Q about a machine

[TwinOaks]

I've decided to invest in a good machine, and have done a little research lately. I think I've settled on a Toro3K, or possibly a Cowboy 441 clone, as either will be more than capable for making holsters and some tack. I spoke to someone at Neels (Ryan?) the other day and discussed the similarities/differences of the two. I'd also recieved a recommendation for a Neels model 5, but I'm pretty sure I want the compound/needle feed to avoid excessive marking on the leather when I have grain out on both sides.

The Artisan website also advertises it's abilitiy to sew lighter leathers with a needle change. Is the Toro3k too much machine, even stepped down to a smaller needle, for sewing bags, purses, and wallets? I know very little about sewing machines and will only be able to afford one (more) at this time. I currently have a Viking 6440 (thanks, Ma) and am having trouble with the bottom of the stitches laying flat instead of being 'locked' in the hole.

I appreciate any input, and add a further question: What thread sizes should I be using with the Viking for wallet construction?

Edited February 22, 2009 by TwinOaks

[rdb]

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

[esantoro]

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

I find that with my 441 a slotted flat needle plate sans feeddog is a necessity. I also think that when going to a 24 needle or smaller it is also very useful to shim the spacing ring.

RDB, the next time you have the spacing ring out on your toro, could you measure the thickness with a caliper?

I think it would be worth paying attention to how close your needle passes the hook. Smaller needles will be farther from the hook. In my experience, slight grazing is ideal and will help ensure loops are properly formed.

I also think that for lighter thread, leather and smaller needles that it is also worth considering the removal of the spring in the bobbin case (not the tension clip but the spring that pushes the bobbin out of the casing). In my experience, that spring alone pushes the bobbin against the steel bar of the bobbin case housing causing too much friction on the bobbin as it rotates. This isn't noticeable on thick leather with thick thread and a large needle, but it is noticeable when you work with the lighter stuff.

But, as always, Art is the master here.

ed

I bought the 3000 knowing that a heavy duty machine would probably not be ideal for lighter leather. I believe the 3000 goes down to 138 thread, which is still heavy for some leatherwork like wallets ( in the style of manufactured ones).

I have used thread lighter than 207, and it worked fine. My problem was the changes necessaary to do this. First, there is a bobbin tension spring adjustment. Then a pressure foot, and walking foot adjustment. Then a tension spring. And finally a needle. None of these are too difficult, but if you are looking for perfection, several adjustments, and tests are necessary. THEN, you have to readjust back to your regular work. All, of which, are time consuming.

I get by on anything from 207 and heavier with little or no adjustments. Lighter leathers and threads definitely need the changes. There is no magic solution to various leather stitching,

It's one thing as a hobbyist to be willing to do all the changes for a few projects. It's another to have to get work done for a business. If you make a variety of product, using the right tool for job (as my motto says) requires you to be able to switch between product assembly without fuss. In other words two or more machines, set up for specific purposes is the solution. I am very happy with my 3000, and am seriously considering breaking down for a second machine to do the lighter work.

I too, am interested in other's opinions to this. I have a Singer 30-15 that I intend to put a servo on, but even then, I don't believe it would give me the universallity of a good compound feed, just another option. I believe Jordan has a Neels, and of course, Art will have the most definitive response.

I find that with my 441 a slotted flat needle plate sans feeddog is a necessity. I also think that when going to a 24 needle or smaller it is also very useful to shim the spacing ring.

RDB, the next time you have the spacing ring out on your toro, could you measure the thickness with a caliper?

I think it would be worth paying attention to how close your needle passes the hook. Smaller needles will be farther from the hook. In my experience, slight grazing is ideal and will help ensure loops are properly formed.

I also think that for lighter thread, leather and smaller needles that it is also worth considering the removal of the spring in the bobbin case (not the tension clip but the spring that pushes the bobbin out of the casing). In my experience, that spring alone pushes the bobbin against the steel bar of the bobbin case housing causing too much friction on the bobbin as it rotates. This isn't noticeable on thick leather with thick thread and a large needle, but it is noticeable when you work with the lighter stuff.

