Stamping Tool B S

[WyomingSlick]

I have read a lot on the internet, both here and on other sites, concerning tool quality. I have come across numerous referances to stamping tools bending and breaking. I have a very hard time understanding most of these stories. What the hell are these folks doing?

When I was first learning leatherwork in 4-H, my instructor (4-H project leader) prepared a learning demonstration for us. We each had 3 scraps of leather, a mallet, swivel knife, and a med-large pearshader. One piece of leather was dry, one was very wet, and one was cased properly. First he had us attempt carving on each piece of leather until we were clear on the differance between carving properly prepared leather and NOT! After this was clear to us we then moved on to stamping the three pieces of leather. He then demonstrated what the effect was that we were looking for on a properly cased piece of leather, pointing out to us the way the leather retained the tool impressions, and how much darker they were then the leather surface. We then tried stamping on each of our three pieces. I remember that one of the bigger guys was able to punch clear through the wet piece of saddle skirting that he had. Fortunately, this was done on a poundo board, so no harm done to the stamping tool.

In the class sessions to follow, many times our leader would reinforce this lesson by observing that the piece we were working on was too wet or too dry. I was extremely fortunate to have a very experianced teacher - most of the kids in our county were learning from much less knowledgable leaders. When fair time came around, it was rare for one of Mr. Hahn's student to win anything less than a blue ribbon, and we took home many championship purple ribbons.

Now to come to the point. How in hell are you folks destroying all these tools? Are you trying to tool dry rawhide or something like that? Is it that you don't understand the importance of preparing tooling leather by casing it to it's optimum working state, and then keeping it near there while you are working? Or is it that you are trying to achieve a higher burnish by working the leather on the dry side? I have never bent a Craftool in forty some years of leather poundin' although I have come across some in my eBay buys that were bent. I have also come across some that were mushroomed like an old cold chisel too. In either case, I figure the fault lies with the tool user, NOT the tool!

In summation, 99.99% of my tooling is done tap..tap..tap, not wham, wham, wham!

[Tkleather1]

Well I have bent a few crafttools but only the ones that are used at an angle. I have bent a few of the pear shaders over a peiod of time and a few of theborder tools where I only want a partial impression. Now keep in mind that these are all of the newer era of craftool. I have a few of the older same style tools that I have never had a problem with. Now that being said I do beleive alot of it was operator error but some of it was definetly the tool. I have since learned alot and now I do know the difference between proper leather staus and not. I am no expert but I do believe that there is a huge quality difference between craftool and some of the other custom tool makers. if there was no difference why would so many people go buy the "better" tools?

You get what you pay for!!!

Tim Worley

TK-Leather

Edited January 7, 2010 by Tkleather1

[bruce johnson]

The stamps usually referred to were mostly one line of stamps, and not craftools. I bought them because they had good impressions, some designs that were different, and seemed like a good value for the price. I bent and broke my fair share of them with cased leather and a 16 oz maul. Not everybody had problems with these stamps, but plenty of us did.

[Timd]

I've wondered that myself, Slick. I'm a 6'1" 295 lb carpenter, so I swing a mean hammer, but i've never felt the need to hit a stamp that hard. Now these explanations are putting it in perspective, thank you.

[WyomingSlick]

The stamps usually referred to were mostly one line of stamps, and not craftools. I bought them because they had good impressions, some designs that were different, and seemed like a good value for the price. I bent and broke my fair share of them with cased leather and a 16 oz maul. Not everybody had problems with these stamps, but plenty of us did.

I am wondering if the line of tools you are referring to here are HC's Pro Crafters. I too, bought around a dozen of them during one of their promotional sales. Upon examining them when they arrived I noted the casting lines that bisect the tools and from my knowledge of metalurgy, I concluded that they were most likely made by pressure casting of powdered steel. That should not be a problem if they were made right to start with, and so far I have had no problem with them.

Now I am curious; were you able to get them replaced or your money refunded by the outfit you bought them from? I haven't had any bad experiance with the ones I bought, but then I have only used a couple of them very much at all. LOL Maybe I should sell them on eBay and see if I can't get $78 for tools that only costs $12 on sale! I saw the posts that discussed that event.

