Making an authentic sword scabbard

[UKRay]

This past few weeks I have had a few sword scabbards in for restoration. In the main this is complex, time consuming and technically challenging work - which, to be honest, is just how I like it as every one presents its own set of problems and I never get bored working out how to do the jobs.

I have now hit a problem that I've never come across before as I need to completely reconstruct a thin leather scabbard (2mm thick leather) for a sword that is almost three feet long.

The original (rotten and crumbling) leather looks and feels like veg tan but it is considerably stiffer in texture - in other words the original finished scabbard must have been very rigid - almost solid to the touch.

Does anyone know anything about the way scabbard leather might have been treated to make it stiff and hard to the touch? I wondered if it had been painted with shellac? The original surface of the leather I have removed is still fairly rigid even now - both inside and outside - more than 200 years after it was made..

I have tried to reproduce this using all kinds of treatments including neat-lac and a number of similar products but it doesn't feel the same. Remember we are talking about a tube of leather that is three foot long and no more than 3/4" wide so there isn't much room to get in there with a paintbrush.

Do you think they painted the inside first and then stitched it up afterwards? Remember that this is a butt jointed job and the stitches have to be buried inside the leather otherwise the sword would chafe through them. It is possibly worth noting that it takes me about two or three hours to hand-stitch one of these things so whatever was painted on would need to remain 'liquid' for that time and cope with the seam being hammered flat and the tube shaped to fit neatly around the sword blade without sticking to the costly and highly decorated and blued metalwork.

In addition because the scabbard was part of a uniform it would have had a very presentable finish - so coating with something like tar isn't an option - or is it? Does anyone know how this might have been done?

Anyone got any thoughts? It is a fascinating puzzle.

[badger]

Hi Ray,

Interesting job, sure enough.

I suspect the still-soft stitched scabbard has been placed on a slim former (possibly the sword itself wrapped in greased paper)while the outside was finished. Then the goop, whatever it is, tipped in and swilled about then tipped out and the scabbard left to drip.

I'm not saying this is the way it was done, just how I would approach it.

Many old glues, based in fish and mammal (horse and cow) proteins, cross-link and form a rigid film after they dry in air. Fish glue goes very stiff and solid. Have you seen a dried fish? like a rock.

After the fish glue hardens it can be varnished to protect it from moisture.

Dunno............

Cheers,

Karl

Edited January 27, 2009 by badger

[Dwight]

This past few weeks I have had a few sword scabbards in for restoration. In the main this is complex, time consuming and technically challenging work - which, to be honest, is just how I like it as every one presents its own set of problems and I never get bored working out how to do the jobs.

I have now hit a problem that I've never come across before as I need to completely reconstruct a thin leather scabbard (2mm thick leather) for a sword that is almost three feet long.

The original (rotten and crumbling) leather looks and feels like veg tan but it is considerably stiffer in texture - in other words the original finished scabbard must have been very rigid - almost solid to the touch.

Does anyone know anything about the way scabbard leather might have been treated to make it stiff and hard to the touch? I wondered if it had been painted with shellac? The original surface of the leather I have removed is still fairly rigid even now - both inside and outside - more than 200 years after it was made..

I have tried to reproduce this using all kinds of treatments including neat-lac and a number of similar products but it doesn't feel the same. Remember we are talking about a tube of leather that is three foot long and no more than 3/4" wide so there isn't much room to get in there with a paintbrush.

Do you think they painted the inside first and then stitched it up afterwards? Remember that this is a butt jointed job and the stitches have to be buried inside the leather otherwise the sword would chafe through them. It is possibly worth noting that it takes me about two or three hours to hand-stitch one of these things so whatever was painted on would need to remain 'liquid' for that time and cope with the seam being hammered flat and the tube shaped to fit neatly around the sword blade without sticking to the costly and highly decorated and blued metalwork.

In addition because the scabbard was part of a uniform it would have had a very presentable finish - so coating with something like tar isn't an option - or is it? Does anyone know how this might have been done?

