Needles for hand-stitching leather sandals.

[SUP]

I want to make simple leather sandals - with a leather sole - about 14 oz of veg tanned leather, a mid-sole - about 10oz and the insole about 5oz. So it will be pretty thick. Which needles can I use to stitch through such thickness? I have ordinary ones that have all got mixed up, so I decided to get appropriate ones to make these sandals. 

I would appreciate guidance on this.

[fredk]

I presume you're going to punch or awl the sewing holes, so any of your regular needles that you use with whatever thickness of thread. For saddle stitching 1mm thread I use a 1 or 1.2mm needle, for 0.6mm thread I use a 0.8mm needle

[zuludog]

Yes, the soles will be thick, a total of 11 or 12 mm by my estimation, so your first problem will be to make the actual stitching holes. This will mean at least a heavy duty saddler's awl or some kind of punch or pointy thing that you hammer through, or a drill

Once you've made the holes the actual sewing is fairly straightforward, just use any of your current needles, but as you will almost certainly be using a thicker thread - 0,8mm; 1,0mm; or 1,2mm - check that it will actually go through the eye of the needles. Mostly I use John James needles, but for thick thread I use Tandy Stitching Needles 10 pack SKU 1195 - 00; or just ask your supplier for needles & thread that match

To protect the stitching on the underside of the sole use a stitching groover. 

Edited 10 hours ago by zuludog

[SUP]

7 hours ago, fredk said:

I presume you're going to punch or awl the sewing holes,

2 hours ago, zuludog said:

will be to make the actual stitching holes.

Yes, I will be punching the stitching holes. But I have had trouble earlier where the needles have broken, even with punched stitching holes. I was probably using the wrong sized needles.

I do have needles with bigger eyes but then the problem that arises is pushing them through the stitching holes. With the thread, the eye area thickens and can stick and then break, pliers notwithstanding. 

 I will enquire with the Tandy folk. All that armour that they seem to be making all the time is made of pretty thick leather, so they will know about hand-stitching thick leather.

7 hours ago, fredk said:

For saddle stitching 1mm thread I use a 1 or 1.2mm needle, for 0.6mm thread I use a 0.8mm needle

I will keep that in mind for the current and all future projects.

2 hours ago, zuludog said:

John James needles, but for thick thread I use Tandy Stitching Needles 10 pack SKU 1195 - 00

 

A trip to Tandy is evidently in the cards today. They have a sale going on serendipitously! 

Thank you @fredk and @zuludog for your guidance.

 

[fredk]

33 minutes ago, SUP said:

Yes, I will be punching the stitching holes. But I have had trouble earlier where the needles have broken, even with punched stitching holes. 

Use one of these; a saddlers palm, aka a sailmakers palm

Available for left or right hand. 

Handy to have for the occasional use. Generally not expensive but some can be

I find on thick leather the needle is reluctant to go through so I use a small pair of pliers to help pull it through

 

[fredk]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

. . . But I have had trouble earlier where the needles have broken, even with punched stitching holes. . . .

I do have needles with bigger eyes but then the problem that arises is pushing them through the stitching holes. With the thread, the eye area thickens and can stick and then break, pliers notwithstanding. 

What make of needle are you using? and what way do you attach the thread?

My needles don't widen at the eye. And I fix the the thread on by piecing the thread and pulling it down so that its locked in line with the needle

[SUP]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

Use one of these; a saddlers palm, aka a sailmakers palm

I don't have that. Will need to order them. 

I do have  thin gloves that I made for stitching to prevent 'blood sacrifices' as I stitch. Maybe I can attach something on the palms as well.

 

24 minutes ago, fredk said:

What make of needle are you using? and what way do you attach the thread?

No idea about the makes. Those that I ordered are John James; some I bought from Tandy. Others from Amazon Vine which are actually fine for ordinary leatherwork - bags and other sundry items. 

I plan to check what Tandy has in stock today, else order John James online. 

I need to ensure that the needles that I purchase do not widen at the eye. I checked, and all mine do. So adding the thickness of the thread, it is not surprising that the needles break, I guess.

