what's a 97-10 worth?

[justken]

Hi all! I've been thinking about upgradeing and replaceing my Singer 97-10. It's all original,has wax pot and everything but a bobbin winder. I use this machine every day on everything from 6 oz and up. Don't see many around and am wondering what thay are worth these days. Know there was one on Cregslist a while back that thay were asking something like 8,000 for, but don't know if it ever sold or not. That seems a bit on the high side to me,but i'd let it go for that. Thanks for any info....Just Ken

[ryano]

Hi all! I've been thinking about upgradeing and replaceing my Singer 97-10. It's all original,has wax pot and everything but a bobbin winder. I use this machine every day on everything from 6 oz and up. Don't see many around and am wondering what thay are worth these days. Know there was one on Cregslist a while back that thay were asking something like 8,000 for, but don't know if it ever sold or not. That seems a bit on the high side to me,but i'd let it go for that. Thanks for any info....Just Ken

What are you upgrading to? I have one and wouldn't trade it for any new sewing machine. I haven't sewn on a nicer eyed needle machine than 97-10. Just wondering why you are getting rid of it?

By the way, Go Bobcats! I graduated from OU, Ross College of Engineering. I think of Athens quite often. I spent too much time in the Smiling Skull when I was there! lol Do you ever do any work for Uncle Bucks or Chris Wolf (aka Wolfie and Detroit) owner of the Skull?

Edited November 17, 2009 by ryano

[justken]

What are you upgrading to? I have one and wouldn't trade it for any new sewing machine. I haven't sewn on a nicer eyed needle machine than 97-10. Just wondering why you are getting rid of it?

By the way, Go Bobcats! I graduated from OU, Ross College of Engineering. I think of Athens quite often. I spent too much time in the Smiling Skull when I was there! lol Do you ever do any work for Uncle Bucks or Chris Wolf (aka Wolfie and Detroit) owner of the Skull?

Hi Ryano, I work in Stocker,probly hasn't changed very much. Only reason I'm thinking about parting with 97-10 is I've been having problems finding needles for it.I learned to sew on it about 30 years ago and it's still the first machine I turn to.Everytime I'm up to Weaver's I keep looking at their Adlers and think I could probly replace the 97-10 and 144 both with one machine.

[Cobra Steve]

Hi Ryano, I work in Stocker,probly hasn't changed very much. Only reason I'm thinking about parting with 97-10 is I've been having problems finding needles for it.I learned to sew on it about 30 years ago and it's still the first machine I turn to.Everytime I'm up to Weaver's I keep looking at their Adlers and think I could probly replace the 97-10 and 144 both with one machine.

Hi justken, I have sold hundreds of Cobra Class 4's in the past year, and nothing but praise. The Singer 97-10 is one of the best(if not the best) at what it is designed for, but in my opinion, the Cobra Class 4 is more versatile, and easy to use. Contact all of the dealers and listen to what they say, and make your decision. Hey Ryano, if you read this, please call me, I need to ask you a question regarding our last phone conversation. Thanks, Steve

[ryano]

From what I've found on the net, the 97-10 seems to be selling between 2500-3500. What model of Singer 144 do you have? I am heading to Athens in a couple of weeks to see some friends that planted themselves there after college. Do you mind if I come visit your shop?

Thanks,

Ryan

[steveh]

Hi Ryano, I work in Stocker,probly hasn't changed very much. Only reason I'm thinking about parting with 97-10 is I've been having problems finding needles for it.I learned to sew on it about 30 years ago and it's still the first machine I turn to.Everytime I'm up to Weaver's I keep looking at their Adlers and think I could probly replace the 97-10 and 144 both with one machine.

I beleive you could have your machine 97-10, adjusted to use a common 794 needle system.

[justken]

From what I've found on the net, the 97-10 seems to be selling between 2500-3500. What model of Singer 144 do you have? I am heading to Athens in a couple of weeks to see some friends that planted themselves there after college. Do you mind if I come visit your shop?