Anyone got any thoughts? It is a fascinating puzzle.

Ray, . . . I confess to not knowing how it was done, . . . but:, . . . a few years back I was involved in a discussion of armor, armoring, etc. and how it was done in the "old days".

One person mentioned taking very heavy leather, . . . cutting it to shape, . . . and literally immersing it in liquid beeswax, . . . forming it to the proper shape and allowing it to cool and harden. I guess this was actually formed to the individual wearer (can you imagine laying down while your local armourer "fits" you with a piece of leather that just came out of a boiling cauldron of beeswax ?)

So just for fun, . . . we heated up some parrafin, . . . threw a piece of 12 oz or so of leather in the stuff, . . . left it in until it had soaked up the parrafin, . . . fished it out, . . . and when it dried, . . . it was almost a rock, it was so hard.

I don't know if that process would work for you, . . . but a knife sheath done the same way would be a good practice piece, . . . and if it works as good on the knife sheath as it did on our scrap piece, . . . you'ld do all right.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Vikti]

What kind of sword it it? Rapier, broadsword, long sword?

Have you tried the V & A Museum in London? I know a few SCA people who have gone to/contacted them with questions and the V & A helps them out to the best of their ability. Maybe they have something similar to what your trying to make and maybe give you some pointer on how it could be made.

[tashabear]

Are you sure it's not cuirbouilli?

(can you imagine laying down while your local armourer "fits" you with a piece of leather that just came out of a boiling cauldron of beeswax ?)

Sure. I've seen SCA armorers fit people with ABS breastplates straight out of the oven. It's not like they make you do it right onto your nekkid chest, anyway; they'd probably have fit the bits either over a form, like a last, or had the individual wear a gambeson.

Edited January 27, 2009 by tashabear

[scottishshoemaker]

Ray I have done one qiute recently . Took a piece of 3mm oak bark shoulder, soaked in a bath over night, placed round sword hand stitched then boned for all my life. Boneing squeezes out excess leather and give the leather its strength and shine, if you want a dark colour don't use oxalic acid, if you want it lighter use acid. You can always use atest piece to see what colour you get when finished. Hope it helps. Sorry also used a piece of orthoside to protect sword from water.

[UKRay]

Apologies if this thread is turning into a 'stream of conciousness' thing, but I often find it easier to think things through by writing them down...

I think boiling water had something to do with the process but I am confident it is not 'old school' cuir bouilli for a number of reasons, the main one being that the original leather almost certainly wasn't boiled and then 'formed' it was simply cut out, stitched and hammered flat then trimmed to fit the metal mounts. I'm not saying the thing wasn't dunked in boiling water to harden it after it was made but that would have been quite an undertaking for a single scabbard when all water was heated over wood fires.

My guess is that if boiling water had been used it was poured over and through the scabbard and the sword inserted as a former - now that is definitely possible. Things against cuir bouilli also include the nature of leather 200+ years ago. We have all experienced that modern leather stretches in very strange and unpredictable ways sometimes - how much worse would it have been all those years ago. How could you gauge how much wet leather would stretch or shrink?

Remember also that this leather was pretty consistent in thickness and the stitching was superb which suggests that the guy who made the scabbard was a better than average craftsperson. I can't see them dunking a valuable job in boiling water and taking a chance on it turning out okay.

Here is a quick refresher on modern cuir bouilli thinking courtesy of Wikipedia:

Basically Cuir Bouilli is a means of making hardened and stiffened leather. Although there is some disagreement among some leatherworkers as to how this is accomplished, there is a significant amount of evidence to think that it was done by molding wet vegetable tanned leather. This leather can be formed into any number of forms, which, on drying, will retain that shape. The wet leather can be set more firmly by drying it under moderate heat, the degree of rigidity obtained being determined by the drying temperature.