About attaching the thread, I do the S-knot. Sometimes I just pierce the thread with the needle and pull it through to lock it in position. 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by SUP

[zuludog]

I don't see why you're having trouble with breaking needles. I've never made sandals but I have made axe covers from 3,5 to4 mm leather so front + back + welt = 10,5 to 12 mm which is about the same thickness that you'd like to sew and I don't think I've ever broken a needle .... though perhaps one when I was tired and in a hurry. Here is my method and a few comments, which I hope will be helpful. Probably not in perfectly flowing English grammar, but you should manage

Cut out the pieces and glue with contact glue

Mark the stitch line then make holes with a stitching chisel to the depth of the prongs

Complete the holes with a diamond/saddler's awl

Do the saddle stitch! I use 0,8mm braided polyester thread (can't remember the make) or Tandy Waxed Nylon Thread SKU 1227 - 01 which I think is good for heavy duty work and underrated. Wax the thread even if it's sold as ready waxed

I don't bother with the usual technique of piercing the thread, I just do a simple fold over at the eye. This way I can move the needle along as thread is used up so it doesn't develop any localised weak points - and it works well enough. And I've never had a needle fall off!

Use a generous amount of thread - compared to the rest of the cost and your time & efforts having a bit of thread left over is the least of your worry

Push the needle through the hole with your fingers or a scrap of leather till 10 to 15 mm pokes out of the other side then pull with pliers if necessary. I just use small to medium sized general engineer's pliers and tape the jaws to prevent scratching the needle

You might need to temporarily enlarge the hole with a scratch/round awl, particularly on a back stitch but it soon closes up again, especially if you settle the stitching with a cobbler's hammer or a soft mallet

I use - Tandy Diamond Stitching Chisel 4mm, Craftool SKU 88046; Tandy Stitching Needles 10 pack SKU1195; Osborne Saddler's Harness Awl blade #43 in a simple bulb shaped haft

Work on getting the awl blade absolutely polished and sharp, there are several YT Videos, and note that the tip of the blade should not be a fine needle point, it is more like a very small rounded chisel end 

Most importantly - for all the times you use chisels, awls, needles, make sure they are straight & perpendicular to the leather and just do a straight pull  or push without twisting or waggling the tool

I work with a stitching pony or a saddler's clam. 

Be precise, careful, and patient. I assume you're doing this for a hobby, so take plenty of time and have a rest if you're getting frustrated

 

Edited 3 hours ago by zuludog

[Northmount]

If using pliers, use flat jaw type.  No grooves that may mark the needle and begin a crack causing a break if slightly twisted.  Straight pull, no bending action.

 

[SUP]

36 minutes ago, Northmount said:

f using pliers, use flat jaw type.  No grooves that may mark the needle and begin a crack causing a break if slightly twisted.  Straight pull, no bending action.

Just checked and noticed that my pliers are all grooved! Another stop in my shopping today. 

@zuludogthat is a lot of very good, detailed information. I do many of the things there, other things, not. I have not sharpened my awl. I will need to do that, a least a little. Now that I think of it, it feels a little blunt and needs to be forced.

About having the needles etc. all absolutely straight, I just discovered that recently when I  realised that a needle was bent and going somewhere else from where I was directing it. Changed it in a hurry.

About piercing the thread, I'm going to try that. I keep the thread long anyway and do not try to have one long thread for the entire side. So I can change the thread more frequently.

I work with a stitching pony too, a clam actually. But when the leather is very thick, it has been difficult. I'm hoping with the right needles, thread, sharpened awl and pliers, it will become easier.

I plan to get all the items mentioned here that I could use, including the smooth jawed pliers. 

@zuludogMaybe you could put this information up in a different thread so that other newbies can benefit from it.

 

[zuludog]

SUP - I'm flattered that you think my reply would benefit others!  But I don't know how to do that, other than typing & posting it all again. However I have no objection if the Moderators wish to do that

My basic pliers serve me well enough, but the best pliers with smooth or plastic jaws in the UK are from https://www.maunindustries.com I don't know if they are available in the USA or if there is an American equivalent

About sharpening an awl -- by chance, soon after I became interested in leatherwork I bumped into a retired traditional cobbler - in a pub, where else? - and asked him just how sharp should an awl be?

His reply was - Aahhh - so it goes about halfway through your finger before you notice!

Edited 2 hours ago by zuludog