Contributing Member Regis Posted May 4, 2007 Contributing Member Report Posted May 4, 2007 (edited) I've heard a lot of really good comments here on the Artisan 3000. But, before ploping down near $200 (double if I need to return) for shipping, I'd like to hear if anyone has experience with Ferdco Pro 440R Baby Bull with servo motor. Or, perhaps experience with both the Artisan Toro 3000 and the Baby Bull. I seriously doubt that I will ever go over the 1/2 inch limit of the Ferdco. I will only get a servo model as that has convinced me that I can run the machine as slow & safely as the manual Boss. I'd appreciate any comments, Regis Edited May 4, 2007 by Regis Quote God, Family, and Country (although liberals are attempting to destroy these in the USA)
Moderator Art Posted May 4, 2007 Moderator Report Posted May 4, 2007 Hi Regis, The 440R is a drop feed only machine. It just uses the feed dogs to move the work. If I was doing big belts, I would want a needle feed. While a couple hundred cheaper than the 3000, I think you get a lot more machine and the ability to do bigger work if you want with the 3000. The 440 kind of fits in between the 618 and the 3000, it would be a better machine with needle feed. FERDCO and Artisan are about the same machine wise and service wise (I have had both), although I will give the nod to Artisan for putting timing procedures in their manuals instead of just printing call us in the manual like FERDCO does. The only thing FERDCO made that was truly heads above the rest was the Ferdinand 900-B, made on a Consew 756 frame which was really a brute. They also made a 2000 Pro on a real Juki frame that was almost as good, tie either of those to a needle positioning motor like an Efka and you have the ultimate. I wouldn't pass either of those up at the right price and good condition. On another note Happy makes a 550 Watt servo motor now that is a little better than their 400 watt model. Number HSM-550 as opposed to the old HSM-400. The new motor is 3/4 horsepower and opposed to the old 1/2 hp. While the 400 is adequate for even the biggest stitchers (with speed reducer) the 550 has a little more umphf and a little variable speed dial instead of just a switch. These newer motors are $20 more or so but worth it. Jerry at Artisan used to be the importer for those motors, not sure of he still is. Art I've heard a lot of really good comments here on the Artisan 3000. But, before ploping down near $200 (double if I need to return) for shipping, I'd like to hear if anyone has experience with Ferdco Pro 440R Baby Bull with servo motor. Or, perhaps experience with both the Artisan Toro 3000 and the Baby Bull. I seriously doubt that I will ever go over the 1/2 inch limit of the Ferdco. I will only get a servo model as that has convinced me that I can run the machine as slow & safely as the manual Boss.I'd appreciate any comments, Regis Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Contributing Member Regis Posted May 4, 2007 Author Contributing Member Report Posted May 4, 2007 Quote: "On another note Happy makes a 550 Watt servo motor now that is a little better than their 400 watt model. Number HSM-550 as opposed to the old HSM-400. The new motor is 3/4 horsepower and opposed to the old 1/2 hp. " Art, Thanks for the sound advice. I don't quite undersand the above quote though? Is it related to Artisan, Ferdco, or other?? Regis Quote God, Family, and Country (although liberals are attempting to destroy these in the USA)
Moderator Art Posted May 4, 2007 Moderator Report Posted May 4, 2007 Hi Regis, Artisan or FERDCO should be able to get that for you. That might be a little overkill on the 618 or 1245 but it wouldn't hurt. I would definately get it on the 3000 if available. Art Quote: "On another note Happy makes a 550 Watt servo motor now that is a little better than their 400 watt model. Number HSM-550 as opposed to the old HSM-400. The new motor is 3/4 horsepower and opposed to the old 1/2 hp. "Art, Thanks for the sound advice. I don't quite undersand the above quote though? Is it related to Artisan, Ferdco, or other?? Regis Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members David Genadek Posted May 4, 2007 Members Report Posted May 4, 2007 Hi Regis,Artisan or FERDCO should be able to get that for you. That might be a little overkill on the 618 or 1245 but it wouldn't hurt. I would definately get it on the 3000 if available. Art Art have you tried a sewmo yet? My Amish crew just got one to replace my Adler that they had because I wanted it back. You can't tell it from the adler and in my mind for a heavy machine it is the best bargain out there. I haven't been around the artisens though but they look kind of like a toy to me. David Genadek Quote
Members David Genadek Posted May 4, 2007 Members Report Posted May 4, 2007 Quote: "On another note Happy makes a 550 Watt servo motor now that is a little better than their 400 watt model. Number HSM-550 as opposed to the old HSM-400. The new motor is 3/4 horsepower and opposed to the old 1/2 hp. "Art, Thanks for the sound advice. I don't quite undersand the above quote though? Is it related to Artisan, Ferdco, or other?? Regis Regis, I think the thing that might be confusing you is that your thinking about the machine as the total unit but the industry thinks in terms of Head, Table, Motor,accesories. So you pick the head ,or machine, you like then you figure out which table you want and then which motor. Then do you want any pnumatics thread trimmers, attachments on and on. In a production envoroment machines are set up for very specific uses so Machine guys are really used to customizing set ups. David Genadek Quote
