Artisan Price Decrease

[neelsaddlery]

All this talk of Chinese machines and comparative quality is enough to make one's head spin. My 2 cents worth is to buy an older second hand Adler 205 somewhere and you will be sewing trouble free for a very long time! And so will your descendants if you take care of it. There were a couple here somewhere on this site for $25-3000.00 recently which is a bargain.

If any of you readers want a truly modern American made machine I still have Tippmann Aerostitch machines for sale. They are supported with the best customer service in the industry and all parts are made in Fort Wayne, Indiana. You can talk to the designer/inventor anytime and you won't have to worry whether the parts are in stock or when they will be coming from China. I've sold about a doxen of these in the US and Canada and never heard a complant from anyone; just praise.

Thanks,

Henry Veenhoven

Toronto, Ontario

416-231-1870

Email me here!

Henry:

This ties into my post earlier about how it is impossible to get away from China when dealing with sewing machines in today's day and age. The Tippmann Boss and Aerostitch are assembled in the USA, you are absolutely correct in this. And, frankly, a lot of the parts that are particular to these machines are made in the USA too. However, there are some common parts such as the shuttle hook, bobbins, some of the tension parts, some of the screws, as well some of the presser feet that they offered, and some other parts that are sourced from China. How do I know this.... I used to import bobbins and shuttle hooks for them some time back when I was a dealer for them!!!! There were several occasions when they ordered about 500 hooks and 5000 bobbins from me, which I imported for them at a better price than what they were buying them from their old importer. That is the God honest truth!!!! Call Jim Miller at Tippmann and ask him. They bought these bobbins and hooks from me on at least two different occasions.

I do not sell to them anymore, as I think they may have found a better deal, found better quality parts, or went direct for these parts themselves.

I contend that it is impossible to buy any new machine (with the exclusion of a Campbell or Randall) that is not tied to China in one way or another. It may be just a few parts, or it may be a lot of parts -- or even an entire machine or casting, but you cannot get away form China in one way or another when it comes to buying a new machine in today's market.

Just my two cents worth.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

Cowboy Sewing Machines

[bruce johnson]

All this talk of Chinese machines and comparative quality is enough to make one's head spin. My 2 cents worth is to buy an older second hand Adler 205 somewhere and you will be sewing trouble free for a very long time! And so will your descendants if you take care of it. There were a couple here somewhere on this site for $25-3000.00 recently which is a bargain.

If any of you readers want a truly modern American made machine I still have Tippmann Aerostitch machines for sale. They are supported with the best customer service in the industry and all parts are made in Fort Wayne, Indiana. You can talk to the designer/inventor anytime and you won't have to worry whether the parts are in stock or when they will be coming from China. I've sold about a doxen of these in the US and Canada and never heard a complant from anyone; just praise.

Thanks,

Henry Veenhoven

Toronto, Ontario

416-231-1870

Email me here!

Henry and Ryan,

Since you are a dealer and Ryan dealt in them and supplied parts, just a curiosity question for anyone who knows. I bought one of the early original cast iron Boss machines. I sure got my money's worth out of it may times over, and customer support was all I could have wanted. The feed system seemed to work well and it would sew whatever I could get under the foot. When it came time to get a powered machine, I was interested in an Aerostitch. The feedback from the guys I talked to with them was pretty positive and the price was within range. The feet and plates I already had would work. When it came time to put the ink on the check, they told me they had to be honest and tell me they were going to discontinue producing them in the near future. No real reason other than a business decision and that they would continue to supply parts for a while but nothing definite. It seemed like a simple setup machine and if it was like the Boss, easy to adjust and troubleshoot. Any idea why it was dropped and parts are still available? My motive for this was that I had one offered to me last fall at a good price, but was hesitant because I wasn't sure what was available and for how long.

[ryano]

Vernon Weaver still states that the Adlers are made in Germany for some reason, when in fact they are not. Weaver's has an advertisement on the back of March's Shop Talk that states in big print "Made in Germany." I still don't understand why we have to be lied to.

[Art]

Hi Ryano,

I don't know that Vern would make that statement if you called him on the phone, and when I visited last fall, they still had a couple of German machines on the floor. But let's face it, we want to be lied to. We desire made in America or some high tech country WE basically destroyed and rebuilt. A lot of folks wouldn't buy Japanese or German cars until they started assembling them over here although the majority of the parts are Japanese/Chinese or German/European. If you want the prices that cheap labor and the global economy can bring, then it isn't going to be made here. Quality and reliability are the hard fight now. I've been importing from the East since '85 and have always had to fight for quality and price, not always the easiest thing to do in a competitive market, but the price thing always makes it, in sum total, an attractive thing to do.

Now, about the lying, it is basically telling you what you want to hear, it makes it easier to pull out your checkbook and write. Do I think it is ok? Hell no, but I have higher standards than some. If you can't get a straight answer from a dealer, pass him up, he shouldn't misrepresent what he is selling. There is not a distributor in the US importing Chinese castings and filling them up with American parts. The only reason that a machine is "specially made for us" is because it has the distributor's name screened or riveted on the casting. There IS no good reason to lie about any of this as the machines being produced today are actually pretty good, any lying is just salesmanship and a lack of ethics and integrity.

