to anything else I ever used. I’m talking about good quality triple stitched boots here. They have oil tanned Juchten leather. They’re a completely handmade boot by Hanwag called the “Sepp 100”. Initially pricey boots ($750 US) but they have lasted me 10 years already and been re-soled 3 times. My previous pair lasted me 12 years before I got a new pair, but I now wear them for reall messy work. Mountaineering or riding boots are all I wear and both would be considered work boots for me, as I’m a wilderness guide. My riding boots, usually of the “packer boots” variety, don’t see wear and tear as heavily as my mountain boots. Those will go through hard dry rocky country and plus 30 degrees Celsius one day, swamps and countless creek crossings the next and snow and ice the next day again. Sometimes all in a single day. Plus they get exposed to up to -55 Celsius during winter. I don’t wear them then but they are stored in buildings that aren’t heated when I’m not around for more than a couple days. The boots actually came with 3 vouchers for free re-sole. So my next re-soling will be the 1st one I gotta pay for. The soles for my mountain  boots are usually down to 40% life after 2 years. So going with them, while initially sounding expensive, is actually economically sensible.  

 

 

4 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Not only the proper type of glue but the correct application of the glue is also critical to a good bond. Glueing and sewing in leather work is the same concept as gluing and nailing in woodwork; they work together to make a better and longer-lasting product.

Well put!

[Yukonrookie]

@kgg I couldn’t have said it better. I’m located in the yukon. 650km north of Whitehorse. It’s rough, mountainous bush country. I live in the middle of it with the closest neighbour a looong ways away. Trails out here are either made by myself or animals. It’s a hard life on gear. It’s something I have to always vividly explain for most people to realize that it’s something to constantly consider when choosing the right gear and that wear and tear is at completely different levels here.