A faster method, which produces extremely hard and rigid shapes, is to dip the molded leather into boiling water for anywhere from 20 to 120 seconds. This technique causes the partial melting of the fixed tannin aggregates in the leather, making them plastic, causing them to flow and redistribute themselves throughout the fiber network of the leather. On cooling, the fibers become embedded in what can best be called a tough, three-dimensional, polymer network or resin, somewhat similar to the materials made by condensing formaldehyde with substances such as phenol, urea or melamine.

Now that sounds distinctly possible so thanks for the clue, Tasha. I still think there is more to this though...

The idea that the leather could have boned to a hard finish is interesting and definitely possible but the texture and shape of the surviving bits suggest it was simply cut to size very acurately and then stitched and hammered. There is no smoothing that I would associate with boned leather - Now I could very easily be wrong, scottishshoemaker - but somehow...

The next question is how would the scabbard have been finished to retain this hard shell. I have just realised that I haven't told you what sort of sword it is - the sword is almost a twin to the one I posted a week or so ago. A Royal Navy sword that would have been carried by an officer. Not a hacking tool like a cutlass but something a lot more expensive and much lighter.

The leather would have been very good quality to survive a life at sea. The metal fittings, the throat and the suspension loop that slung the scabbard from a belt or baldrick - sorry I don't know the technical term for this specific bit of kit - are tight fitting but do not look 'made to measure' therefore this scabbard was almost certainly one of many. Was it mass produced? How did it survive this long?

This is where I think Karl's old fish/bone glue comes into play - but is a clear fish glue waterproof? You mention varnish Karl, but was this around 200 years ago so would they have used something like shellac? Remember this was for a Naval officer who couldn't afford an attack of the droops on parade. Ships of the Line (think HMS Victory - http://www.history.uk.com/articles/index.php?archive=50) are nasty damp things that are almost as wet inside as out. Anyone got any more ideas?

Thanks for the suggestion of the V&A, Vikti, for anyone who hasn't been there it is an absolute treasure trove of wonderful leathery things. I try to visit every time I'm in London but don't have any contacts in the conservation department. I'll rectify that the first chance I get.

Dwight, you have hit on the right method but, I fear not the solution! The wax idea was a good one for at least an hour - but it didn't make the cut... Now mock ups are a different story - I have already made several mock ups - my workroom is littered with 'em - and will make several more to get this right. But you know what they say about a trouble shared? LOL

[ChuckBurrows]

Ray - I'll add more later but a few things........

1) First clear you're mind of the mis-conception ( a widely held one) that folks 200 years ago were not technical - large scale factories of all types including weapons factories were in place as early as the middle ages. Water power and later steam power (mid-1700's) were in use. Take a look at some of the old engravings/woodcuts and you can see how technology was used.

2) re: cuir bouilli - http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~Marc-Carlson/leather/hl.html one of the best examinations on line - note that boiling is not necessarily needed or wished for - leather polymerizes (basically turns into a form of hide glue) at around 160° F - the article gives more specific info - once hard PROPERLY made cuir bouilli is virtually unable to be softened since as noted it polymerizes and is this changed at the molecular level

3) re varnish: yes they had varnish it goes a long ways back - there were two types, linseed oil based and spirit based - for more see the history of violin varnishes

4) I have both repaired originals and made several period sheaths and will explain more later - got things going in the shop right now - basic procedure was to sew while cased over a form (no pounding flat) , dry at the proper heat to harden, finish, apply fittings.........

hope this helps........

[tonyc1]

I'm sure that some of the old leatherworkers knew more about how to do some things than we give them credit. These techniques have just been lost as the use for them faded and this would not only apply to scabbards, but dozens of things!

Tony.

[UKRay]

Ray - I'll add more later but a few things........

1) First clear you're mind of the mis-conception ( a widely held one) that folks 200 years ago were not technical - large scale factories of all types including weapons factories were in place as early as the middle ages. Water power and later steam power (mid-1700's) were in use. Take a look at some of the old engravings/woodcuts and you can see how technology was used.