Thanks,

Ryan

I'll give you a call friday and your more than welcome to stop by at any time.

[neelsaddlery]

Hello:

I think it would be hard to find a buyer for a 97-10 if it were in the $2500.00-$3500.00 price range. I have seen a lot of these machines go at the Weaver auction for $1000.00 or less.

The 97-10 can be converted to use the 794 needle system. But after the conversion it will only sew 5/8" thick.

My advice is to sell the machine for what you can get out of it, and then call the sellers of the 441 class machines.

We all have sold a pile of these 441 clones over the years, and the customer service you'll get from Cowboy, Cobra, or Artisan is top notch.

Basically, the only decision to make involves who is offering the best deal at the time, with the most extras.

Hope this is of some help to you. If you have any additional questions, please let me know.

Edited December 21, 2009 by neelsaddlery

[ryano]

Hello:

I think it would be hard to find a buyer for a 97-10 if it were in the $2500.00-$3500.00 price range. I have seen a lot of these machines go at the Weaver auction for $1000.00 or less.

The 97-10 can be converted to use the 794 needle system. But after the conversion it will only sew 5/8" thick.

My advice is to sell the machine for what you can get out of it, and then call the sellers of the 441 class machines.

We all have sold a pile of these 441 clones over the years, and the customer service you'll get from Cowboy, Cobra, or Artisan is top notch.

Basically, the only decision to make involves who is offering the best deal at the time, with the most extras.

Hope this is of some help to you. If you have any additional questions, please let me know.

What you are saying is false. Why would you say the 97-10 will only sew 5/8 after the 794 needle conversion. Your machines use the same needle system and you claim they will sew 3/4 to 7/8 of an inch? You even claimed your 7-33 clone will sew an inch with the 794 needle system. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why you would say the 97-10 will only sew 5/8 unless you are just throwing that in for a sales pitch. I have a 97-10 and have sewn 7/8 easily with a 794 needle. There are more than one solution for needles for the 97-10 besides stepping down to the 794 system.

There are claims that the China clones are good leather harness machines and they are not. They have no pricker feet, no rein round attachments, no attachments to lay the bottom stitch under the surface. Yes they have foot to lay the top stitch under the surface, but that side is not against the horse and if you put that side against the horse the outside would look like crap because the bottom is unacceptable to be facing out. The only leather harness people I know that use these machines are Amish and that goes without saying.

Your machines as well as the 97-10 are not good leather harness machines. Randall/Cambell is the best for harness and the Landis 3 is the best for saddles hands down.

[jimsaddler]

What you are saying is false. Why would you say the 97-10 will only sew 5/8 after the 794 needle conversion. Your machines use the same needle system and you claim they will sew 3/4 to 7/8 of an inch? You even claimed your 7-33 clone will sew an inch with the 794 needle system. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why you would say the 97-10 will only sew 5/8 unless you are just throwing that in for a sales pitch. I have a 97-10 and have sewn 7/8 easily with a 794 needle. There are more than one solution for needles for the 97-10 besides stepping down to the 794 system.

There are claims that the China clones are good leather harness machines and they are not. They have no pricker feet, no rein round attachments, no attachments to lay the bottom stitch under the surface. Yes they have foot to lay the top stitch under the surface, but that side is not against the horse and if you put that side against the horse the outside would look like crap because the bottom is unacceptable to be facing out. The only leather harness people I know that use these machines are Amish and that goes without saying.

Your machines as well as the 97-10 are not good leather harness machines. Randall/Cambell is the best for harness and the Landis 3 is the best for saddles hands down.

Hi Ryano

Please remember there are people out here who have made a living out of Leather for a great many years and are sharing their Knowledge with others who are not so experienced. So please don't say that someone is giving false information like you have done.