[rickeyfro]

Ive had about 4 tools bend, all hidecrafters, all used on properly cased leather, none beaten on "wham, wham, wham" and all of them replaced by hidecrafter with no problem

[bruce johnson]

Slick,

Yes and yes.

[Kevinjohnson]

I bent an early Barry King veiner and pearshader. At that time, Barry was making the shank of the tool round instead of elongated where the impression tied into the shank. I do follow the Council mold of deep tooling but actually bent the tools stamping a pair of spur straps. The tools were brand new and bent immediately. Barry replaced them w/ no questions and I noticed latter that many of his tools were left beefier through the transition. Have bent some craptools by useing them for pry-bars, screw drivers, awls, nail sets, ect. Craptools actually work good for everything but their intended purpose.

[Jordan]

The only craftool I have bent when laid next to another looked like a different type of metal. Maybe a bad casting run, looked like pot metal and it did bend while using it at an angle.

[wildrose]

In my years of using CraFTtools, I've never bent a one. I did have the tail break off a little cat tool that kids mostly used (likely improperly) as I teach frequently. I've used pretty much exclusively CraFTools and have one several ribbons with the results. And I've never had a customer complain about the results either.

Are other tools higher quality? Sure! But for some of us, CraFTools are what we can afford.

[Johanna]

I wish I had a pic of Billy 2 shews' tools with their mangled peened tops. He uses a regular carpenters hammer, and not only is the metal on metal sound loud, it kills the tools fast. I wonder how one of the better quality tools would hold up to that kind of abuse? I just happened to think about his messed up tools making beautiful art while reading this discussion.

Johanna

[Jordan]

Yes I was watching his dvd the other day and all his tools looked like shrooms. LOL works for him!

[WyomingSlick]

I bent an early Barry King veiner and pearshader. At that time, Barry was making the shank of the tool round instead of elongated where the impression tied into the shank. I do follow the Council mold of deep tooling but actually bent the tools stamping a pair of spur straps. The tools were brand new and bent immediately. Barry replaced them w/ no questions and I noticed latter that many of his tools were left beefier through the transition. Have bent some craptools by useing them for pry-bars, screw drivers, awls, nail sets, ect. Craptools actually work good for everything but their intended purpose.

Gee whiz........they worked pretty damn good for Al Stohlman's intended purposes for a lot of years. Or are you referring only to the recently made Craftools when you say "craptools"?

[Kevinjohnson]

Gee whiz........they worked pretty damn good for Al Stohlman's intended purposes for a lot of years. Or are you referring only to the recently made Craftools when you say "craptools"?

I actually do have a few old craftools that aren't bad (pre chromed). They are also not that good, average. Not as good as old McMillans, Hackbarth, ect. Craptools do have their place. Almost everyone in the leather trade, at one time or anouther, probably started w/ a pile of these tools due to the availability, price and lack of knowledge. As a persons skills progress, however, so do the quality of there tools. Quality of tools most often corrilates w/ quality of work. Not all the time, but most. When Harbor Freight becomes the official tool of NASA, I'll throw out my vintage/handmade, top shelf tools and buy a gift certificate to Tandy's. As for the new craptools..... make an impression of a new craptool and put it next to a similar impression of a Don King or a Bob Beard or a Woodruff or a Lonnie Height and ask your customer which one looks better.

Ever noticed the number of craptools that people acumulate. These are the same people that say that they can't afford a $55 handmade tool after they have spent hundreds of dollars on useless pig metal.

If I remember right, Ann and Al did use a lot of Craftools. Their books were also promoted by Tandys. Given the quality of their work and the tool choices of today, do you think the modern day Ann and Al would load up on chromed sticks of pot iron? Really!?