Well, there it is, I said it, and I am unanimous in that.

Art

Vernon Weaver still states that the Adlers are made in Germany for some reason, when in fact they are not. Weaver's has an advertisement on the back of March's Shop Talk that states in big print "Made in Germany." I still don't understand why we have to be lied to.

[rhall]

Thanks Art I always look to you as avoice of reason...So I am still looking for that machine! Thanks again!

[skipj]

Art,

What do the distributors get from the manufacturers in China? Is the stand and feet part of the package? How can an importer make improvements on a sewing machine, any more that a auto dealer can make improvements on a car? They can add accessories to it,but don't change the basic car. Just thinking aloud, wondering if I follow you right.

SkipJ

[esantoro]

Art,

What do the distributors get from the manufacturers in China? Is the stand and feet part of the package? How can an importer make improvements on a sewing machine, any more that a auto dealer can make improvements on a car? They can add accessories to it,but don't change the basic car. Just thinking aloud, wondering if I follow you right.

SkipJ

I can see how it would be possible to do a bit of grinding here and there, some replacement of cheap metal parts and screws, and some substitution of other parts.

ed

[Art]

Hi Skip,

In a word, everything. However it comes from different places. Heads come from one manufacturer, stands from another, sometimes table tops from another, motors from another, lights from another, speed reducers from another, parts (feet, dogs, needle plates, and belts etc.) from another. There is some work that has to go on here, changing parts (most of them come setup to sew fabric/webbing) and some grinding, adjusting, and re-timing to set them up to run leather, about three hours work, sometimes more. The stuff is all broken down cube wise for shipping economy. The distributor earns his pay, it is generally technical grunt work, all that stuff is heavy and has to be completely assembled and running before being broken down for shipping. The good distributors run their machines in before letting them go, but occasionally something slips through and the reputable guys go the freight both ways to fix the problem.

Did I answer your question?

Art

Art,

What do the distributors get from the manufacturers in China? Is the stand and feet part of the package? How can an importer make improvements on a sewing machine, any more that a auto dealer can make improvements on a car? They can add accessories to it,but don't change the basic car. Just thinking aloud, wondering if I follow you right.

SkipJ

[Art]

Hi Ed,

Sometimes they have to grind out a slot or make other adjustments for foot lift etc. There are basically no cheap parts to swap out as the top manufacturers like Huigong and New Century (Xinyi) and a few others use the latest Japanese CNC equipment as do the parts and screw manufacturers, a lot of these places are doing their best to go the ISO 9001 Quality Management Standard route to some degree at least. This doesn't mean you don't have to keep an eye on them though, especially electrics, they build good motors old school, new school is always an adventure, this is where your importer and distributor comes in.

Art

I can see how it would be possible to do a bit of grinding here and there, some replacement of cheap metal parts and screws, and some substitution of other parts.

ed

[gnarls]

Has any one called weaver and asked Vernon about the add that says made in Germany? or are we all just guessing and making accusations without the facts?

[Art]

Well, as the facts go, the ad is right there in black and white. I merely said that Vern probably would not say the same thing on the phone. They book those ads a year at a time, they'll catch up with it eventually, asking on the phone is much more current in the time continuum.

Art

Has any one called weaver and asked Vernon about the add that says made in Germany? or are we all just guessing and making accusations without the facts?

[Red744T]

Thanks everyone for the reply. As much as I dislike China, products made in China are a fact of life and at times unfortunately essential. I can still remember basic electronic products like power adapters being made in other part of the world, but now it's all China. They earned it with better quality and prices or just lower price. I'm one of those consumers who like to be lied to, I buy computers assembled in Mexico knowing full well that the components were made China but as long if it's stamped assembled in Mexico I feel a lot better. . . . Somehow I feel that if the machines are assembled in US or other democratic countries, we would at least have some control over the final manufacturing process and keep the possibility of future manufacturing alive. . . . maybe I went through one too may duck and cover drills when younger and I guess I haven't quite adapted to the "service economy" mindset. I look to Japan/Europe and I still see basic everyday items such as cameras, watches, and pens being made and I wonder why can't we do the same here in the US.

Anyway, from reading the the forum I gather that Campbell Bosworth, Union, and Randal are all out of my price range. Tipperman Boss is a manual machine and I don't know how well it can scale up for production. Tippmann Aerostitch seems like a good candidate but I can't find any information on Tipperman website. How do the Aerostich, the Adler 205 currently for sale on a separate thread, and the Toro 3000 compare? I like the feel of heavier leather and heavier threads but my Brother 797 will only reliably sew up to 138 and I'm still having trouble getting enough upper thread tension. I want to start out making simple products such as mousepads, key trays and move onto small leather case products such as knive/pen/cigar/key cases.