Moderator Art Posted May 4, 2007 Moderator Report Posted May 4, 2007 David, The Sewmo 441 is a Juki 441 clone and the Sewmo 205-370 is an Adler clone. The artisan 4000 is a Juki 441 Clone and the Artisan 4000P is bigger than that (but still uses Juki 441 Parts). The FERDCO Pro 2000 is a Juki 441 clone and it goes on an on, none of these machines are "toys". The Artisan 3000 is a shorter arm version of the Artisan 4000. They all use chinese castings and parts except for the Artisan 4000P and the FERDCO 2000 Pro which use Japanese and U.S. parts, that is why they are more expensive. I have seen and used all of the above and they are all great machines, some more so than others. When I say "Chinese" I mean mostly Tiwanese not Mainlandese. There are also the Germans and the Japanese, Adler, Pfaff, Juki and Consew all make good heavy duty machines some like the Juki 441 need a little work to make them better leather machines (remove dogs new needle plate, some of the Juki 441s had a wide set of dogs that need modification). Distributors in the US (like Weaver and FERDCO used to modify the Juki 441) usually make these modifications to target a particular market. Needless to say, "good ole American Iron" like the Campbell, Randall, Union Lockstitch, No. 9, Luberto's Classic, Landis, and Singer machines, even without reverse still make better stitches than most of the new "foreign" machines out there today. I consider my Campbell and ASC No. 9 my "tinker toys", and use the heck out of my Artisans. Art Art have you tried a sewmo yet? My Amish crew just got one to replace my Adler that they had because I wanted it back. You can't tell it from the adler and in my mind for a heavy machine it is the best bargain out there. I haven't been around the artisens though but they look kind of like a toy to me. David Genadek Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members $$hobby Posted May 5, 2007 Members Report Posted May 5, 2007 before you spend any $$$ on a sewing machine, spend some time looking and thinking at what youre going to sew now and maybe in the future. i sew alot of corura on my machine and was asked to make some Taiko drum bags. They were 1/2" foam lined with Cordura on one side and Rip Stop nylon on the inside and nylon webbing for handles and such. I had to talk them into 1/4" foam to get under my machine. I spent way too much $$ on the machines i bought in the past and i settled for what i thougth would do, but i always ended up needed that 1/8"~1/4" more pressor foot height. also, whatever brand/model you choose, contact the nearest distributor/dealer in your area and try to test drive it. If not, ask for any persons that have purchased one in your area and ask to get a contact number. i would see if you can see and maybe try the machine before you buy. Quote Riding is a partnership. The horse lends you his strength, speed and grace, which are greater then yours. For your part you give him your guidance, intelligence and understanding, which are greater then his. Togeather you can achieve a richness that alone neither can. - Lucy Rees, The Horse's Mind
BruceGibson Posted May 5, 2007 Report Posted May 5, 2007 If I were in this position, knowing what I know now, I'd go with the Artisan Toro 3000. I have a 4000P that everyone here knows I'm totally satisfied with. Kevin, "K-Man" uses his 3000's continually and endorses them. I use my 4000 to punch through two layers of 13/15 oz skirting plus a layer of 3/4" sheepskin, and it handles that like a walk in the park. I think the 3000 would handle (easily) the projects you're doing now, plus have the capacity to take on most anything you'll want to do in the future. Quote "Don't squat with your spurs on." www.GibsonLeather.com
Contributing Member Regis Posted May 5, 2007 Author Contributing Member Report Posted May 5, 2007 (edited) I appreciate all the input/discussion and I wish there was a dealer/distributor within a couple hundred miles. I got side tracked some with Boss & Bull but, now I'm ready to move on and get the 3000. It does seem most versatile for my non-production-line sewing that I'll be doing for the next few years ( 4-9 oz). Thanks to all, Regis Edited May 5, 2007 by Regis Quote God, Family, and Country (although liberals are attempting to destroy these in the USA)
Members David Genadek Posted May 5, 2007 Members Report Posted May 5, 2007 Art, Somehow I thought you would know the real scoop. I have been very happy with my Adler 205-370 for heavier work. I've had it 14 years I got it from Crates Leather Company and I think it was about 5 years old when I got it from them. I have had to time it a few times when people have run it in to buckles and such but I have never had to do a major tear down with it. I used to have a Ferdinand 988 when he first came out with them. I think he used to build from Adler heads and the first two heads he sent just didn't cut it. The needle system was more than the machine could handle. Then he swtiched to useing Consew 206 heads and that 988 was a great machine and the most versitale machine I have had. I liked my Cambell but got rid of it because the learning curve on it was to tough for employees. I worked one place where we ran Landis 16s and they were a fine machine if you were used to them but for production I think it is tough to beat the Adler on the heavy work. The needle awl machines give a great stitch but you have to know how to talk nice to them or they have troubles. I haven't used the Juki or Artisen machines though. I will have to take a look at them. David Genadek David,The Sewmo 441 is a Juki 441 clone and the Sewmo 205-370 is an Adler clone. The artisan 4000 is a Juki 441 Clone and the Artisan 4000P is bigger than that (but still uses Juki 441 Parts). The FERDCO Pro 2000 is a Juki 441 clone and it goes on an on, none of these machines are "toys". The Artisan 3000 is a shorter arm version of the Artisan 4000. They all use chinese castings and parts except for the Artisan 4000P and the FERDCO 2000 Pro which