From memory there is a constraint on the conversion owing to the extra depth the Needle has to travel for pick-up. It runs out of Groove so the Thread abraids in heavier thn 5/8". Like I acually sewed A 3/4" Back Band on a 45K25 but the Thread was abraided and and weakened. So that Backband still sits on my Shelf to remind me. The Needle Groove stops at 1/2", so the Thread has no protection from there on.

I have owned and used several Awl and Needle Machines in my lifetime and found that although they do a wonderful job of stitching. They leave a lot to be desired for Harness work. The learning curve for Staff to operate them is too long for a start.

The Clones fit the bill nicely with all of their attachments, Servo Motors and the ease of learning. As well as this there is a wealth of info available from this Forums Contributors.

When I say I wish I had one 40 years ago I am very serious. At times I had as many as 6 different Machines (including Awl & Needle Union L Stitch) to do what I now do with one 441. Also take into account that none had reverse, so there was a lot of back tacking by Hand as well to finish off the ends.

Now I have a 441 on Castors that I can move easily from Bench to Bench and Jobs can be accomplished so easily. This week I'm repairing Saddles and Heavy Harness and I've had to sew from 2.5mm to 1" in substance. I have not had to alter the Tension or Feet all week and every job has won praise from the Customer as to how neat the Stitching and workmanship is (please remember these are Old items of Repair). Then to finnish off this week I am doing New Skirts and Stirrup Leathers for a Little Western Saddle with the same 441. So this is why I say Awl and Needle is nice. But for practical use and ease of use the 441 Clones are very hard to beat because of the range they can do so easily.

So please brag about your Awl and Needles for what they can do! BUT! there are Limitations (let alone the Price) for the average Leathercrafter.

By the way I love old Machines of all types and want an old Randall for the heck of it, GOOD Machines.

ALSO I love Hand Sewing which is better than all of the Machines. For instance My Hands will sew an Honest 1mm to several inches or more with just a simple change of Awl and Needles. The resulting Stitch is so Neat back and front that an Up-market Customer once seriously asked me to make an odd mistake to show it's Hand sewn. I haven't found a Machine to beat that yet. The only constraint is my Lousy Arthritic Back which only allows me 20 or thirty minutes Stitching then needs a day or two to recover. Hence I can do several hours at the 441 without the recovery time requiremnt. All Machines are subject to Wear and Tear, my Backs out of Warranty!

So please Keep up the good work with both eyes open.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[ryano]

Jim,

Thank you for your reply and valuable information. I stated the false information was about the 97-10 and harness only, not the rest of the information. The needle groove is one and a half inches on the 794 needles and that's why I wanted to know why only 5/8 on the 97-10 machine.

Buying a new machine is not always the answer though. These are super big investments as you well know. The dealers on the site are very good on letting people know what other options are out there. They all seem to play well together too, so to speak. I know the clones are very versatile on materials. I also know they are an all around good machine for the price and the beginner. With all machines, there are jobs they are not suited for. I know there is one dealer working hard on getting different attachments made up for his machines. As far as reverse is concerned, heavy leather stitchers do not need reverse when you are using a leather needle. Back stitching cuts the thread. This one is always up for debate. People on the site have said the leather needle does not cut their thread on back stitching. I just know mine cuts the thread on back stitching. So I use stitching wax and sew to 1960's military specs.

I understand what you mean about the learning curve also. It's not just with the needle and awl stitchers, but sewing with a machine in general. Then there is the knowledge about the materials, sewing allowance, tools and so on and so on. This stuff is not easy.

I did not mean to step on anyone's toes here and apologize if I did. I do not think there was any known misguided information either. Sometimes it is hard to type what you want to say because you cannot show any emotion. Thanks again for taking the time to respond Jim.

Best regards,

Ryan Osborn

[barra]

Jim,

So I use stitching wax and sew to 1960's military specs.

Ryan. What do you mean by 1960's MILSPECS????

Barra

[ryano]

I have an old army sewing and sewing machine book that that tells you, how to start and stop the stitch, and not to back stitch on leather. To end you step over one stitch and come back 5 stitches and trim to surface. You start the same way. Keep in mind that stitching wax is used.

