Cementing leather during holster assembly

[Lobo]

Just addressed a post in the "sewing leather" category dealing with cementing leather prior to sewing, and I thought I would pass on another little time-and-money-saving item I discovered.

For years I used Fiebings Tanners Bond cement. Very strong stuff indeed! Well, I ran out of cement one time and rather than hold up production for a week waiting for a shipment from the supplier, I picked up a bottle of Elmer's Glue All (white stuff in the bottle with the applicator spout), tried it on that week's production batch. It worked just great!

I like the pull-top applicator. You can run a tiny little thin bead of cement exactly where you want it to secure edges or set a welt in place, line up all the pieces and clamp them together, let it set for a few minutes and it is ready for sewing.

An example of how well this works: I once made a pancake holster this way, but when sewing I failed to sew one side of the holster. I went on to the forming process and didn't immediately notice that one side hadn't been sewed, so I inserted the forming gun and started the fitting. Even with the stretching caused by wet-forming, the pieces held together perfectly. Of course, I had to set that piece aside and sew it properly, but this illustrates just how well Elmer's works with leather.

Works very well installing lining leathers also, just apply a glob and brush it out, lay in the lining material, set a weight on the piece while it sets up.

Good old Elmer's! Who would've thought it? Excellent results and as cheap as can be.

[BruceGibson]

You're kidding, right?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Lobo, did you keep that holster or sell it? I'm curious whether it squeaks or not by now. I know using normal cement that if you don't bond the leather together wherever it touches, eventually it can allow a holster to develop a squeak that can't be fixed. I think Elmers glue is water soluble, isn't it? I wonder if it will break down later as a result of the wet forming, or over time from sweat. When I tried using Carpenter's white glue and Elmer's glue as a stiffener when I was making a lot of exotic holsters, it never yielded permanent reesults so I scrapped it.

Any thoughts?

[Lobo]

Boomstick: I sell everything I make, so no I don't have it on hand now. Heck, I have a hard time keeping a holster for myself because someone keeps ordering it and paying for it.

Squeaking? Every new leather item will squeak a bit until it breaks in. I finish my items with a moderately heavy application of neatsfoot oil, so flexibility is assured without undue stiffness or tendency to crack, and the squeaking stops when the item has finished adapting to its new home and application in use.

I don't do exotics, and I don't do carving or stamping, as almost all of my production is for concealed carry (not intended as a fashion statement, not even intended to be seen), so I can't comment on such applications. With all due respect to you, your craftsmanship, and your clientele, I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns, so there is probably a good market for fancy holsters out there; my customers want function, comfort, and durability rather than "pretty" or "fashionable".

For securing multiple layers (including linings) during assembly and making sure that everything is where is should be when it is sewn, I will stand by my endorsement of good old Elmer's Glue.

No offense intended, sir. Just tried to offer a suggestion that others might find helpful, useful, economical. Please continue with your artwork, I will continue with my business.

No, Bruce, I'm not kidding. I'm just running a business and trying to share some thoughts on what I have found to work.

If you gentlemen would prefer that I not post in good faith what my 37 years of experience have taught me, please feel free to say so.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Lobo

[ryano]

Tanners bond smells just like Elmers glue.

[Tkleather1]

Now I am not speaking for Bruce in any way shape or form but I dont think that he meant it in that way at all.

I know that I as well find it hard to believe only because, Well Igeuss I just cant believe I have been wasting all my money on all this High dollar leather glue.

[Lobo]

Now I am not speaking for Bruce in any way shape or form but I dont think that he meant it in that way at all.

I know that I as well find it hard to believe only because, Well Igeuss I just cant believe I have been wasting all my money on all this High dollar leather glue.

My point exactly, sir. It doesn't have to cost a fortune to do a good job.

Tanners bond smells just like Elmers glue.

Don't it?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Lobo, I have to admit that I am fairly offended by your response to my inquiry. Attention to detail is why my holsters look the way they do, not for the sake of appearance. While I strive to meet the quality of craftsmanship that is put out by the holster makers that I admire most, function over form is my priority, and will always remain so. In fact, I spend a lot of time and money to prove a holster concept before I make it public. I get opinions and suggestions from multiple volunteers and beta testers with months of real world use of my designs, then take their feedback and revise the design if necessary (which often occurs multiple times before I decide they are ready).