[WyomingSlick]

I actually do have a few old craftools that aren't bad (pre chromed). They are also not that good, average. Not as good as old McMillans, Hackbarth, ect. Craptools do have their place. Almost everyone in the leather trade, at one time or anouther, probably started w/ a pile of these tools due to the availability, price and lack of knowledge. As a persons skills progress, however, so do the quality of there tools. Quality of tools most often corrilates w/ quality of work. Not all the time, but most. When Harbor Freight becomes the official tool of NASA, I'll throw out my vintage/handmade, top shelf tools and buy a gift certificate to Tandy's. As for the new craptools..... make an impression of a new craptool and put it next to a similar impression of a Don King or a Bob Beard or a Woodruff or a Lonnie Height and ask your customer which one looks better.

Ever noticed the number of craptools that people acumulate. These are the same people that say that they can't afford a $55 handmade tool after they have spent hundreds of dollars on useless pig metal.

If I remember right, Ann and Al did use a lot of Craftools. Their books were also promoted by Tandys. Given the quality of their work and the tool choices of today, do you think the modern day Ann and Al would load up on chromed sticks of pot iron? Really!?

LOL You sure do suffer from an extreme case of "Snap-On Fever"!! There is no doubt that a Barry King basketweave that sells for $50 or more bucks does a better job than a Craftool basketweave which sells for $3.33 as of right now. So there you have a case of one tool costing 15 times as much as another. Yes, that cost is justifiable if you are a pro producing top of the line saddles, etc. Is it justified if you are the average guy who makes a few belts, wallets, purses, etc. in a year? No! You mentioned Harbor freight tools. I googled NASCAR and I see that CRAFTSMAN are their pick. Yup, a good tool....but a Craftsman wrench doesn't cost 15 times as much as a same sized Harbor Freight wrench. I have a big toolbox full of Craftsman tools and they are good tools. I also have some beautiful Bonney and Snap-On tools that make the Craftsmans look a bit clunky. And then I have some Harbor freight tools that do just fine for tightening a bolt. But getting back to leather stamping tools. I will not say that Barry King's basket weave tools are not worth 50 bucks. I am well aware of the investment, both in tooling equipment and time, that is required to produce a stamping tool like one of Barry's basketweaves or geometrics. BUT....but the fact remains that for the average guy; he can get a whole handful of tools and many patterns that are not produced by the custom toolmakers for the same money that he spends on a few "Handmade custom tools". And does a $25 beveler from Barry work that much better than a Craftool or a Craft Japan tool? Perhaps.......... that investment is justified for the common tools like a beveler, but what about if you are talking about a seeder. In pic one, I did some beveling, both smooth and checkered, with some Barry King, Ray Hackbarth, McMillen, Craftool, Craft Japan, and one of my modified Craftools that I ground a steeper angle on and checkered. Big differance? No! And to the customer? Even a bigger no! And which seeder, again from differant makers, are you going to pick as the best? And in the next pic - which bargrounder is the best of the 5 differant makers? The big differance to the customer is going to be the overall effect of your tooling which is created 95% by your facility with your tools and your artistic ability. I have looked at a lot of leatherwork over the years and it is the overall appearance that strikes the eye first and not the individual tool impressions. Perhaps it is a good selling point to point to a rack of $25 to $100 tools each to justify the price for your work, but I am sure that what is going to sell it is the quality of the actual work. And that comes from critical evaluation of your work. learning from your mistakes, and striving to do better.

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

In summation, I will not argue that custom made tools today are not worth the money, and if a fellow has the money, he should invest in some of them. But to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is totally uncalled for. No, they are not the quality they once were in the early days of the 40s - early 60s but for $3.33 each they will fill many needs for a leatherworker. And many of them, including early day vintage Craftools (No letter prefix) may be picked up on eBay for great prices.

"The use of your tools means way more than the tools you use!"

[Hilly]

<snip>

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

<snip summore>

Try carving some intricate Sheridan design with a swivel knife that doesn't swivel. Add some arthritis in the hands, and some failing eyesight. Yes, the tools need to work the way they are intended to work, or they are worth nothing. The ball bearings or whatever is in the Crattools freeze up and make it 10 time harder to not wreck a good piece of leather. Yes, I love my $100 swivel knife that the yoke spins for 20+ seconds. It's a matter of personal choice what someone feel the most comfortable with, and what works best for them.