But, as always, Art is the master here.

ed

[2MadJacks]

I too have the toro 3k and I just wanted to let you know that it will sew with threads as light as 69 and as heavy as 415 with just a swap of the needle and a minor adjustment in tesion. this machine sews very well. James

You can download the manual at the artisansew.com

[esantoro]

I too have the toro 3k and I just wanted to let you know that it will sew with threads as light as 69 and as heavy as 415 with just a swap of the needle and a minor adjustment in tesion. this machine sews very well. James

You can download the manual at the artisansew.com

MadJacks,

What size needle are you using with the 69 thread?

ed

[rdb]

I read the manual 2Mad, but I have not had the simple success you have. For the record, I have never tried #69 thread, but with lighter than 207, I have not been able to use it on the leathers I have, without adjustments beyond the simple tension change you suggest. Too much pressure foot, too little. Too much bobbin tension, etc. I'm not saying it can't be done in a pinch, but for me it's too much rigermarole in my day. Maybe Artisan Dave can suggest a course of action. They haven't been wrong yet when asked.

[Art]

Hi Mike,

The Viking (Husqvarna) is a good machine, just don't try and make it do too much, it isn't built to be doing anything but light leathers. I've seen big 441s that will sew anything from a 3/4" stack to a dollar bill, and with a little adjustment they really can, wait a minute, that's impossible, so here's the catch. It can sew all those different thicknesses WITH THE SAME NEEDLE AND THREAD. I've seen it at shows, they sew a piece or three or four of heavy skirting, then pull out a piece of 4oz and run that around, then go back to the stack, neat trick. Now look at the the sew-offs, on the thin piece, the bobbin thread is laying on the top, but it impresses folks buying their first machine who don't notice this; they don't realize they won't be using 346 thread and a 230/26 needle to sew wallets. So when they switch to 69 thread and a 100/16 needle, they are more than a little surprised that they are skipping a bunch of stitches and even worse things start happening.

The above being said, a good mechanic who is remotely familiar with a 441, can set the machine up to sew with 46 thread and a 80/12 or 90/14 needle (if indeed the needle bar will hold it) in a half hour or so, but a smaller machine might do a better job overall. The shuttle and hook is really too large for that kind of thing, and 10 or 12 spi might actually be out of the 441 range a little bit.

So, this is why folks end up with 2 or 3, or 4, or more machines. Most folks don't need a post machine or a patcher, but try to run a repair business without one and you end up doing a lot of hand stitching. Your first machine needs to be sized for the majority of your work, the next machine has to be matched to your next largest quantity of work, and so on. The 441 machines can be setup to sew about a three needle size range reliably, they are always setup to sew the largest needle in the range where the hook just barely touches the needle, and I mean barely. So, set it up to sew a 230/26 and it will sew a 180/24 ok. YMMV. The thread has to match the needle, so you can't get away with running 69 thread and a 180 needle, the stitching won't be tight.

I hope I am answering the questions here, sometimes I digress.

On your Viking, when the bobbin thread "lays flat" on the bottom, you need more top tension to pull up the bobbin thread a little. I don't think I would want to use over a 46 thread in the Viking, maybe smaller. With thread sizes 46 and down, the color selection available goes up dramatically. You see these color charts from the thread manufacturers, but try and find anything more than white, brown, and black in the bigger sizes.

Yes, you do want compound feed or at the very least a walking foot on a leather machine. Compound feeds like needle feed/walking foot or needle feed/jump foot are optimal. Drop feed (feed dogs) can be a little problem sometimes when combined with the needle feed/walking foot and edge sewing.

Art

I've decided to invest in a good machine, and have done a little research lately. I think I've settled on a Toro3K, or possibly a Cowboy 441 clone, as either will be more than capable for making holsters and some tack. I spoke to someone at Neels (Ryan?) the other day and discussed the similarities/differences of the two. I'd also recieved a recommendation for a Neels model 5, but I'm pretty sure I want the compound/needle feed to avoid excessive marking on the leather when I have grain out on both sides.

The Artisan website also advertises it's abilitiy to sew lighter leathers with a needle change. Is the Toro3k too much machine, even stepped down to a smaller needle, for sewing bags, purses, and wallets? I know very little about sewing machines and will only be able to afford one (more) at this time. I currently have a Viking 6440 (thanks, Ma) and am having trouble with the bottom of the stitches laying flat instead of being 'locked' in the hole.

