Heavily Tooled?

[JohnBarton]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. One of my competitors is selling a case that they are advertising as "heavily tooled" when it is in fact machine embossed. Here is the case:

I have received an email asking me to justify my prices from an interested customer because he says that this one has a lot of tooling and is cheaper than mine. My quandary is that I don't want to speak of this case or it's seller in a negative way and I have brought it to the seller's attention that I feel the insinuation is that the case is "hand tooled" since no one else describes die embossed leather as "heavily tooled". The seller has informed me that he and the maker consider this to be tooled, although on the maker's site they don't say that, they say embossed. So, to me, using the description "heavily tooled" is misleading even though it may be technically accurate.

In comparison if I were to say something is "heavily tooled" (which I wouldn't) then I would use something like this as an example;

My question to you all are these;

1. What are the proper descriptions of leather decorating methods, as in what are the commonly understood terms?

2. Should I perhaps put something on my website that defines these terms with examples?

3. How would you proceed with this comparison request?

Thanks for any help,

John

[jbird]

he is trying in a round about way to make it seem like it's tooled but how many folks no the difference not many So that's very incorrect to say heavly tooled and in my opinion he knows this, but you don't have to maline him just make it clear very clear what the difference is and how much more you are getting with yours. My 1 1/2 cents worth

Josh

Edited January 29, 2009 by jbird

[Bree]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. One of my competitors is selling a case that they are advertising as "heavily tooled" when it is in fact machine embossed. Here is the case:

I have received an email asking me to justify my prices from an interested customer because he says that this one has a lot of tooling and is cheaper than mine. My quandary is that I don't want to speak of this case or it's seller in a negative way and I have brought it to the seller's attention that I feel the insinuation is that the case is "hand tooled" since no one else describes die embossed leather as "heavily tooled". The seller has informed me that he and the maker consider this to be tooled, although on the maker's site they don't say that, they say embossed. So, to me, using the description "heavily tooled" is misleading even though it may be technically accurate.

In comparison if I were to say something is "heavily tooled" (which I wouldn't) then I would use something like this as an example;

My question to you all are these;

1. What are the proper descriptions of leather decorating methods, as in what are the commonly understood terms?

2. Should I perhaps put something on my website that defines these terms with examples?

3. How would you proceed with this comparison request?

Thanks for any help,

John

John...

Business is business. You are well within your rights to show what a genuine tooled piece of leather looks like and explain exactly how much time goes into real tooling vs running the leather through an embosser. When your competitor engages in questionable and unethical business practices, he is not due white gloves treatment by you. He sure didn't give that treatment to you did he?

Demonstrating what real tooling is vs imitation tooling is not unethical. It is factual and proper. I would share photos of the real deal versus imitation as well as a full explanation. You can do that and stay on the high road.

My $.02.

[CitizenKate]

I have received an email asking me to justify my prices from an interested customer because he says that this one has a lot of tooling and is cheaper than mine. My quandary is that I don't want to speak of this case or it's seller in a negative way and I have brought it to the seller's attention that I feel the insinuation is that the case is "hand tooled" since no one else describes die embossed leather as "heavily tooled". The seller has informed me that he and the maker consider this to be tooled, although on the maker's site they don't say that, they say embossed. So, to me, using the description "heavily tooled" is misleading even though it may be technically accurate.

Regardless of what terminology the seller and/or maker choose to describe the work, one is in fact done with a machine, and the other is done with hand-held tools. From the buyer's perspective, the difference it would make to them, is that the work done by hand will have more depth and clarity, and will hold up better over time.

Kate

[rawhide1]

John

I'd tell my customer you get what ya pay for. I mean hell my 5y/o could tell the difference in craftsmanship between the two. I would think with the quality of your work you wouldn't have to explain anything. Just my .02 cents

Mike

[CitizenKate]

Business is business. You are well within your rights to show what a genuine tooled piece of leather looks like and explain exactly how much time goes into real tooling vs running the leather through an embosser. When your competitor engages in questionable and unethical business practices, he is not due white gloves treatment by you. He sure didn't give that treatment to you did he?

I agree, but I also think it's a good reflection on John that he is seeking a way to distinguish his own work without badmouthing the competition.