Maybe you can create a masterpiece with a craftool. Maybe the effort it takes someone else is not worth saving the money. Maybe having to return bent craftools for a refund or exchange is more of a pain in the butt than they are worth in time, mileage, wear and tear on a vehicle, etc. It costs more just to ship a tool back than the cost of a new one. Maybe someone prefers a tool that won't break or bend when it's needed. Just because someone else is a glutton for punishment does not mean the next guy is. Some of us have been taught to buy the best quality we can afford, and if we can afford a good quality tool that will last 10 time longer than a cheapo, it is probably worth the money. Some people just prefer the professional look a good quality stamp makes.

Sure, craftools are a great way to start out, but most people who are serious about their work move on to better quality tools at some point. Until Tandy starts getting a better selection of quality tools, my money is going to the guy that already makes better tools. Just my $0.02.

[RWB]

It is hard to produce quality work without quality tools and materials. Not impossible, but hard none the less.

Ross

[WyomingSlick]

<snip>

And I will say that for most people's work I see, the biggest fault is their swivel knife work. LOL There is a lot of silly talk that goes on there also. A lot of foolish talk about "yokes that spin for 20+ seconds"!! It takes very little force to turn a yoke on a swivel knife - way less than the resistance in the leather to the turning of the blade. Tons of great swivel knife work has been produced by standard non ball bearing swivel knifes. One of those, matched with the proper leather preparation (casing), sharp and stropped blade, proper technique, and practice...with a heavy emphasis on PRACTICE, will do immeasurably more for your work than some damn ball bearing!

<snip summore>

Try carving some intricate Sheridan design with a swivel knife that doesn't swivel. Add some arthritis in the hands, and some failing eyesight. Yes, the tools need to work the way they are intended to work, or they are worth nothing. The ball bearings or whatever is in the Crattools freeze up and make it 10 time harder to not wreck a good piece of leather. Yes, I love my $100 swivel knife that the yoke spins for 20+ seconds. It's a matter of personal choice what someone feel the most comfortable with, and what works best for them.

Maybe you can create a masterpiece with a craftool. Maybe the effort it takes someone else is not worth saving the money. Maybe having to return bent craftools for a refund or exchange is more of a pain in the butt than they are worth in time, mileage, wear and tear on a vehicle, etc. It costs more just to ship a tool back than the cost of a new one. Maybe someone prefers a tool that won't break or bend when it's needed. Just because someone else is a glutton for punishment does not mean the next guy is. Some of us have been taught to buy the best quality we can afford, and if we can afford a good quality tool that will last 10 time longer than a cheapo, it is probably worth the money. Some people just prefer the professional look a good quality stamp makes.

Sure, craftools are a great way to start out, but most people who are serious about their work move on to better quality tools at some point. Until Tandy starts getting a better selection of quality tools, my money is going to the guy that already makes better tools. Just my $0.02.

A simple test to determine the value of a ball bearing yoke. 1. Hold any swivel knife in your hand as you hold it while carving. 2. Swivel the barrel and note the force required to turn it. 3. Now repeat 1 and 2 while applying pressure on yoke with your finger like you do while carving and again note the amount of effort to turn it. 4. Again repeat step 3 while the blade is in cased leather making a cut.

In engineering or scientific terms the equation would be: F1 = Amount of force to rotate barrel while pressure is on yoke

F2 = Amount of force to turn blade in leather

F3 = Amount of force to carve design in leather

So you would have: F1 + F2 = F3

Now I have used quite a few differant swivel knives in my time and no, cross my fingers, I don't suffer from arthritis yet in my fifties. But with every one of the knives in the attached picture, I find that the effort to turn the blade in the leather accounts for at minimum: 90% of the effort, and in many uses; perhaps as much as 99%. The blade used and it's sharpness are of way, way more concern than the free spinning of the yoke.

I would add that the structure of the blade will make more differance than the yoke spin, ie...a hollow ground blade or a figure carving are noticably easier to carve with than the straight flat blade. Add in the quality of the carving leather and the proper casing technique and that yoke "drag" becomes a null question in comparison to the other factors affecting carving.