2) re: cuir bouilli - http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~Marc-Carlson/leather/hl.html one of the best examinations on line - note that boiling is not necessarily needed or wished for - leather polymerizes (basically turns into a form of hide glue) at around 160° F - the article gives more specific info - once hard PROPERLY made cuir bouilli is virtually unable to be softened since as noted it polymerizes and is this changed at the molecular level

3) re varnish: yes they had varnish it goes a long ways back - there were two types, linseed oil based and spirit based - for more see the history of violin varnishes

4) I have both repaired originals and made several period sheaths and will explain more later - got things going in the shop right now - basic procedure was to sew while cased over a form (no pounding flat) , dry at the proper heat to harden, finish, apply fittings.........

hope this helps........

Many thanks Chuck - but no historical misconceptions here, check out my 'day job' website: www.history.uk.com. If you look closely you may even find some of my leatherwork!

After some more research, I completely agree with your assessment of the optimum temperature for cuir bouilli and I have found references to varnish as far back as the 9th century but my concern was whether they would have had a similar composition to the varnish we know today. I now reckon it was pretty much the same stuff but was it used on scabbards?

Heat would certainly harden the leather and you are almost certainly right about needing to use a former of some kind; but I can't entirely agree about no pounding. If you butt joint the long sides of a scabbard and use a curved awl to pierce and stitch through the middle of the leather, surely you need to hammer the stitching flat to get rid of the lumps and bumps and make the seam acceptable? I'm very keen to learn a better way if you know one!

So what DID they use to finish the job with? Was it varnish, fish glue or what?

Another thing I'm keen to know about is how to get a tight fitting, pre-made solid metal fitting with sharp edges to slide half-way down a rock hard, nicely finished scabbard without damaging the surface. Not impossible I guess, but very tricky - perhaps you can enlighten me about that one too as I'm pretty sure it won't be easy!

[fishguy]

My advice is to listen to Chuck

Water or wax hardening, or even some combination sound likely in the original. The wax would have added waterproofing and could be buffed up nicely. Modern sheath makers often have hot dip concoctions formulated from beeswax, pine resin and various other materials that they dip the finished sheaths into to make them rigid and waterproof.

I would say that the scabbard was almost certainly stitched up on some sort of form, probably wood. I suspect that it may have even been stitched up on a straight form, then wetted and put onto a curved form (much easier fabrication that way) with proper boning and smoothing, no wrinkles would be visible.

As for the stitches, if you make a groove on each side for the emergent loops to lie in it will smooth it out quite a bit. You will also need to use pretty thin thread. I use a butt stitch on quivers and it lies down quite nicely (of course that is more like 3-5 mm leather too). Going down the seam with a shoemaker's hammer while the leather is damp and the form is still in place would probably make them lie down pretty well too.

As for the fittings, why not fit them while the leather is still damp and pliable?

[UKRay]

My advice is to listen to Chuck

Water or wax hardening, or even some combination sound likely in the original. The wax would have added waterproofing and could be buffed up nicely. Modern sheath makers often have hot dip concoctions formulated from beeswax, pine resin and various other materials that they dip the finished sheaths into to make them rigid and waterproof.

I would say that the scabbard was almost certainly stitched up on some sort of form, probably wood. I suspect that it may have even been stitched up on a straight form, then wetted and put onto a curved form (much easier fabrication that way) with proper boning and smoothing, no wrinkles would be visible.

As for the stitches, if you make a groove on each side for the emergent loops to lie in it will smooth it out quite a bit. You will also need to use pretty thin thread. I use a butt stitch on quivers and it lies down quite nicely (of course that is more like 3-5 mm leather too). Going down the seam with a shoemaker's hammer while the leather is damp and the form is still in place would probably make them lie down pretty well too.

As for the fittings, why not fit them while the leather is still damp and pliable?

All really helpful ideas, fishguy, especially about the sheath maker's dip.

I'm not quite sure how the curved form comes into it as this is a straight Naval sword not a cutlass. Do you mean a former to open out the 'tube'? Sorry, but I haven't understood.