I appreciate any input, and add a further question: What thread sizes should I be using with the Viking for wallet construction?

[2MadJacks]

I use a #18 neddle with #69 thread and when I start sewing whithout and other adjustments. My bobbin thread is being pulled up to the to the top so.. the main tension (on the side of the machine) is to tight. After backing it off some and once I get pretty close to where I need to be I then adjust the top rear (minor) tension. I don't adjust the bobbin tension at all. To me this is minor, believe me, I'm not wanting to make you think I enjoy doing this. but it is cheaper than buying a new machine. also if you still feel like you have to adjust you bobbin and thats whats bothering you the most, have you maybe thought of just buying an extra shuttle hook and bobbin just for lighter work? Don't know just a thought. James

[esantoro]

I use a #18 neddle with #69 thread and when I start sewing whithout and other adjustments. My bobbin thread is being pulled up to the to the top so.. the main tension (on the side of the machine) is to tight. After backing it off some and once I get pretty close to where I need to be I then adjust the top rear (minor) tension. I don't adjust the bobbin tension at all. To me this is minor, believe me, I'm not wanting to make you think I enjoy doing this. but it is cheaper than buying a new machine. also if you still feel like you have to adjust you bobbin and thats whats bothering you the most, have you maybe thought of just buying an extra shuttle hook and bobbin just for lighter work? Don't know just a thought. James

Hi James,

Where are you getting #18 needles for the toro? I thought the smallest available was #23. Since your setup for 69 thread is working for you, nothing needs to be changed,but I'm curious to know if the top tension on 69 thread will be better if you don't wrap the top thread twice around the upper tension pigtail, as is done in the Artisan video. I, too, would like to make my 441 as versatile as possible.

Thanks,

Ed

[2MadJacks]

I ordered my needles from artisan at the same time I bought the machine. And I too have thought about using only one wrap on the top or maybe even the side but I have not tried this yet. should make things much quicker. before I bought this machine I dealt with an older gentleman on an old Mercury simalar to the toro 3k. with the mercury he said he only used one wrap on the side tension unless he was sewing thicker material, then he used two wraps. James

[2MadJacks]

Hi Ed, Rdb

Just wanted to let you know I just got a chance to play with my toro and rethreaded it with #69 and only wrapped the tension one time instead of twice as the video suggested. It definetly made the adjustment for the lightweight material much quicker. I didn't adjust my pressure foot at all. also I called artisan and asked if they suspected if we should have to adjust our bobbin tension and they didn't think we would need to. I spoke with Dave. don't know if they have more than one Dave or not so I don't want to say it was artisandave. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any more help to you. James

Edited February 23, 2009 by 2MadJacks

[esantoro]

Hi Ed, Rdb

Just wanted to let you know I just got a chance to play with my toro and rethreaded it with #69 and only wrapped the tension one time instead of twice as the video suggested. It definitely made the adjustment for the lightweight material much quicker. I didn't adjust my pressure foot at all. also I called artisan and asked if they suspected if we should have to adjust our bobbin tension and they didn't think we would need to. I spoke with Dave. don't know if they have more than one Dave or not so I don't want to say it was artisandave. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any more help to you. James

I've written this before. Though I have not received any corroboration, I do think it's worthwhile, especially if you need your 441 to stitch a variety of thicknesses, tension settings, thread, etc.

Remove that spring inside the bobbin case, as it adds friction to the bobbin when it rotates. That spring should be replaceable (you'll probably need a sturdy tweezers)if you need to replace it. However, this may be only a consideration for my 441 clone , which is a Neel's/Cowboy model 6, but I think it will work across the board. The spring is there to make the bobbin stop spinning when you let up on the motor pedal. However, I don't think superfluous bobbin spin is a problem if you are doing 300 spi or slower. If you're going full bore at 800 spi maybe, but not 300 or even 400.

Of course, if you remove this spring, it will not spring out of the case when you open it, but that is a very minor concern. A middle course if you think this modification has some merit is to cut off a few coils from the spring. What I like most about not having the spring there is that I can be sure that the only adjustment for bobbin tension will be the tension adjust screw, not the fact that some of my bobbins are a smidgen longer than others. Inconsistent stitch results was driving me mad until I figured out this spring was a major player.

