Cementing leather during holster assembly

[Lobo]

Just addressed a post in the "sewing leather" category dealing with cementing leather prior to sewing, and I thought I would pass on another little time-and-money-saving item I discovered.

For years I used Fiebings Tanners Bond cement. Very strong stuff indeed! Well, I ran out of cement one time and rather than hold up production for a week waiting for a shipment from the supplier, I picked up a bottle of Elmer's Glue All (white stuff in the bottle with the applicator spout), tried it on that week's production batch. It worked just great!

I like the pull-top applicator. You can run a tiny little thin bead of cement exactly where you want it to secure edges or set a welt in place, line up all the pieces and clamp them together, let it set for a few minutes and it is ready for sewing.

An example of how well this works: I once made a pancake holster this way, but when sewing I failed to sew one side of the holster. I went on to the forming process and didn't immediately notice that one side hadn't been sewed, so I inserted the forming gun and started the fitting. Even with the stretching caused by wet-forming, the pieces held together perfectly. Of course, I had to set that piece aside and sew it properly, but this illustrates just how well Elmer's works with leather.

Works very well installing lining leathers also, just apply a glob and brush it out, lay in the lining material, set a weight on the piece while it sets up.

Good old Elmer's! Who would've thought it? Excellent results and as cheap as can be.

[BruceGibson]

You're kidding, right?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Lobo, did you keep that holster or sell it? I'm curious whether it squeaks or not by now. I know using normal cement that if you don't bond the leather together wherever it touches, eventually it can allow a holster to develop a squeak that can't be fixed. I think Elmers glue is water soluble, isn't it? I wonder if it will break down later as a result of the wet forming, or over time from sweat. When I tried using Carpenter's white glue and Elmer's glue as a stiffener when I was making a lot of exotic holsters, it never yielded permanent reesults so I scrapped it.

Any thoughts?

[Lobo]

Boomstick: I sell everything I make, so no I don't have it on hand now. Heck, I have a hard time keeping a holster for myself because someone keeps ordering it and paying for it.

Squeaking? Every new leather item will squeak a bit until it breaks in. I finish my items with a moderately heavy application of neatsfoot oil, so flexibility is assured without undue stiffness or tendency to crack, and the squeaking stops when the item has finished adapting to its new home and application in use.

I don't do exotics, and I don't do carving or stamping, as almost all of my production is for concealed carry (not intended as a fashion statement, not even intended to be seen), so I can't comment on such applications. With all due respect to you, your craftsmanship, and your clientele, I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns, so there is probably a good market for fancy holsters out there; my customers want function, comfort, and durability rather than "pretty" or "fashionable".

For securing multiple layers (including linings) during assembly and making sure that everything is where is should be when it is sewn, I will stand by my endorsement of good old Elmer's Glue.

No offense intended, sir. Just tried to offer a suggestion that others might find helpful, useful, economical. Please continue with your artwork, I will continue with my business.

No, Bruce, I'm not kidding. I'm just running a business and trying to share some thoughts on what I have found to work.

If you gentlemen would prefer that I not post in good faith what my 37 years of experience have taught me, please feel free to say so.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Lobo

[ryano]

Tanners bond smells just like Elmers glue.

[Tkleather1]

Now I am not speaking for Bruce in any way shape or form but I dont think that he meant it in that way at all.

I know that I as well find it hard to believe only because, Well Igeuss I just cant believe I have been wasting all my money on all this High dollar leather glue.

[Lobo]

Now I am not speaking for Bruce in any way shape or form but I dont think that he meant it in that way at all.

I know that I as well find it hard to believe only because, Well Igeuss I just cant believe I have been wasting all my money on all this High dollar leather glue.

My point exactly, sir. It doesn't have to cost a fortune to do a good job.

Tanners bond smells just like Elmers glue.

Don't it?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Lobo, I have to admit that I am fairly offended by your response to my inquiry. Attention to detail is why my holsters look the way they do, not for the sake of appearance. While I strive to meet the quality of craftsmanship that is put out by the holster makers that I admire most, function over form is my priority, and will always remain so. In fact, I spend a lot of time and money to prove a holster concept before I make it public. I get opinions and suggestions from multiple volunteers and beta testers with months of real world use of my designs, then take their feedback and revise the design if necessary (which often occurs multiple times before I decide they are ready).