Like you, I usually make a groove or sometimes a slit for 'invisible' work for the stitches to lie in but this leather is around 2mm thick so you can't take it too deep without affecting the strength of the work. Tapping the seams flat is just how I was taught (I think I referred to it as pounding earlier but this was simply a figure of speech) , but maybe Chuck knows a different way. I can see that boning would do a similar job if you spend enough time and energy at it - I tend to prefer the leisurely approach! LOL

One thing that has just occured to me is that old style leather was often less supple than modern leather - maybe it was inherently stiffer? Anyone got any thoughts on that?

I'm really looking forward to what Chuck has to say as his work is legendary, even over here in the UK.

BTW: I am inclined to slide the fittings on whilst the leather is wet too (I have done one or two of these before) but Chuck gave a specific sequence of events in his post and I am keen to hear how he works.

[fishguy]

All really helpful ideas, fishguy, especially about the sheath maker's dip.

I'm not quite sure how the curved form comes into it as this is a straight Naval sword not a cutlass. Do you mean a former to open out the 'tube'? Sorry, but I haven't understood.

Like you, I usually make a groove or sometimes a slit for 'invisible' work for the stitches to lie in but this leather is around 2mm thick so you can't take it too deep without affecting the strength of the work. Tapping the seams flat is just how I was taught (I think I referred to it as pounding earlier but this was simply a figure of speech) , but maybe Chuck knows a different way. I can see that boning would do a similar job if you spend enough time and energy at it - I tend to prefer the leisurely approach! LOL

One thing that has just occured to me is that old style leather was often less supple than modern leather - maybe it was inherently stiffer? Anyone got any thoughts on that?

I'm really looking forward to what Chuck has to say as his work is legendary, even over here in the UK.

BTW: I am inclined to slide the fittings on whilst the leather is wet too (I have done one or two of these before) but Chuck gave a specific sequence of events in his post and I am keen to hear how he works.

I had visualized a curved sword like a saber. Go with Chuck, he is the man!

[ChuckBurrows]

I'm on the run so only have a moment -

1) My sequence does not have to be specific per se - adapt as needed

2) Ray can you post a pic of the fittings by chance - while some fittings look to be all of one piece many were "squeezed" shut after attaching although they look as if of one piece.

3) Part of my info come from a bit later period - how bayonet scabbards were made in the late 18th/early 19th centuries, but researching backwards there were enough hints to show it was the same basic procedures from about the late 15th century on (most medieval period and earlier scabbards were leather covered wood). With bayonet scabbards they were formed over metal........

One thing that has just occured to me is that old style leather was often less supple than modern leather - maybe it was inherently stiffer?

This is a distinct possibility and may in fact be that they used so-called half-tanned leather which in and of itself dries hard without "boiling".

more later got to run........

Edited January 28, 2009 by ChuckBurrows

[UKRay]

Chuck - and all,

I had a feeling the sequence thing wasn't going to work in this instance. I finished the job by fitting the metalwork onto wet leather and shaping the leather around the metal to keep it in place. Unfortunately I completed and returned the job to the client without photographing the fittings (I have been so busy I completely forgot to do it until it was too late...) but you were quite right, the central supporting ring was split and squeezed into place after the job was completed. It was then painted over with a varnish-like substance to cover the join. I didn't even think to look for a split as I was convinced it was a solid piece of metal. Thanks for that one.

The leather I used was fairly standard veg tan. I split it down from 3.5mm thick to around 2mm thick and stitched up my butt jointed tube using concealed stitching (in other words stitched inside a knife cut) and then boned it down to hide the join. I like this type of join but it is a fair bit more work and, IMHO, the hammered butt joint is slightly more decorative. Personal preference I guess.

I accept that many old scabbards were covered wood but this scabbard wasn't. I stripped the original myself and it was simply a leather tube. I think the idea of half-cured leather is a good one and I'll try to find some half cured oak bark tanned leather for the next one to see if there is an appreciable difference.