James, if you can and you have calipers on hand, would you mind measuring the thickness of the spacing ring in your shuttle/hook setup whenever it is convenient? I'm curious to know if there is variance.

ed

[2MadJacks]

Ed, yes I do have calipers and will definetly check the spacing for you. your spring removal idea definetly makes sence with the bobbins being different lengths. James

Edited February 23, 2009 by 2MadJacks

[Bree]

Hi Mike,

The Viking (Husqvarna) is a good machine, just don't try and make it do too much, it isn't built to be doing anything but light leathers. I've seen big 441s that will sew anything from a 3/4" stack to a dollar bill, and with a little adjustment they really can, wait a minute, that's impossible, so here's the catch. It can sew all those different thicknesses WITH THE SAME NEEDLE AND THREAD. I've seen it at shows, they sew a piece or three or four of heavy skirting, then pull out a piece of 4oz and run that around, then go back to the stack, neat trick. Now look at the the sew-offs, on the thin piece, the bobbin thread is laying on the top, but it impresses folks buying their first machine who don't notice this; they don't realize they won't be using 346 thread and a 230/26 needle to sew wallets. So when they switch to 69 thread and a 100/16 needle, they are more than a little surprised that they are skipping a bunch of stitches and even worse things start happening.

The above being said, a good mechanic who is remotely familiar with a 441, can set the machine up to sew with 46 thread and a 80/12 or 90/14 needle (if indeed the needle bar will hold it) in a half hour or so, but a smaller machine might do a better job overall. The shuttle and hook is really too large for that kind of thing, and 10 or 12 spi might actually be out of the 441 range a little bit.

So, this is why folks end up with 2 or 3, or 4, or more machines. Most folks don't need a post machine or a patcher, but try to run a repair business without one and you end up doing a lot of hand stitching. Your first machine needs to be sized for the majority of your work, the next machine has to be matched to your next largest quantity of work, and so on. The 441 machines can be setup to sew about a three needle size range reliably, they are always setup to sew the largest needle in the range where the hook just barely touches the needle, and I mean barely. So, set it up to sew a 230/26 and it will sew a 180/24 ok. YMMV. The thread has to match the needle, so you can't get away with running 69 thread and a 180 needle, the stitching won't be tight.

I hope I am answering the questions here, sometimes I digress.

On your Viking, when the bobbin thread "lays flat" on the bottom, you need more top tension to pull up the bobbin thread a little. I don't think I would want to use over a 46 thread in the Viking, maybe smaller. With thread sizes 46 and down, the color selection available goes up dramatically. You see these color charts from the thread manufacturers, but try and find anything more than white, brown, and black in the bigger sizes.

Yes, you do want compound feed or at the very least a walking foot on a leather machine. Compound feeds like needle feed/walking foot or needle feed/jump foot are optimal. Drop feed (feed dogs) can be a little problem sometimes when combined with the needle feed/walking foot and edge sewing.

Art

Some great advice Art. Good job!

[2MadJacks]

Hi Ed,

the spacing ring on my toro 3k is .145

James

[esantoro]

Hi Ed,

the spacing ring on my toro 3k is .145

James

Hi James,

So that makes it 3.69mm,which I think will show better results with #24 needles and smaller. Mine is 3.48mm. And another member posted something like 3.52mm. This is leading me to think there are micro variations in the thicknesses of these spacing rings. And I happen to think that even a variation of .2mm will have an identifiable affect with certain needle/thread/leather variations. Now I know that I may be able to call Artisan and have them measure a few replacement rings and send me one that's about 3.69mm, as that is one size I'd like to have for the smaller needles.

Thanks for the measurement. I hope others will also post their measurements of these spacing rings.

Ed

[Art]

Hi All,

Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

Art

Hi James,

So that makes it 3.69mm,which I think will show better results with #24 needles and smaller. Mine is 3.48mm. And another member posted something like 3.52mm. This is leading me to think there are micro variations in the thicknesses of these spacing rings. And I happen to think that even a variation of .2mm will have an identifiable affect with certain needle/thread/leather variations. Now I know that I may be able to call Artisan and have them measure a few replacement rings and send me one that's about 3.69mm, as that is one size I'd like to have for the smaller needles.