Thanks,

John

On a sidenote, I have a CNC milling maching so if anyone is intereted in making some sewing machine parts in the US, please let me know. However, I only know a little more about CNC milling than sewing but I'll do my best to accommodate any requests.

[esantoro]

Thanks everyone for the reply. As much as I dislike China, products made in China are a fact of life and at times unfortunately essential. I can still remember basic electronic products like power adapters being made in other part of the world, but now it's all China. They earned it with better quality and prices or just lower price. I'm one of those consumers who like to be lied to, I buy computers assembled in Mexico knowing full well that the components were made China but as long if it's stamped assembled in Mexico I feel a lot better. . . . Somehow I feel that if the machines are assembled in US or other democratic countries, we would at least have some control over the final manufacturing process and keep the possibility of future manufacturing alive. . . . maybe I went through one too may duck and cover drills when younger and I guess I haven't quite adapted to the "service economy" mindset. I look to Japan/Europe and I still see basic everyday items such as cameras, watches, and pens being made and I wonder why can't we do the same here in the US.

Anyway, from reading the the forum I gather that Campbell Bosworth, Union, and Randal are all out of my price range. Tipperman Boss is a manual machine and I don't know how well it can scale up for production. Tippmann Aerostitch seems like a good candidate but I can't find any information on Tipperman website. How do the Aerostich, the Adler 205 currently for sale on a separate thread, and the Toro 3000 compare? I like the feel of heavier leather and heavier threads but my Brother 797 will only reliably sew up to 138 and I'm still having trouble getting enough upper thread tension. I want to start out making simple products such as mousepads, key trays and move onto small leather case products such as knive/pen/cigar/key cases.

Thanks,

John

On a sidenote, I have a CNC milling maching so if anyone is intereted in making some sewing machine parts in the US, please let me know. However, I only know a little more about CNC milling than sewing but I'll do my best to accommodate any requests.

I'm not sure if this is a matter of milling, but what about making some kind of a steel plate that could accept one to three 36 pt initials in alignment. The plate with the installed initials can then be placed in a two-ton arbor press or the like.

The only thing that has to be made is the plate to hold the initials. I'll buy the set of the initials, if anyone has ideas for how to make the holding plate. Perhaps we can take a look at some of the gilding presses to get an idea for how the letters are held in place.

Ed

[skipj]

Art,

Yes, you've answered my questions. It's interesting that they aren't made as leather machines. I can see where a good distributor can make all the difference even without the support angle. So it seems the importers do put some parts ("changing parts") in.

SkipJ

[Red744T]

I'm not sure if this is a matter of milling, but what about making some kind of a steel plate that could accept one to three 36 pt initials in alignment. The plate with the installed initials can then be placed in a two-ton arbor press or the like.

The only thing that has to be made is the plate to hold the initials. I'll buy the set of the initials, if anyone has ideas for how to make the holding plate. Perhaps we can take a look at some of the gilding presses to get an idea for how the letters are held in place.

Ed,

Does it look something like the following. It's basically a rectangular holder with socket head cap screws on one end to hold the initials in place. I don't know well they work because we usually only use mounted copper dies in place of the initial holder. How tall are your initials and how wide do you need the openings to be? How will you attach the holder to your press? Thermo adhesive film? screws?

Maybe we can start a new thread at a different forum since I've strayed quite a bit from the initial topic.

John

[esantoro]

Ed,

Does it look something like the following. It's basically a rectangular holder with socket head cap screws on one end to hold the initials in place. I don't know well they work because we usually only use mounted copper dies in place of the initial holder. How tall are your initials and how wide do you need the openings to be? How will you attach the holder to your press? Thermo adhesive film? screws?

Maybe we can start a new thread at a different forum since I've strayed quite a bit from the initial topic.

John

Hi John,

I think we should keep this thread here. It's relevant.

I'll have to call around to get the dimensions of the letter blocks. My guess is that they are about 1" by 1". I'll ask the folks who have the Kwikprint and Kingsley presses, as I'd be buying an alphabet set that fits one or both of those presses.

This plate would simply be placed on top of the leather on a 2-ton arbor press. the 1.25 sq. inch ram would press down on it. There is no need for any special fitting for the press. This block just has to hold three initials.

What you have made seems like it would work well. An all steel block would be even better.

Thanks for your reply.

Ed

Ed,

Does it look something like the following. It's basically a rectangular holder with socket head cap screws on one end to hold the initials in place. I don't know well they work because we usually only use mounted copper dies in place of the initial holder. How tall are your initials and how wide do you need the openings to be? How will you attach the holder to your press? Thermo adhesive film? screws?

Maybe we can start a new thread at a different forum since I've strayed quite a bit from the initial topic.

John

After realizing there these posts are in the thread, maybe it's a good idea to start a new thread, or repost this info to the thread I started on the very topic.

How big are the letters in the block you made? Do you know where they can be bought?

Ed