Kate

[JohnBarton]

I agree, but I also think it's a good reflection on John that he is seeking a way to distinguish his own work without badmouthing the competition.

Kate

Ashamedly, I haven't always taken the high road in these matters but I am trying to turn over a new leaf. :-)

[kiwidownunder]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. One of my competitors is selling a case that they are advertising as "heavily tooled" when it is in fact machine embossed. Here is the case:

I have received an email asking me to justify my prices from an interested customer because he says that this one has a lot of tooling and is cheaper than mine. My quandary is that I don't want to speak of this case or it's seller in a negative way and I have brought it to the seller's attention that I feel the insinuation is that the case is "hand tooled" since no one else describes die embossed leather as "heavily tooled". The seller has informed me that he and the maker consider this to be tooled, although on the maker's site they don't say that, they say embossed. So, to me, using the description "heavily tooled" is misleading even though it may be technically accurate.

In comparison if I were to say something is "heavily tooled" (which I wouldn't) then I would use something like this as an example;

My question to you all are these;

1. What are the proper descriptions of leather decorating methods, as in what are the commonly understood terms?

2. Should I perhaps put something on my website that defines these terms with examples?

3. How would you proceed with this comparison request?

Thanks for any help,

John

My thoughts are that when someone comes to me and asks that question , I would tell them --

Well my work is completely hand tooled, meaning that I cut the leather with a blade, which makes a very clear edge between the design and the background. If you were to run your fingers over the design you will feel the depth and sharpness that hand tooling leaves. Also once the design is finished the depth of colour in an embossed background has no real difference to the floral of the piece.

Remember that in todays market those embossed pieces, make our hand crafted picecs very expensive and, you know the average person has no idea how long it takes for someone to create a true work of quality.

Kiwi.

[jbird]

I think it can be done in way that is honorable in my mind it's all a matter of principal and weather work or other thing you can do it in way that's respectable and honest.

Josh

[K-Man]

Don't ya just hate it when a competitor (or not) makes a play on words in order to justify their existence? My experience has often been that the cheaply made product is priced higher than my prices for a matching or similar product.

Here's what I would do. I'd set up a spot on my website for educating the general public. Show samples of hand-tooled and embossed patterns on leather, include some close up shots of each. Explain briefly, yet succinctly, the differences between the two. Explain how the process is achieved in both instances. If possible, show pics of what embossed leather looks like new, and what it looks like after a couple of years. Huge difference with respect to the durability/maintaining pattern clarity between embossed and expertly hand-tooled leather. Keep your responses on an informational/educational level. That way you're not taking "digs" at the competition. It's likely that you'll aggravate the heck of the competition because you've exposed their scam, but you've done nothing more than educate the customer with information that they could ultimately find out through their own research. Integrity is the name of the game here. There's a ton of businesses/competitors out there who choose not to follow that line - don't be one of them.

In this instant case, I'd show the potential customer detailed pics of what your tooled cases exhibit. Tell the customer what type of leather/materials you use, who the artisan is that does the tooling, and encourage them to do some research on those materials and bios. If they've got a lick of sense (and most do), they'll be back to you with the results of their search and ordering one of your cases.

Good luck to you.

[Denise]

The term "individually hand tooled" carries some weight. I like K-Man's idea of the educational area of your website. Concentrating on showing how yours are done (ie. pictures of someone with a maul and tool working on leather) is a positive way to demonstrate the quality of your cases. The lack of such on other websites will then be apparent.

[MADMAX22]

Ashamedly, I haven't always taken the high road in these matters but I am trying to turn over a new leaf. :-)

There is absolutley nothing wrong with educating your customer. Actually I prefer places that do this. When I look at a website for leatherworking and they go into depth about why there stuff is better becuase its hand tooled or hand sewn or anything else like that and they provide pictures and such I think it is far better then a play on words.

Take Art Vincent's site on his quivers, Not only does he explain why his quivers are better then alot of others and shows how much work he has done researching and experimenting with his work but includes why others that have not done this and just throw some random stuff together arent going to get you your money's worth even if it is cheaper. Art Vincent's site Also when you contact him he is usually very helpful with explaining anything to you.

