Q about a machine

[2MadJacks]

Hi Ed, Rdb

Just wanted to let you know I just got a chance to play with my toro and rethreaded it with #69 and only wrapped the tension one time instead of twice as the video suggested. It definetly made the adjustment for the lightweight material much quicker. I didn't adjust my pressure foot at all. also I called artisan and asked if they suspected if we should have to adjust our bobbin tension and they didn't think we would need to. I spoke with Dave. don't know if they have more than one Dave or not so I don't want to say it was artisandave. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any more help to you. James

Edited February 23, 2009 by 2MadJacks

[esantoro]

Hi Ed, Rdb

Just wanted to let you know I just got a chance to play with my toro and rethreaded it with #69 and only wrapped the tension one time instead of twice as the video suggested. It definitely made the adjustment for the lightweight material much quicker. I didn't adjust my pressure foot at all. also I called artisan and asked if they suspected if we should have to adjust our bobbin tension and they didn't think we would need to. I spoke with Dave. don't know if they have more than one Dave or not so I don't want to say it was artisandave. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any more help to you. James

I've written this before. Though I have not received any corroboration, I do think it's worthwhile, especially if you need your 441 to stitch a variety of thicknesses, tension settings, thread, etc.

Remove that spring inside the bobbin case, as it adds friction to the bobbin when it rotates. That spring should be replaceable (you'll probably need a sturdy tweezers)if you need to replace it. However, this may be only a consideration for my 441 clone , which is a Neel's/Cowboy model 6, but I think it will work across the board. The spring is there to make the bobbin stop spinning when you let up on the motor pedal. However, I don't think superfluous bobbin spin is a problem if you are doing 300 spi or slower. If you're going full bore at 800 spi maybe, but not 300 or even 400.

Of course, if you remove this spring, it will not spring out of the case when you open it, but that is a very minor concern. A middle course if you think this modification has some merit is to cut off a few coils from the spring. What I like most about not having the spring there is that I can be sure that the only adjustment for bobbin tension will be the tension adjust screw, not the fact that some of my bobbins are a smidgen longer than others. Inconsistent stitch results was driving me mad until I figured out this spring was a major player.

James, if you can and you have calipers on hand, would you mind measuring the thickness of the spacing ring in your shuttle/hook setup whenever it is convenient? I'm curious to know if there is variance.

ed

[2MadJacks]

Ed, yes I do have calipers and will definetly check the spacing for you. your spring removal idea definetly makes sence with the bobbins being different lengths. James

Edited February 23, 2009 by 2MadJacks

[Bree]

Hi Mike,

The Viking (Husqvarna) is a good machine, just don't try and make it do too much, it isn't built to be doing anything but light leathers. I've seen big 441s that will sew anything from a 3/4" stack to a dollar bill, and with a little adjustment they really can, wait a minute, that's impossible, so here's the catch. It can sew all those different thicknesses WITH THE SAME NEEDLE AND THREAD. I've seen it at shows, they sew a piece or three or four of heavy skirting, then pull out a piece of 4oz and run that around, then go back to the stack, neat trick. Now look at the the sew-offs, on the thin piece, the bobbin thread is laying on the top, but it impresses folks buying their first machine who don't notice this; they don't realize they won't be using 346 thread and a 230/26 needle to sew wallets. So when they switch to 69 thread and a 100/16 needle, they are more than a little surprised that they are skipping a bunch of stitches and even worse things start happening.

The above being said, a good mechanic who is remotely familiar with a 441, can set the machine up to sew with 46 thread and a 80/12 or 90/14 needle (if indeed the needle bar will hold it) in a half hour or so, but a smaller machine might do a better job overall. The shuttle and hook is really too large for that kind of thing, and 10 or 12 spi might actually be out of the 441 range a little bit.

So, this is why folks end up with 2 or 3, or 4, or more machines. Most folks don't need a post machine or a patcher, but try to run a repair business without one and you end up doing a lot of hand stitching. Your first machine needs to be sized for the majority of your work, the next machine has to be matched to your next largest quantity of work, and so on. The 441 machines can be setup to sew about a three needle size range reliably, they are always setup to sew the largest needle in the range where the hook just barely touches the needle, and I mean barely. So, set it up to sew a 230/26 and it will sew a 180/24 ok. YMMV. The thread has to match the needle, so you can't get away with running 69 thread and a 180 needle, the stitching won't be tight.

I hope I am answering the questions here, sometimes I digress.

On your Viking, when the bobbin thread "lays flat" on the bottom, you need more top tension to pull up the bobbin thread a little. I don't think I would want to use over a 46 thread in the Viking, maybe smaller. With thread sizes 46 and down, the color selection available goes up dramatically. You see these color charts from the thread manufacturers, but try and find anything more than white, brown, and black in the bigger sizes.

Yes, you do want compound feed or at the very least a walking foot on a leather machine. Compound feeds like needle feed/walking foot or needle feed/jump foot are optimal. Drop feed (feed dogs) can be a little problem sometimes when combined with the needle feed/walking foot and edge sewing.

Art

Some great advice Art. Good job!

[2MadJacks]

Hi Ed,

the spacing ring on my toro 3k is .145

James

[esantoro]

Hi Ed,

the spacing ring on my toro 3k is .145

James

Hi James,

So that makes it 3.69mm,which I think will show better results with #24 needles and smaller. Mine is 3.48mm. And another member posted something like 3.52mm. This is leading me to think there are micro variations in the thicknesses of these spacing rings. And I happen to think that even a variation of .2mm will have an identifiable affect with certain needle/thread/leather variations. Now I know that I may be able to call Artisan and have them measure a few replacement rings and send me one that's about 3.69mm, as that is one size I'd like to have for the smaller needles.

Thanks for the measurement. I hope others will also post their measurements of these spacing rings.

Ed

[Art]

Hi All,

Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

Art

Hi James,

So that makes it 3.69mm,which I think will show better results with #24 needles and smaller. Mine is 3.48mm. And another member posted something like 3.52mm. This is leading me to think there are micro variations in the thicknesses of these spacing rings. And I happen to think that even a variation of .2mm will have an identifiable affect with certain needle/thread/leather variations. Now I know that I may be able to call Artisan and have them measure a few replacement rings and send me one that's about 3.69mm, as that is one size I'd like to have for the smaller needles.

Thanks for the measurement. I hope others will also post their measurements of these spacing rings.

Ed

[esantoro]

I know I should never go against anything Art ever says...I know, I know, I know.

.

.

.

.

.

.

However, I think there really is something to these spacing rings. The 441 manuals even have illustrated a selection of spacing rings of varying thicknesses. Physical observation also tells me that at least with my current 441 setup, #23 and #24 needles will not skim the hook, but #25 and #26 needles will (#26 a tad more than the #25), which tells me that the scarf of the smaller needles are actually farther from the hook.

I just can't help myself from experimenting with these things.

I will try to measure the distances between the scarf and the with various setups. If anyone else is interested, please take a look at how much skimming takes place with particular size needles and the hook.

Now I'll duck, but please throw only ripe tomatoes, as I can use them for my pasta dinner tonight.

Ed

Hi All,

Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

Art

[jbird]

So I am wondering what machine is the most verstile or can do the most,

Say 1/8 to 1/2 is there such I machine out there, I mean for me I do belt lots of belts but I can get in to the thick stuff that's more like 3/8 so any way what if any machine is right for that

Josh

[Luke Hatley]

Josh...... Machine or Machines 1/8".... i have a Singer 31-15 workes great...

1/4 to 1/2"... bite the bullit... get an Artisan 3000 or a similar machine.

I have a Sew-Mo 205-370