I also carry everyday, and I have even opted to carry larger pistols in new ways for months at a time just to test the viability of my holster designs. I use my holsters to practice retention training drills, make thousands of draws, test their functionality in force on force training and more, just to ensure that I am utilizing the best design I can. I also draw from the opinions and advice of others who have much more experience than me, in regards to both leathercraft and handgunnery. Bottom line: I believe in my products, and I will put my holsters up against anybody's regarding their functionality, comfort, and durability.

According to some experienced holster makers, the squeaking I am refering to can happen when two peices of leather are sewn together without a proper bond. It doesn't show up right away, but it can develope over time and make a holster unusable for concealed carry. I asked you a legitimate question regarding this possibility because I was both concerned about the long term issues that might come up as a result of the glue you are suggesting, and I wanted to hear what your thoughts were on this matter based on your 37 years of experience.

I am not trying to run you off or undermine your suggestions. This is a public forum dedicated to learning a craft and making improvements. I will continue making an effort to improve my work and help others when I can, knowing full well that not everyone will agree with my methodology. I suggest you do the same.

[K-Man]

I've been making holsters for a few years now, and I've learned nearly everything I know from those considered the best in the industry (at least in the custom holster industry). The application you describe here, Lobo, is not a safe and secure means with which to fashion holsters. Jeff/BOOMSTICK Holsters is spot on with his analogy.

People who visit this forum come here to learn techniques and the proper way to produce a product. They most often want to produce the best quality of product they can. They consider a number of things in that process. They look at the responses they receive from any inquiries they make, they look at the experience level of the person making the response, they look at the means used to make the product.

Your discovery of using Elmer's glue is a legitimate thought and wonderment if it would work. The next step in the process should be to test the theory. This testing should entail more than a 15-20 minute process. Any design or application idea I usually come up with entails weeks and, most often, months of testing. Part of that testing is consulting with others in the industry and researching any similar applications that are either currently in use or have been previously tested. After the legitimate testing, and the proven reliability of the product/design, should it be put into production.

The ultimate use of a gun holster is one of the more serious aspects of the leathercraft industry. The liability is significantly greater for someone making a holster than making a portfolio. Therefore, the proper techniques are far more critical for a holster than some other crafted items. If you make it wrong, there's the greater potential that someone can be hurt or killed. I don't say that to squash inspiration. I often encourage people to think outside the box. But the bottom line is the techniques remain the same - how they put the holster together. Elmer's glue is a temporary hold type of glue. It holds the material in place long enough for it to be sewed. It then starts to break down. A holster fashioned with Elmer's glue is going to break down in very short order.

You often speak (every posting you make) of how much experience you have. I have over 30 years of experience in law, law enforcement, and business. I have a degree in criminal justice. I have nearly 20 years experience in the leathercraft industry. I sell well over $100,000 worth of custom-made holsters and related accessories a year. I have a current backlog of ~500 holsters, plus a great number of related accessories. I've provided holsters to folks in every walk of life, to include around the world. I've provided holsters to those who have safeguarded past and current sitting U.S. President's. My point here is I would not be at that level if I was producing a sub-standard product.

I come here to learn, just like the great majority of the membership. At the point you stop wanting to learn is the point you stop becoming a craftsman.

[BruceGibson]

My comment wasn't intended to offend, though in hindsight maybe I should have expanded upon it. The Elmer's Glue deal is just something I've never encountered at the professional level. I wouldn't use it, and wouldn't endorse it.

I don't do exotics, and I don't do carving or stamping, as almost all of my production is for concealed carry (not intended as a fashion statement, not even intended to be seen), so I can't comment on such applications. With all due respect to you, your craftsmanship, and your clientele, I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns, so there is probably a good market for fancy holsters out there; my customers want function, comfort, and durability rather than "pretty" or "fashionable".