Esantoro's site walden bags shows why his is better then the competition. There are many others as well, holster web sites, bag sites, all kinds of stuff.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to the customer how yours is made and how theres is made, your not bad mouthing, your educating your customer. Even if they dont buy your bag they will be educated on what to look for and will more then likely remember you for your help.

[scooby]

Would not mentioning the fact that you can tool 'anything!'

and machine embossed work can only produce what the die is cut to!

not simply bring home the difference?

For example 'you would like your initals in the middle of the design? - no problem!'

Then again I've never tooled a thing in my life so what do I know!?

[hidepounder]

John,

This is a battle we have all fought at one time or another. I have stopped trying to justify my prices...if I have to explain the differences, I'm probably going to lose the battle! If the customer can't SEE the difference between my work and the less expensive work, how am I going to convince him? I simply smile and state: "Well, now you know what their product is worth!"

Bob

Edited January 29, 2009 by hidepounder

[Windy]

I understand your frustration. After looking at your

web site I would suggest that you heed your own

words. Go and change all those "I made" into the

truth of "my company made". Talk about misleading

as one can get. When I read "I made" I take to mean

you made it personally,when in all reality your team

made it. Of course this is alright since you admit

to not taking the high road all the time.

WINDY

[JohnBarton]

John,

This is a battle we have all fought at one time or another. I have stopped trying to justify my prices...if I have to explain the differences, I'm probably going to lose the battle! If the customer can't SEE the difference between my work and the less expensive work, how am I going to convince him? I simply smile and state: "Well, now you know what their product is worth!"

Bob

I know. I have been down this road many times as well. It's just that I think a lot of the time the dealer and the customers are ignorant of what it is they are selling and what it is they are looking to buy.

When I had my production case business I had to contend with people selling copies of my best designs made in vinyl instead of leather and advertising it as "real leather" at half of my prices.

It wasn't until almost two years later when I threatened to burn one of their cases at my booth at the annual industry show that the offending factory and distributor/importer finally backed down and stopped advertising their knockoffs as leather.

But the damage was done.

In this situation I don't really think that the seller was trying to be deceptive about it inasmuch as I don't think he really understands or appreciates the difference. Now that I have had a discussion with him about it however I think that he intends to keep the description and remains adamant that using the words "heavily tooled" is a proper description of the case.

Doing a quick google search on "tooled leather" images brings up 95% images of hand tooled leather goods and the other 5% are machine stamped/embossed. Doing another google search on "embossed leather" brings up nearly 100% images of machine stamped leather and vinyl. So I don't think that there is any room for him to say that using "heavily tooled" is proper for die stamped embossing.

Anyway, the customer is often in the dark about how things are made or done. This is especially true in pool cue cases and the billiard industry in general.

I have fought this battle many times at shows and I usually take the path of explaining why I build cases the way I do and invite the prospective customers to make their own comparisons. That has worked quite well.

Now, with my rebirth, so to speak, as a custom case maker, I find that I am talking about the decoration aspect of the case far more than the structural and protective aspects. And this then is where this topic comes from because I have been asked flat out why this case costs so much less with more "tooling" than mine. It's clear that the customer can't tell the difference simply by looking at the pictures, and even at that it's hard because the competitor's case is done in a completely different style that obfuscates the detail and craftsmanship in hand tooling vs. die stamping.

So I don't really like to say that the competitor's case (at least in this instance) is not as well done or is worth less. Mainly because I have never had one to inspect so I really can't make that statement. But I can take issue with statements that are misleading, whether intentional or not and that is what I am going to do with an educational page on the web site that details what each type of decorating is and what type of work goes into it. Then I can just point to that page and be done with it. I think that treating my customer as a student is probably the best way to go. With my old company I found that this accomplished two things, 1. it made them more knoweldgeable about cue cases in general and 2. it made them evangelists for my products if they chose to buy them because they had to justify their choice to their friends.

Thanks for the encouragement and for the advice,

John

[jbird]

windy

Your post seems a bit unfair to me he clearly sights his teams invovlment in his products and once he has gone in to that fully you understand what he means when he says I made, it's like walt Disney saying I made these moveis, and further more he is not saying I and only me it isn't at all the same thing.