[barra]

Never heard of that one and my life is governed by MILSPECS. I guess it is like when a webbing harness is stitched your "supposed" to form your box stitch pattern by stepping up one stitch and coming accross to the other side, or a bit like drop stitches.

Thanks for the info

[jimsaddler]

Jim,

Thank you for your reply and valuable information. I stated the false information was about the 97-10 and harness only, not the rest of the information. The needle groove is one and a half inches on the 794 needles and that's why I wanted to know why only 5/8 on the 97-10 machine.

Buying a new machine is not always the answer though. These are super big investments as you well know. The dealers on the site are very good on letting people know what other options are out there. They all seem to play well together too, so to speak. I know the clones are very versatile on materials. I also know they are an all around good machine for the price and the beginner. With all machines, there are jobs they are not suited for. I know there is one dealer working hard on getting different attachments made up for his machines. As far as reverse is concerned, heavy leather stitchers do not need reverse when you are using a leather needle. Back stitching cuts the thread. This one is always up for debate. People on the site have said the leather needle does not cut their thread on back stitching. I just know mine cuts the thread on back stitching. So I use stitching wax and sew to 1960's military specs.

I understand what you mean about the learning curve also. It's not just with the needle and awl stitchers, but sewing with a machine in general. Then there is the knowledge about the materials, sewing allowance, tools and so on and so on. This stuff is not easy.

I did not mean to step on anyone's toes here and apologize if I did. I do not think there was any known misguided information either. Sometimes it is hard to type what you want to say because you cannot show any emotion. Thanks again for taking the time to respond Jim.

Best regards,

Ryan Osborn

G'Day Ryan

I love your good manners! thankyou. This why LW is such a good Forum for learning.

Reverse is easy to use with a Leather point as long as you position the stroke carefully when switching to reverse. A fraction late and it will jump in the same hole, a fraction early and it cuts the stitch. A bit of practice and you'll achieve a good result. One word of warning though. When using Braid in the bobbin don't reverse if its to be seen as for some reason it stays exposed and looks yucky. Anyone else had this problem?

I'm interested in your Military Specs from a historical view. Would it be possible to get a copy of them somehow.

Please have a Happy Day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[ryano]

Greetings Jim,

The old U.S. Army manual I have is very neat. It has many different kinds of sewing machine repair manuals enclosed between it's covers. Anyone who has a 111w should have one of these. All the machines are Singer. It also explains how to sew many different items and materials. I will see how much it will cost to get it copied. The local print shop is very reasonable and do a great job. It would be nice to have it put on a cd. Well take care and have a great weekend. It is a deep freeze in my neck of the woods.

Ryan

[jimsaddler]

Greetings Jim,

The old U.S. Army manual I have is very neat. It has many different kinds of sewing machine repair manuals enclosed between it's covers. Anyone who has a 111w should have one of these. All the machines are Singer. It also explains how to sew many different items and materials. I will see how much it will cost to get it copied. The local print shop is very reasonable and do a great job. It would be nice to have it put on a cd. Well take care and have a great weekend. It is a deep freeze in my neck of the woods.

Ryan

Many thanks Ryan

Can you get it copied to PDF format on CD? As a lot of manuals are converted that way now.

We're having another Rainy warm day here. Rained every day since Christmas after none since July.

Sorry I cant work out how convert Warm Weather to send to you.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[harnessman]

Greetings Jim,

The old U.S. Army manual I have is very neat. It has many different kinds of sewing machine repair manuals enclosed between it's covers. Anyone who has a 111w should have one of these. All the machines are Singer. It also explains how to sew many different items and materials. I will see how much it will cost to get it copied. The local print shop is very reasonable and do a great job. It would be nice to have it put on a cd. Well take care and have a great weekend. It is a deep freeze in my neck of the woods.

Ryan

Hi Ryan

I would be intrested in a copy as well.

Thanks

JIm