Saddle to identify - mclellan looking

[pella]

Hi there,

just get this nice looking saddle for my collection, the guy told me"it's a cavalry saddle" well i dont think so, no marking. But some tooling kind of basketweave and some stars on the corner. There is some star rivets (tubular rivets) and there was tapaderos on the 3" wide stirrups (still rivets that show that) All fittings iron.

narrow tree, dont fit my horse of course, rawhide covered, laced with rawhide. Tree is cover with wool fabric underneat.

Leather is quite nice and good quality, it is similar to my old trooper saddles in color and texture.

There is still the latigo ties on the near-side

Do you think it is a south american paso fino saddle?

thank you for your information, wish i could ride it!

Edited May 8, 2009 by pella

[HorsehairBraider]

Well, I've got an old McClelland, and it is not one of those... at least, it is nothing like mine.

If it *is* an old Paso Fino saddle that would be really cool. But it seems to me it would not have a narrow tree for that breed... although they are small, the ones I have are very round and need a little wider tree.

Can't wait to see what others say! It's a really neat old saddle.

[pella]

i know it is not a mclellan, i think the old guy was thinking it was a cavalry saddle because of the overall look.

I also think paso are quite barrel like. But well, a lot of older saddle were narrower. It is maybe not that at all.

It is the first time i see such a saddle.

Edited May 8, 2009 by pella

[rustyriggin]

I'm at a loss as to what kind it is, if it is a calvary saddle, the stirrup fenders look like it would be an officers saddle. The tooling is what makes me wonder about it being calvary.

[Echo4V]

Pella- I definately think this is a south american saddle. I don't know if it's specifically a Paso Fino saddle or not although it does look similar to the terique saddles they use on Pasos. It really looks a lot like the south american saddles that curbstrap posted a picture of on the other saddle ID thread you have going.

david

[mendedbowl]

years ago i had a piece of one of those hanging out at the barn (don't know how i acquired it)

your's looks in better condition though. hope you find out what it is.

ken

[pella]

I ask other people around and yes, it all go to south america. I think it is made to rig center fire. with a V

Would love to see one complete as i would like to reproduce the tapaderos, they are missing

[Denise]

Pella,

Is it possible it may be a English style cavalry saddle? I googled British Cavalry saddle images and came up with a couple of interesting sites. This one talks of cavalry saddles made in Montreal. See what you think.

http://kaisersbunker.com/cef/equipment/cefe25.htm

[pella]

Hello Denise

i ask an expert in english and canadian cavalry and he told me it is not. He told me there is similarities with american cavalry saddle so for now thats all i have for information....

I have a book on cavalry saddle and yes some are similar but none is exactly alike. The book show the exact same stirrup i have on the saddle, some have a similar pommel (jennifer), but not the cantle.

And the rigging seem to be more south american.

These old cavalry saddle were very narrow, like mine. But i think south american too were narrow...so...For now i can say it is south american as i have no marking of cavalry on the saddle.

[Echo4V]

Denise- those saddles on your link are what is called a UP (universal pattern) saddle. Today they are generally called a trooper saddle. It's hard to tell in the photos ( because they have all the accoutrements on them) but they are actually very different than the one Pella posted. Those saddles are made with two bars connected to iron bows for the cantle and pommel. The Iron bows have cordage stretched between them and the seat is attached to that cordage (this saddle is the oldest example of a suspended seat I have seen) also the bows have hinges on each end which are attached to the bars so the bars will adjust to any angle of back (it's my theory that's why it's called a universal pattern) For more information on them you can google UP Saddles.

David

[pella]

The up saddle are not all hinged. I think they are called universal pattern because the pattern has the same for saddler in England, canada, australia, etc...

[BBAYS]

Check out ebay. Type in saddle tree. Someone is selling a tree very similar tree to this saddle. This saddle looks like a version of whats called a Grimsley Dragoon. A cavalry saddle used before the Civil War.

[barra]

The term 'Pattern' refers to a specification as laid down by the British War Department to govern the manufacture of equipment for her armed forces. These patterns ensure that the various companies contracted to manufacture this equipment supply items of a known and compatible standard.

Of the various patterns the 1912 was the one with the swivel bars and I believe this was actually patented in 1909. The UP 1890 and UP 1902 had fixed bars. Other interesting changes to the 1912 was that the flaps on the 1912 were buttoned to the bars instead of screwed and the cross straining webs were stitched onto the flap on one side and laced to the other.

Back to Pella's saddle. I agree with BBays, the pommel is very Grimsley-esq and the cantle looks like an Artillery drivers version of the Grimsley. I don't believe this saddle is Military because of the tooling. Also the Serge lining directly against the underside of the bars with no apparent flocking makes this a very interesting saddle.