Josh

[JohnBarton]

I understand your frustration. After looking at your

web site I would suggest that you heed your own

words. Go and change all those "I made" into the

truth of "my company made". Talk about misleading

as one can get. When I read "I made" I take to mean

you made it personally,when in all reality your team

made it. Of course this is alright since you admit

to not taking the high road all the time.

WINDY

I will definitely go back and look at it. I do need to review what I write on the website from time to time as things change. Sometimes I deliberately write "I made" instead of "we made" because the thing I am talking about is in fact something that I made, be it the design from concept through to actual piece, or even something that I did all by myself. Generally when I say "I made" then I am speaking of something that came to fruition through my direction that is unique and fresh.

I just went back to see if I could find any thing that was misleading and I have to say that from the front page on I have been real clear abotu the fact that I do not work alone. However I do take 100% credit for the existence of JB Cases and how they are built. I don't find it to be misleading in the least if once in a while on the site I say something like "cases I build" because these are cases that "I" build in the sense that they would not exist but for me creating them in my mind first and bringing together the talent and tools to get them done. It really depends on context and in the context of the site I really don't think anyone who reads through it could come to the impression that I am working alone building cases.

However, if you would point out whatever really jumps out at you as coming across as misleading then I will be happy to look at it and rewrite it so that it is clear. Your point is well noted and I will certainly be reviewing the site in depth to insure that I am not leading anyone into thinking that I am doing all this work by myself. That is the last thing I would want.

Thank you for bringing this up.

John

[JohnBarton]

P.S. Windy,

When I said I haven't always taken the high road in situations like these it wasn't meant to say that I have been deliberately misleading but instead to mean that I have often been confrontational and frank about the quality differences between my products and the competition's. This is something that I could have handled with much more class and grace and diplomacy and tact.

Pool cues generally run from the hundreds of dollars to the hundreds of thousands. I approach cue case making from the standpoint that it should protect the cue as much as possible for the type of case it is. My colleagues don't always see it that way or they have a different idea of what amount of protection is needed.

Most of them focus more on the look of the product rather than the function. I have been the opposite and have fought many battles in the "form follows function" war as pertains to cue cases.

I'd like to think that those battles have resulted in generally better cue cases from all case makers as well as more informed consumers. But I know that my reach is only so much and my style surely turned a lot of people off with the delivery. That's what I meant by taking the low road.

Five years ago I wouldn't have asked you all for advice. I'd already be attacking the other guy on the other forum and ripping him and his description to shreds. ;-)

[BillB]

All,

I have found this thread to be very interesting and it raises more questions than I could even begin to answer. The problem for me begins with the basic definition of a "tool". The knife I use and the carving tools I use are tools and I use my hands. There are several ways to do embossing starting with a Hand embosser, to a mechanical embosser powered by hand to a mechanical embosser powered by an electric motor, but it is still just a tool. If I tool belt blank (probably punched out by a machine) with Hand Tools and then use the motorized edger to finish it, is it Hand Made, Machine Made, Hand Tooled ????? With the introduction of the Laser into the mix, what additional confusion will be created?

I like the idea of fully explaining how one makes the article under consideration since I can then stay true to my heart and spirit. It is then up to the buyer to decide if they want to buy or not, and that has always been up to the buyer.

BillB.

[JohnBarton]

All,

I have found this thread to be very interesting and it raises more questions than I could even begin to answer. The problem for me begins with the basic definition of a "tool". The knife I use and the carving tools I use are tools and I use my hands. There are several ways to do embossing starting with a Hand embosser, to a mechanical embosser powered by hand to a mechanical embosser powered by an electric motor, but it is still just a tool. If I tool belt blank (probably punched out by a machine) with Hand Tools and then use the motorized edger to finish it, is it Hand Made, Machine Made, Hand Tooled ????? With the introduction of the Laser into the mix, what additional confusion will be created?

I like the idea of fully explaining how one makes the article under consideration since I can then stay true to my heart and spirit. It is then up to the buyer to decide if they want to buy or not, and that has always been up to the buyer.

BillB.

I agree. However I do think that the accepted implication of "tooled" by itself is "hand tooled". I think you find that most people use them interchangeably.

I have nothing against the use of embossers, lasers, etc.... I just think that if one is going to highlight certain aspects to enhance the description then one should be truthful about the method and not use a term that may be technically correct but is not commonly used in that manner and is intended to be taken in the more advantageous way.