I couldn't tell if that paragraph was directed at me, or if you were addressing Jeff. I was particularly intrigued by your statement, "...I recall very clearly from 24 years in law enforcement that pimps (and rookie cops) carried fancy, engraved, and plated guns..."

I'd like to add to your collection of "pimps (and rookie cops)" in reference to fancy, engraved and plated guns, I know a guy that has some thirty years of law enforcement experience that carried a Colt Commander every day--complete with custom engraved silver and gold grips. He carried in a full-floral carved holster on a full-floral carved gun belt. He worked for the Texas Department of Public Safety as a Texas Ranger. I wouldn't call him a pimp, nor would he be considered a rookie.

[Bree]

General George Patton's Colt 45 Peacemaker.

Patton's .357 Magnum

Both of his sidearms have ivory grips. Now I wouldn't want to insinuate that the General was a "pimp". At least not to his face!!!

[Rayban]

I've considered being a pimp before....but not if I have to carry a fancy piece like that.....nahhhhh....forget it....

[Jordan]

Correct me if I am misinformed but isn't Elmers Glue All a different formulation than Elmers White Glue. I have always wondered if Tandy Leather Weld wasn't just repackaged Elmers. My...my I do enjoy a fine barnyard strut so early in the mornin. Fancy smancy don't really matter if you can't put the rounds where they need to be faster than the other guy.

[Lobo]

Interesting. I write a post, sharing an experience that others might find useful. Then I get "in your face" responses, to which I reply (admittedly, a little off the cuff).

Notwithstanding Texas Rangers (well known for fancy gear, part of the tradition and image) and General George S. Patton (a brilliant mind coupled with an ego out of proportion to the world he was born in, either in the Patton incarnation or the previous warrior-kings he believed himself to have been in prior lives), there a few practical realities to the discussion.

1. The primary purpose of cementing holsters during assembly is simply to hold everything in place until it has been sewn. The stitching is what holds everything together over the life of the piece. While there may be certain applications in which the cement serves a more long-term purpose, those are very limited and of no consequence in most applications. In fact, in my original post I pointed out that the glued piece survived saturation with water and the wet-forming process with no problems, so the following responses to the contrary were obviously opinion rather than experience talking.

2. Squeaking leather results from either (a) a piece that has not been broken in as yet, or ( a piece that was never properly finished. All holsters go through a break-in period (some designs more than others) during which the holster adjusts to the belt, to the contours of the user's body, to the weapon, etc., and during that break-in period there will be some minor movement that can involve stressing at seams and friction between leather panels; this is normal and must be expected. In the other vein (, quite a few holsters (including several well-known makers) are formed and surface-treated "for pretty", with little or no attempt to provide for long-term protection of the leather. Leather consists of fibrous material throughout its structure that can readily absorb moisture from the atmosphere, from the user's body, etc., and the fibers will swell and contract repeatedly during moisture absorption and drying. Treating the leather with a product that will prevent, or minimize, these tendencies is essential to the long-term usefulness of the piece (the most commonly used product is neatsfoot oil, which infuses the fibers and voids, remaining there for the life of the piece, protecting against moisture absorption while also providing a degree of flexibility and in most applications minimizing friction that results in squeaking).

There are members of this forum ranging from new hobbyists, to full-time leather craftsmen, to serious artists. There are degrees of expertise in every aspect of the craft, and we can all learn something from each other.

For anyone to say that a particular method or technique is the "only" way to accomplish the task might be absolutely right, it might be ignorance of other methods or techniques, or it might be simple arrogance.

There are many fine products available from the supply houses, and most will do a very good job when used as intended. However, many of those products are (as most specialty items are) overpriced for the purpose, and some are undoubtedly nothing more than re-labeled products presented as leather-crafting specialties when they are in use under other trade names in other industries.

When I started my little hobby/business there was no internet, there was no Leatherworker.net forum, and there was very little available to guide the beginner. Most of us learned by trial and error, working through each aspect of every project again and again until we learned what worked and what didn't work. I am still learning, especially as I receive orders for products and designs that I have never dealt with before. Frequently, right in the middle of a project I will have a thought on design or on methods, and I keep a notepad handy (if I don't write things down my old grampa brain doesn't always retain the thought for long).