Barra

[Echo4V]

Barra- I can definately see the resemblance to the Grimsley in the pommel but, wouldn't the skirts, rigging and cantle distinguish this from a Grimsley? I have never seen a Grimsley that was double rigged...they were all single rigged and used with a surcingle (at least the ones I have seen or seen pictures of) as well as the cantle had a sort of horn on it as well as coat strap holes for attaching the valise.

I couldn't find any pictures of original Grimsleys right off but here's a link to some repros for you guys to look at and compare this to.

http://www.americanmilitarysaddle.com/1805.html

By the way...thanks for the info about the meaning of the UP name and the fact that not all had hinges on the bows.

David

[barra]

http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/M18856A.JPEG

A modified Grimsley Artillery drivers saddle tree.

I was actually just referring to the tree on Pella's saddle being Grimsley-esq. The skirts and rigging has me stumped.

Barra

Edited May 12, 2009 by barra

[pella]

Barra: this is exactly my tree with the funny rounded back looking cantle!!!! Maybe a saddler just decide making his own private saddle on that kind of tree, who know.

[Denise]

I am always amazed by the breadth and depth of knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thanks for the education!

[Yonatan]

Pella, I posted my thoughts about your saddle on the "Vintage Saddle" thread,

by mistake--I was reading both threads. So I'll repeat myself here and say once again,

that I think your saddle is South American, probably Colombian, built on a modified

McClellan tree. Compare the details to other modified McClellans used in northern

South America and Central America. You can see that the riggin style is identical to most

Colombian saddles too. The fork on your saddle comes to a higher, sharper point on top.

But strip off the leather in your mind's eye, and I think you'll easily be able to picture a

basic McClellan tree, again, with some modifications. Compare the style of border stamping with Colombian saddles, and I think you'll see the similarity there as well.

JD

[oldtimer]

I agree, Yonatan ! The saddle has the typical South American look , so I could bet a dollar or two on that !

[grumpyguy]

I don't want to sound like a "know it all," because really I don't. While it is possible it could be from South America there is another possibility, as Denise mentioned there are a number of calvary saddles beside the Mc Clellan. Your saddle definately has some cavalry style stirrups. During the era prior to the Civil War period as well as some time after, there was a popularity in what was known as "Plantation" or also known as "Gentelman's saddles." Many old pictures of particularly southern mounted units will show there was not much standardization in horse equipment used. Added to that officers often would use what they preferred over the issued gear. (Both North and South.) Your saddle does not appear to be that old, or has recieved exceptional care. The narrow bars would tend to make me think it is either an older saddle or for other breeds of horses than are commonly found in the states today. One tree that was commonly used in these types were called "Jennifer" patterns. They were made purely for riding and were not designed as a working rig. (Standardbreds and some walking type horses were and are shown in more of this type of saddle, they are typiaclly narrower than Quarter type horses. Might be interesting to check into that as well.) These trees are somewhat weaker in design than western working saddles. Some tree makers still make and sell them. (I've seen the tree advertized in the printed Ritter Saddle tree catalog from 1990.) Without a careful inspection of the saddle and tree it is not possible to even guess, but it does look similar. You might be right about the rigging as this was a common rigging for these types of saddles.

(Also noted are the lack of hardware for attaching cavalry type gear.)

[pella]

I have a trooper saddle from 1892 and leather is quite the same condition as this one, so for the age i dont know.

What i can say right now is that the modified grimsley tree that barra post in link is very much like mine, just my seat is longer.

My husband did find this picture on the web and save for me.

It was stated as a "old spanish iberian saddle" is is the exact same tree and same rigging, very very similar...just in a more "western fashion"

i contact the guy hope he can provide information...

[Yonatan]

Here's an example of a Colombian "tereque" saddle. Of course, it's a much new model. And they just LOVE to keep tinkering with them every season.. So it's hard to find a brand new model identical to that old "Iberian" saddle you posted up above. But if I had the time, I bet I could dig up a shot of one just like yours, from years ago.

[pella]

Yonatan: are you living in south america? Yes this tereque is similar to mine

[Yonatan]

Yonatan: are you living in south america? Yes this tereque is similar to mine

No, Pella. I don't live in South America. I just happen to know about their

differnt types of saddles. I own a lot of traditional McClellan saddles too, so I've taken

an interest in the various ways in which they've been modified here and there.

[Echo4V]

After having seen the Modified Grimsley that Barra posted a link to and having seen several military saddles that were "refitted" for civilian use I would have to say that Barra has probably hit the nail on the head here. It could still be a South American saddle though (meaning it was refit for civilian use in South America) as the Army is still notorious for giving away used equipment as support to other countries.

Here is a link to a picture of a new jennifer saddle. It was basically a Grimsley that was made specifically for American Civil War use by southern calvary.

http://www.onesixthcavsaddles.com/id14.html

David