For example, some of my competitors to this day will sell their vinyl cases with a little die cut leather symbol on it that says "real leather" or just "leather". And that and the handles will be the only pieces of real leather on the case. That infuriates me to no end.

Obviously most people fudge a little bit. When you say something is hand made you don't really count the power tools that you might have used to make it, be they a drill press, a dremel, a burnishing wheel and so on....

A famous cue maker once said in a debate over the use of CNC for doing inlays that when someone says that their cues are hand made then he expects them to use nothing but a knife to make it. Thus guy designed cues that were mind and wallet blowing. Thomas Wayne.

This is however why I asked what the accepted vernacular is. If everyone said tooling is tooling no matter how it's done then my objection to my competitor's description would have evaporated.

And honestly I still would love to get your combined thoughts on how these things should be described for my educational page. I'd love to cite LeatherWorker.net as the souce of the information. I don't mind sending prospective customers here to learn about leather working and what it entails. A better educated consumer is one that knows what quality is and expects to pay for it.

[Hennessy]

Don't ya just hate it when a competitor (or not) makes a play on words in order to justify their existence? My experience has often been that the cheaply made product is priced higher than my prices for a matching or similar product.

Here's what I would do. I'd set up a spot on my website for educating the general public. Show samples of hand-tooled and embossed patterns on leather, include some close up shots of each. Explain briefly, yet succinctly, the differences between the two. Explain how the process is achieved in both instances. If possible, show pics of what embossed leather looks like new, and what it looks like after a couple of years. Huge difference with respect to the durability/maintaining pattern clarity between embossed and expertly hand-tooled leather. Keep your responses on an informational/educational level. That way you're not taking "digs" at the competition. It's likely that you'll aggravate the heck of the competition because you've exposed their scam, but you've done nothing more than educate the customer with information that they could ultimately find out through their own research. Integrity is the name of the game here. There's a ton of businesses/competitors out there who choose not to follow that line - don't be one of them.

In this instant case, I'd show the potential customer detailed pics of what your tooled cases exhibit. Tell the customer what type of leather/materials you use, who the artisan is that does the tooling, and encourage them to do some research on those materials and bios. If they've got a lick of sense (and most do), they'll be back to you with the results of their search and ordering one of your cases.

Good luck to you.

welcome to the world of volume,someones always gonna pop up n kick you in the market place.here's what i'd do, carefully look over his product and make exactly the same product cheaper by a little and add them into your line,a pro line and an amateur line guess wot would be th amateur line? adios pete

[TroyWest]

I think your line of reasoning in this matter is positive. I appreciate your wanting to take the higher road. It is the right thing to do regardless of what the competition does.

I would agree with your interpretation of the terminology. It is the same as my own, although the terms tooling and embossing are sometimes used interchangedly.

I think educating your customers is the best route to take. In the photograph his case actually looks pretty good, but it also looks embossed.

Embossing, in my mind, is making a plate, of metal, fiberglass, or plastics, with the design. Moisten the leather, put the plate on top, and press the design into the leather.This process takes seconds to put into the leather. The plate can be used hundreds of times to put the same design in leather, rapidly and inexpensively.

Tooling, as we commonly refer to it, is drawing, or transferring the design to the leather, cutting each line idividually, beveling each line with a beveler. Using a number of tools each one individually tapped with a mallet taking hours to produce a hand carved piece that would take seconds to emboss. Hence, the tremendous difference in price. It takes no skill to emboss, but a lot of time goes in to developing good carving skills.

I know that you are aware of all these things, but you asked for opinions of others on these matters, and these are a few of my thoughts. I hope they will be helpful.

Troy West

[JohnBarton]

welcome to the world of volume,someones always gonna pop up n kick you in the market place.here's what i'd do, carefully look over his product and make exactly the same product cheaper by a little and add them into your line,a pro line and an amateur line guess wot would be th amateur line? adios pete

Don't think that this has not crossed my mind more than once. The problem with this approach is that it's a race to the bottom as the competition can always take more shortcuts and still achieve the "look" that's good enough to fool people in the short term.I will tell you a quick story.Once upon a time back before we did mass production in the early 90's I was visited in my German office by a Taiwanese importer whom I had met at a trade show. She came to visit me while in town visiting her large customers. She came fishing for information and one of the questions she asked was what our best seller was.