If I had had the opportunity to apprentice myself to a master craftsman, or even hang around his shop and help, I might have jumped at it. Such opportunities never arose in my life. So, here I am, semi-retired with a little hobby/business that has grown to a point at which it is now strictly a business. I have leased a shop in which to work, I am shipping about a hundred units per month (not on the scale of some makers, but nothing to sneeze at), and my products are featured in a few stores.

I am not an artist; I cannot compete with the producers of some of the beautiful work we see on this forum. I do not delude myself into thinking that I am a master of this craft. I am nothing more than a reasonably well-experienced practicioner of the craft with modestly well-developed skills and a reasonably good understanding of what works in certain applications and what doesn't. I produce several standard designs and I produce to customer designs when requested. I produce a good quality product at a reasonable price and deliver it to the customer in a matter of a few weeks, rather than months, which has resulted in a following of customers that order again and again and refer others to me.

Occasionally I find an opportunity to share a thought or two with others, which they may accept or reject. They may even question my thoughts legitimately, but when it becomes "in your face" I have been known to respond in kind.

Enough said.

[K-Man]

I didn't see any of the responses here given as "in your face." I believe there would be no doubt in your mind if that was the case. You were questioned legitimately as to the validity of your claim with respect to the Elmer's glue. And in short order, it was shown to be an unsafe way to manufacture an item such as a holster. The responses by myself and Jeff were not opinions, but rather experience talking. It was suggested that when you have a thought on designs or methods to do some research. You might be surprised at the knowledge base here on LW, even from those with less than 37 years of experience. (There are some here with more than 37 years of experience also.) In this industry, in particular the fashioning of holsters, there are a variety of ways to make that holster. In some aspects though, it's done the same across the board.

If you want to continue to manufacture holsters in the way you do, that's your perogative. If you wish to extoll your knowledge here on LW, just be aware there may be folks here who know better than you.

Let me give you an example. I want to make some horse tack, in particular, breast collars. So I read, looked at pics, and ordered/purchased a couple as samples. I came up with what I thought was the right design, etc. I was pretty proud of what I had made. I mean, it looked good (somewhat fanciful) and everything. I sent pics to one of the mods here who does a lot of work in horse tack. In short order, he pointed out that there were some flaw/issues with it. After reviewing what he said, I took a closer look at it, and I could see right away where I had screwed up.

The moral of the story is you may think this Elmer glue deal is the right deal, and it looks good, etc. But in reality, it's not the right way to do it. You can either accept that or not - that's your decision.

[JohnnyDingus]

I don't have the experience that all of you do, so I am not comeing from the knowledge of this leather working that you have.

I got started late in life doing leather work and do so want to learn.

So far I am just making leather holsters for my cowboy action shooting, but eventually I would like to get good enough to sell some.

I appreciate the knowledge that all of you have and the experience, but I also would like to know that I don't need a certain expensive glue if some other will work as well.

For those of you that have to have ultra quiet leather goods for your customers safety I would be a little concerned and might try a test myself. But only if you thought you might want to change the way you make your holsters.

For those out there like me we like to hear all this discussion from all of you experienced makers without the negative tones.

I don't have the thousand of dollars in tools or equipment, and I haven't been through all the hides of leather that most of you have. I pick up thoughts on doing my holsters from all of you even if your doing a different style of holster. I thank all of you for a good discussion.

Lobo thanks for posting this as I don't have axcess to a press to form my holsters and see if the type of glue I am using will hold when under that kind of pressure.

I thank all of you for contributing your thoughts as it makes my learning curve shorter in my old age.

vince

[pete]

maybe I missed the entire slugfest but.........what does it matter if Elmer's works or not? Wasn't the point of using it just to stick the thing together until it could be stitched?

Please enlighten me someone if I missed it all together.

pete

[Dwight]

Just addressed a post in the "sewing leather" category dealing with cementing leather prior to sewing, and I thought I would pass on another little time-and-money-saving item I discovered.