I have tried the hot water process on a couple of offcuts and I'm now convinced that the correct tanning is part of the solution. In the end I simply ran very hot water, straight from the bath faucet, through the tube for a few minutes and, having slipped the fittings into place, moulded the scabbard using my long steel bars. Warning: If you plan on doing this, wash your dirty workshop hands thoroughly as dye stains on the bath mean I'm forbidden to play in the bathroom again...

I have identified a couple of 'specialist' tools and useful materials that may be useful if anyone plans on doing this kind of thing. Start out by getting several 3ft lengths of mild steel in different widths and appropriate thicknesses (I use 1/8th thick x 1/2" 3/4" and 1" wide steel) as you will need to form the scabbard around something and the sword is often too precious or fragile to risk, I made do with a set of steel loop sticks for a while but found the length issues irritated me - hence the investment in the long bits. Curved swords simply require a curved former so heat up your metal and give it an appropriate bend to match the original sword.

Invest in a few curved awls of different sizes and learn how to use them properly. You must be able to sew the full length of your scabbard without a single mistake or slip of the awl. Practise is the only way to learn. Mistakes look horrible and IMHO are not acceptable.

As I'm fortunate enoughto have a silversmithing bench in my workroom I am able to silver solder broken fittings and heat up small pieces of metal to straighten them. I use a Sieverts gas torch for most of my silver work but a relatively cheap, fine flame 'can type' gas torch is handy for difficult areas.

To make the job a lot easier try using silver paste flux rather than borax. This stuff comes in a hypodermic style syringe and you simply put a squirt on your job and heat it to make a perfect joint. Much easier than conventional methods although the joint isn't always as strong.

Invest in a bench anvil if you haven't already got one. make sure it has a nice pointed 'nose' as you may need to slip fittings over this to re-shape them.

Hope this helps.

[Go2Tex]

I ran across this thread doing a search for sword scabbards, as I recently had a project myself to replace the leather scabbard for a Civil War era sword. I ran into the same issue with the scabbard being too floppy and I too returned the finished job to the customer without taking photos. But I did manage to get some pics of the original scabbard, in pieces, with the brass fittings and the sword.

I found that the scabbard was not stitched, but simply lap skived and most likely glued and held in place by the fittings which had set screws, indicating that they were slid onto the leather, and not formed around it. The fittings were very smooth on the inside and made no marks on the leather, even after being finished.

The original leather was very hard and brittle, which of course was the reason for the replacement as old leather does get hard and brittle with age. It also cracks and falls apart, as this one did when trying to remove the fittings. So, it is hard to tell just how firm the original scabbard was when new but obviously it would need to hold it's shape upon withdrawing the sword, which presents the problem at hand;

....How to make it stiff enough without being too thick or brittle. The brass fitting at the tip of the sword was heavy and tended to cause the scabbard to droop quite noticeably with the sword removed.

My particular customer was not too concerned about the floppness as it was merely for display and a dowel placed inside would do the trick for her, as the sword would be displayed removed from the scabbard.

However, I was and still am concerned, as it just wasn't quite right. In reading this entire thread, I noticed a comment regarding the half tanned leather. As it just so happens, I just ran across a source of this very type of leather. The Clayton Leather Co, through their USA affiliate, Booth and Company Leather Traders USA lists a half tanned, rawhide center product. "Rawhide, a partly tanned leather with a raw streak in the centre for added strength, used for saddlery strap leathers."

http://www.claytonleather.com/saddlery.htm

So, whether or not this leather would be suitable for a leather scabbard is hard to say, but I suspect this would be worth checking out. The procedure of pouring very hot water, perhaps a mixture containing wax into the formed leather tube, or soaking it, and then drying under heat has even more appeal.

Another way of producing a rather rigid leather, though also quite brittle, as I found out when trying to bend it, was achieved by emersing the leather in baking soda and drying in the hot summer sun. It was quite dark as well and appeared burned, which I suspect it was.(it gets damn hot down here in south Texas). So, perhaps some trial and error could produce the amount of rigidity desired without being too brittle.