At the time I was into all kinds of pastels and was making cases using a brilliant blue vinyl and hot pink among other colors. So I picked out a blue and pink one and showed it to her and said this is our best seller bar none.Three months later I was at the annual industry trade show in Las Vegas and as I walked up to her booth there was a line of blue and pink cases proudly on display. She was obviously embarrassed but I played it off as if it meant nothing and asked her how they were selling. She said that no one was taking an interest in them and I said, "oh, I thought you were asking what the best selling colors were for Germany, the Americans hate this color combination." :-) Sometimes you win one.

What I have learned in business these past 20 years is that relationships sell products. Honestly it's not about who has the cheapest price in most transactions. If it were then there wouldn't be any brand names. It's the relationship you form with your customer that ultimately wins the day. Obviously you aren't going to have a license to steal just because you have a good relationship though, you aren't going to be selling a million widgets at $3 while all of your competition is at $1.50. But I will bet that you can sell them at $1.75 if your customers have faith in you and your quality and service.Once you establish a good trusting rapport and back it up with quality items then you are well on the way to outdistancing the competition.

At shows I used to educate my consumers about my quality with demos. I would actually take their $5000 cue and put it in my case and turn the case upside down with the lid open and shake it vigorously. Among other things. Then I would point out the other vendors who were selling copies of my cases and invite the customer to study them on their own. And the last thing I would say to the customer is that if they ended up choosing one of the copies over mine because of the attractive price then I wasn't worried about it because sooner or later, probably sooner, they would be back for the real thing. I went to shows for 10 years and many of you can surely attest that you end up seeing the same people over and over again year after year. Time and again I was proven right when a customer came back the following year reporting problems with the copy case they bought and stated that they were dead set on buying on of mine that year.

I wish it were as easy as just sitting your goods out and watching them sell like hot buttered corn. I had that feeling one time and one time only. The first year I brought out what has become the most copied design in cases we sold out several hundred cases in a matter of days. I sold all my cases, bought cues to take back to Germany and had to buy other people's cases to hold the cues. :-) That was a sweet show. Ever since then I have looked across the aisle and wince every time I see a row of cases with my design that I have received no compensation for.Thus I am not a big fan of copying other people's designs. In some situations though I will do that which you suggested but I strive to make my version better than it's predecessors or I don't want to touch the project. If I can't do something to improve it then I leave it alone.

I think your line of reasoning in this matter is positive. I appreciate your wanting to take the higher road. It is the right thing to do regardless of what the competition does.I would agree with your interpretation of the terminology. It is the same as my own, although the terms tooling and embossing are sometimes used interchangedly.I think educating your customers is the best route to take. In the photograph his case actually looks pretty good, but it also looks embossed.Embossing, in my mind, is making a plate, of metal, fiberglass, or plastics, with the design. Moisten the leather, put the plate on top, and press the design into the leather.This process takes seconds to put into the leather. The plate can be used hundreds of times to put the same design in leather, rapidly and inexpensively.Tooling, as we commonly refer to it, is drawing, or transferring the design to the leather, cutting each line idividually, beveling each line with a beveler. Using a number of tools each one individually tapped with a mallet taking hours to produce a hand carved piece that would take seconds to emboss. Hence, the tremendous difference in price. It takes no skill to emboss, but a lot of time goes in to developing good carving skills.I know that you are aware of all these things, but you asked for opinions of others on these matters, and these are a few of my thoughts. I hope they will be helpful.Troy West

Thank you Troy. This is the sort of information I am looking for. I think it carries more weight when it comes from people who do the work rather than someone like myself who designs but does not tool. Edited February 2, 2009 by JohnBarton

[wildrose]

I just have to add a little bit to this conversation: if some idiot wants to buy that first pictured piece over that second lovely piece of leatherwork, it's their loss (though they might keep a little more money in their pocket). Anyone looking seriously can just tell your case is much nicer.

But I agree with what others have said about it being wise for you to take the high road and try reasonably to explain the differences in laymans terms to customers.