Hey, . . . thanks, Lobo, . . . I normally use regular old carpenter's contact cement, . . . (it does wonders for a stuffy head early in the morning ), . . but I did make one holster one time with Elmer's white carpenter glue. It didn't do to suit me so I ripped it apart, . . . literally pulling the glue off the leather, . . . and that was when I decided that contact cement was my friend and I was "sticking" to it.

If I understand you correct, . . . this is the yellowish glue that you used, . . . not the white stuff. I just may give that a try, . . . but the white stuff is reserved for the wood shop and/or paper.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Ian]

Wasn't the point of using it just to stick the thing together until it could be stitched?

Please enlighten me someone if I missed it all together.

pete

True, but it is more than that. You need your edges to stay together even after they're stiched so that when they're burnished and painted they appear as a single edge. Also, two side cements such as contact and Barge adhere instantly, so there's no drying time. Personally, I liked the old Barge (before they changed the formula) the best because of the longer working time. Since they changed it, I use regular hardware store contact cement.

If I'm just holding stuff together for a quick repair, while I stitch it, I sometimes even use double sided tape.

[Shorts]

I've used some Elmer's wood glue for a bit on holsters when I was out of leather specific glue. Unfortunately Elmer's is water soluble. The method I mold my holsters with, water soluble glue makes for a terrible bonding agent, especially once the holster is dried and ready for dye. Aside from holding the holster together while being sewn I've noticed the glue does the job of fusing the leather together at the edges so that the burnished edge does not crack, at the least.

[Lobo]

Thanks for all the responses, positive and negative. I wish all of you the best life can offer.

There are those who would prefer to attack and antagonize. There are those who would prefer to impose their opinions as the only authority on any subject. All I can say is to review the original title of this post in context with all the garbage that has followed, then you will see what all of this nonsense is about.

The thing that I lack right now is an emoticon that will depict a dog and a fire hydrant. That would express it quite well.

[Rayban]

That image is quite clear in my mind....very classy.

I think another good emoticon for you would be one that represents....."please don't bother to post on my thread unless you agree with me"......

[Tkleather1]

That image is quite clear in my mind....very classy.

I think another good emoticon for you would be one that represents....."please don't bother to post on my thread unless you agree with me"......

LOL!!!!

[1Man]

Hey Lobo, can you post a link to your site so we can take a look at some of your work? I'm curious to see what your stuff looks like. I tried a Googl search but didn't find anything. Thanks.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Lobo, I asked a simple question and offered advice based my own experience. You still haven't acknowledged the concern I brought up, which was whether the glue you used will be a problem in the long run. Instead you made insinuations about my products and my methodologies, and I don't understand why. You also accused me of an "in your face" response. My question was and is completely legitimate, and relevant. I was in no way terse or negative in my first post, and I believe my second post was very civil. You, sir are the one who chose to "attack and antagonize" with your response to my post, and I think you would see that if you looked at this thread objectively.

I would also like to point out that I do not want to impose my opinion about holster construction "as the only authority on any subject". I will share my experience whenever I believe I have something to offer, and I will even tell people why I do things the way I do them. If someone has a different way to do things that proves to be better, I will look into it and change my methodologies if I am able. More than once I have had to change my ideas about holster making when I thought I had a good grasp on things, only to find I have so much more to learn.

In fact, I admit I didn't realize there are differences between Elmer's Glue and Elmer's White Glue until reading this thread. I still don't know whether either or both is water soluble or not, or how long they last after wet forming. You might be able to shed some light on that matter based on your experience, and I would still very much like to hear your thoughts on the jubject in relevance to my original concern. If I am incorrect in my thinking, I will gladly admit it and add one more helpful trick of the trade to my repertoire.

I apologize for offending you with my initial post, although I honestly can't understand why it upset you. If you like, I will refrain from asking questions or commenting on any of your threads in the future. I would, however, like to leave one final piece of advice:

If you came here to learn, you would probably do well to swallow your pride and take any constructive criticism that is offered to you at face value without taking it too personally. If you came here to teach, then I hope you will find a better way to respond to challenging questions than to antagonize the one who asked them. - You made it clear that when you got started, you had no access to the internet or to the advice and guidance of other experienced professional holster makers. You do have those things at your disposal now, and it would be a real shame not to utilize them.