use Japanese and U.S. parts, that is why they are more expensive. I have seen and used all of the above and they are all great machines, some more so than others. When I say "Chinese" I mean mostly Tiwanese not Mainlandese. There are also the Germans and the Japanese, Adler, Pfaff, Juki and Consew all make good heavy duty machines some like the Juki 441 need a little work to make them better leather machines (remove dogs new needle plate, some of the Juki 441s had a wide set of dogs that need modification). Distributors in the US (like Weaver and FERDCO used to modify the Juki 441) usually make these modifications to target a particular market. Needless to say, "good ole American Iron" like the Campbell, Randall, Union Lockstitch, No. 9, Luberto's Classic, Landis, and Singer machines, even without reverse still make better stitches than most of the new "foreign" machines out there today. I consider my Campbell and ASC No. 9 my "tinker toys", and use the heck out of my Artisans. Art Quote
Moderator Art Posted May 7, 2007 Moderator Report Posted May 7, 2007 Hi David, Nice thing about the Adler is you can buy factory timing gauges for them. Timing is not a particular recurring problem with Adlers, but if you are doing harness work, running over hardware is not an uncommon thing. Adlers and Pfaffs are great machines, I was wondering when the clones would arrive. I have yet to see the new machine from Weaver, it looks like an Adler Clone but still pretty high in price, close to an Adler. Most of the major distributors in the US make a clone with higher quality parts than their standard product, some only make one grade. For casual use the lower grades are fine; if you are going to run them hard, get the higher grade machine, there will be less trouble. The only reason I don't talk about Adler and Pfaff more is their high cost. Would I buy one? Oh Yeah. Art Art, Somehow I thought you would know the real scoop. I have been very happy with my Adler 205-370 for heavier work. I've had it 14 years I got it from Crates Leather Company and I think it was about 5 years old when I got it from them. I have had to time it a few times when people have run it in to buckles and such but I have never had to do a major tear down with it. I used to have a Ferdinand 988 when he first came out with them. I think he used to build from Adler heads and the first two heads he sent just didn't cut it. The needle system was more than the machine could handle. Then he swtiched to useing Consew 206 heads and that 988 was a great machine and the most versitale machine I have had. I liked my Cambell but got rid of it because the learning curve on it was to tough for employees. I worked one place where we ran Landis 16s and they were a fine machine if you were used to them but for production I think it is tough to beat the Adler on the heavy work. The needle awl machines give a great stitch but you have to know how to talk nice to them or they have troubles. I haven't used the Juki or Artisen machines though. I will have to take a look at them. David Genadek Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members K-Man Posted May 7, 2007 Members Report Posted May 7, 2007 (edited) Regis: You're welcome to come down and visit me anytime you'd like and try out my Artisan 3000's. We're just east of Tampa. And we're at the shop Monday-Saturday, but if a Sunday would work better for you, we can do that, too. Let me know. Edited May 7, 2007 by K-Man Quote
Contributing Member Regis Posted May 7, 2007 Author Contributing Member Report Posted May 7, 2007 K-Man, That would be terrific and thanks for the offer. I'll PM you. Regis Quote God, Family, and Country (although liberals are attempting to destroy these in the USA)
Members lute Posted August 10, 2007 Members Report Posted August 10, 2007 "They also made a 2000 Pro on a real Juki frame that was almost as good, tie either of those to a needle positioning motor like an Efka and you have the ultimate. I wouldn't pass either of those up at the right price and good condition." Art, could you tell us about needle positioning motors? I need to upgrade my old squealing clutch motor and I'm curious about these. Thanks, Lute Quote
Moderator Art Posted August 10, 2007 Moderator Report Posted August 10, 2007 Hi Lute, Need positioning motors are DC or Servo motors that are computer driven. You program them to do different things like leaving the needle up or down (then up a little bit to make loop and realease foot), they usually complete a whole cycle in needle-up (toe down on pedal and release) or needle needle-down (heel down on pedal and hold). You can also make some of them do crazy things like sewing x number of stitches and then back-tacking x stitches then thread clipping, you need control actuators for this though. I have only seen needle up and down and foot lift for leather machines. There are Chinese, Japanese, and German versions of these escalating in price. Efka is probably the best and most expensive. I have seen the DC1600 used on leather machines, you need the least complex controller, they have ones that do everything but go to the men's room for you. Also, with Efka and maybe others there is a decent market in refurbed motors and they are usually as good as a new shiny one at half the price. Contact MIM Industrial Sewing for more info about these motors. Art "They also made a 2000 Pro on a real Juki frame that was almost as good, tie either of those to a needle positioning motor like an Efka and you have the ultimate. I wouldn't pass either of those up at the right price and good condition."Art, could you tell us about needle positioning motors? I need to upgrade my old squealing clutch motor and I'm curious about these. Thanks, Lute Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
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