I also carry everyday, and I have even opted to carry larger pistols in new ways for months at a time just to test the viability of my holster designs. I use my holsters to practice retention training drills, make thousands of draws, test their functionality in force on force training and more, just to ensure that I am utilizing the best design I can. I also draw from the opinions and advice of others who have much more experience than me, in regards to both leathercraft and handgunnery. Bottom line: I believe in my products, and I will put my holsters up against anybody's regarding their functionality, comfort, and durability.

According to some experienced holster makers, the squeaking I am refering to can happen when two peices of leather are sewn together without a proper bond. It doesn't show up right away, but it can develope over time and make a holster unusable for concealed carry. I asked you a legitimate question regarding this possibility because I was both concerned about the long term issues that might come up as a result of the glue you are suggesting, and I wanted to hear what your thoughts were on this matter based on your 37 years of experience.

I am not trying to run you off or undermine your suggestions. This is a public forum dedicated to learning a craft and making improvements. I will continue making an effort to improve my work and help others when I can, knowing full well that not everyone will agree with my methodology. I suggest you do the same.

[K-Man]

I've been making holsters for a few years now, and I've learned nearly everything I know from those considered the best in the industry (at least in the custom holster industry). The application you describe here, Lobo, is not a safe and secure means with which to fashion holsters. Jeff/BOOMSTICK Holsters is spot on with his analogy.

People who visit this forum come here to learn techniques and the proper way to produce a product. They most often want to produce the best quality of product they can. They consider a number of things in that process. They look at the responses they receive from any inquiries they make, they look at the experience level of the person making the response, they look at the means used to make the product.

Your discovery of using Elmer's glue is a legitimate thought and wonderment if it would work. The next step in the process should be to test the theory. This testing should entail more than a 15-20 minute process. Any design or application idea I usually come up with entails weeks and, most often, months of testing. Part of that testing is consulting with others in the industry and researching any similar applications that are either currently in use or have been previously tested. After the legitimate testing, and the proven reliability of the product/design, should it be put into production.

The ultimate use of a gun holster is one of the more serious aspects of the leathercraft industry. The liability is significantly greater for someone making a holster than making a portfolio. Therefore, the proper techniques are far more critical for a holster than some other crafted items. If you make it wrong, there's the greater potential that someone can be hurt or killed. I don't say that to squash inspiration. I often encourage people to think outside the box. But the bottom line is the techniques remain the same - how they put the holster together. Elmer's glue is a temporary hold type of glue. It holds the material in place long enough for it to be sewed. It then starts to break down. A holster fashioned with Elmer's glue is going to break down in very short order.

You often speak (every posting you make) of how much experience you have. I have over 30 years of experience in law, law enforcement, and business. I have a degree in criminal justice. I have nearly 20 years experience in the leathercraft industry. I sell well over $100,000 worth of custom-made holsters and related accessories a year. I have a current backlog of ~500 holsters, plus a great number of related accessories. I've provided holsters to folks in every walk of life, to include around the world. I've provided holsters to those who have safeguarded past and current sitting U.S. President's. My point here is I would not be at that level if I was producing a sub-standard product.

I come here to learn, just like the great majority of the membership. At the point you stop wanting to learn is the point you stop becoming a craftsman.

[BruceGibson]

My comment wasn't intended to offend, though in hindsight maybe I should have expanded upon it. The Elmer's Glue deal is just something I've never encountered at the professional level. I wouldn't use it, and wouldn't endorse it.

I don't do exotics, and I don't do carving or stamping, as almost all of my production is for concealed carry (not intended as a fashion statement, not even intended to be seen), so I can't comment on such applications. With all due respect to you, your craftsmanship, and your clientele, I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns, so there is probably a good market for fancy holsters out there; my customers want function, comfort, and durability rather than "pretty" or "fashionable".

I couldn't tell if that paragraph was directed at me, or if you were addressing Jeff. I was particularly intrigued by your statement, "...I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns..."

I'd like to add to your collection of "pimps (and rookie cops)" in reference to fancy, engraved and plated guns, I know a guy that has some thirty years of law enforcement experience that carried a Colt Commander every day--complete with custom engraved silver and gold grips. He carried in a full-floral carved holster on a full-floral carved gun belt. He worked for the Texas Department of Public Safety as a Texas Ranger. I wouldn't call him a pimp, nor would he be considered a rookie.