Thanks for the measurement. I hope others will also post their measurements of these spacing rings.

Ed

[esantoro]

I know I should never go against anything Art ever says...I know, I know, I know.

.

.

.

.

.

.

However, I think there really is something to these spacing rings. The 441 manuals even have illustrated a selection of spacing rings of varying thicknesses. Physical observation also tells me that at least with my current 441 setup, #23 and #24 needles will not skim the hook, but #25 and #26 needles will (#26 a tad more than the #25), which tells me that the scarf of the smaller needles are actually farther from the hook.

I just can't help myself from experimenting with these things.

I will try to measure the distances between the scarf and the with various setups. If anyone else is interested, please take a look at how much skimming takes place with particular size needles and the hook.

Now I'll duck, but please throw only ripe tomatoes, as I can use them for my pasta dinner tonight.

Ed

Hi All,

Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

Art

[jbird]

So I am wondering what machine is the most verstile or can do the most,

Say 1/8 to 1/2 is there such I machine out there, I mean for me I do belt lots of belts but I can get in to the thick stuff that's more like 3/8 so any way what if any machine is right for that

Josh

[Luke Hatley]

Josh...... Machine or Machines 1/8".... i have a Singer 31-15 workes great...

1/4 to 1/2"... bite the bullit... get an Artisan 3000 or a similar machine.

I have a Sew-Mo 205-370

[Art]

Hi Josh,

Will it be your first machine and do you need a cylinder arm. What's the money situation.

Art

So I am wondering what machine is the most verstile or can do the most,

Say 1/8 to 1/2 is there such I machine out there, I mean for me I do belt lots of belts but I can get in to the thick stuff that's more like 3/8 so any way what if any machine is right for that

Josh

[jbird]

Hi Josh,

Will it be your first machine and do you need a cylinder arm. What's the money situation.

Art

First machine and well would be nice to have a cylinder arm but not a must.

Money Well the lowest cost machine that well do the job.

Thanks a lot

Josh

[Art]

Hi Josh,

Bite the bullet now and get the 9" 441 like the LMC Cobra Class 3, 1/2" is more than I would want to put a 618 through regularly. Visit one of the shows and look them over.

Art

First machine and well would be nice to have a cylinder arm but not a must.

Money Well the lowest cost machine that well do the job.

Thanks a lot

Josh

[rhall]

Luke I am looking as well..This hand sewin gets harder every year,I hope to decide and am learning alot from you folks..thanks for your experience!

[hidepounder]

Josh,

I don't know anything about sewing machines. About half the time Art is talking so far above my head I don't even see a shadow as he passes by. He is definitely the one to recomend a first machine! But these are the machines that I have and there is not much I can't sew with them. That is not to say that I am good with them because I'm not. But I'm learning and I'm happy with them. I have an Adler 205/370 and I can sew thin material (3-4 oz) with 69 or 92 thread or very heavy material (5/8" is no sweat) with 345 or 415 thread. It was my very first machine and I had never sewn a stitch in my life before getting that machine. I just love it! However, every time I want to change from sewing heavy material to lighter material, I have to change out the needle and then make a few practice runs to get my tension and stitch length adjustments made. It's a pain in the rear to make that radical of a thread change, but the machine will definitely handle them. I have since added an Artisan 797AB which I now leave set up to sew the lighter materials (2 oz) and I leave the Adler set up to sew the heavier materials. I sew 10-12 oz belts all the time with the Artisan. I usually use a 138 thread for belts, sometimes a 92...I like a smaller thread with a shorter stitch length. The Artisan 797AB will sew up to a 207 thread but I almost always use the Adler for that thread weight. The Artisan also has about a 1/2" foot lift, but it is not pratical to try to sew that heavy a material in that machine. Just bucause the foot will raise that high, doesn't mean you can sew that thick. If I had to have just one machine it would be the Adler...maybe because I've had it longer and have more confidence with it. I have no idea if this will be helpful or not...I hope so.

Bob