Yes........... you had better love that knife..........after all......... you paid $100 for it. I myself will suggest that the aspiring leather carver spend his money on several decent blades, a flat diamond honing plate, some stropping rouge, Al Stohlman's book on tools, and then practice to develop his carving skill after reading what the masters say about the subject in their books.

So, who can tell which beveler did which beveling? Identify the seeders as to maker? Whose bargrounder is best?

[bruce johnson]

I see different impressions and checkering patterns on the bevelers. It wouldn't matter to me whose they are. I would probably use a few different ones to get different effects, just like I do out of my own rack. I don't use an 809 on an interior stem, and I don't use a Woodruff on a border. I'd agree that the detail needed on a small seeder isn't much. They are each a little different, and I'd go with whatever caught my eye. I like the center 3 a little better over the two end ones. On bargrounders I kind of figure small dots are small dots. Some bargrounders are better than others about not sticking. I've got a couple that are alright, but I don't barground much. I think the bigger differences show up in the single impression stamps like baskets and blocks. To carry this "pick whose stamp is whose" I am attaching one of mine that compares a couple off the rack tools to some that cost me a little more. In all fairness to this off the rack waffle, I tried one a few weeks ago, that wasn't nearly this good.

Another interesting little deal here. I looked up some old Tandy catalogs today. I have an old Hinckley-Tandy from the late 40s probably. Stamps ranged from 50 cents to $1.50, prices on request for the bigger ones. In 1954-55, one to two dollars bought most of them. They aren't much more than that now relative to everything else.

[Hilly]

ame='Hilly' date='08 January 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1262968204' post='137887']

A simple test to determine the value of a ball bearing yoke. 1. Hold any swivel knife in your hand as you hold it while carving. 2. Swivel the barrel and note the force required to turn it. 3. Now repeat 1 and 2 while applying pressure on yoke with your finger like you do while carving and again note the amount of effort to turn it. 4. Again repeat step 3 while the blade is in cased leather making a cut.

In engineering or scientific terms the equation would be: F1 = Amount of force to rotate barrel while pressure is on yoke

F2 = Amount of force to turn blade in leather

F3 = Amount of force to carve design in leather

So you would have: F1 + F2 = F3

Now I have used quite a few differant swivel knives in my time and no, cross my fingers, I don't suffer from arthritis yet in my fifties. But with every one of the knives in the attached picture, I find that the effort to turn the blade in the leather accounts for at minimum: 90% of the effort, and in many uses; perhaps as much as 99%. The blade used and it's sharpness are of way, way more concern than the free spinning of the yoke.

I would add that the structure of the blade will make more differance than the yoke spin, ie...a hollow ground blade or a figure carving are noticably easier to carve with than the straight flat blade. Add in the quality of the carving leather and the proper casing technique and that yoke "drag" becomes a null question in comparison to the other factors affecting carving.

Yes........... you had better love that knife..........after all......... you paid $100 for it. I myself will suggest that the aspiring leather carver spend his money on several decent blades, a flat diamond honing plate, some stropping rouge, Al Stohlman's book on tools, and then practice to develop his carving skill after reading what the masters say about the subject in their books.

So, who can tell which beveler did which beveling? Identify the seeders as to maker? Whose bargrounder is best?

Who can tell which flower center is a craftool, and which one isn't?

Who can tell which basket stamp is craftool, and which one isn't?

[JRedding]

Got to throw in on this one, I agree and disagree with some of what's being said. Craftools do serve a purpose as I see it, they're great for someone to take a dip into leatherwork with before you know if it's something you'll fall in love with. They've certainly made it affordable for a lot of us to get started. If it weren't for cheap priced tools the upper end of the tool market would have very few customers. It's doubtful very many people would lay down a thousand dollars for a selection of Kings, Beards, Barnes etc. just to see if they liked tooling leather. The people who should be most supportive of cheap tools are the guys who make expensive tools because the makers of cheap tools are the ones who bring people into leather tooling initially and create customers for the makers of upper end tools. That said there is no denying the benefit of a better made tool. Better quality steel, better knurling that makes it easier to tool for long periods, and most of all a sharper, crisper imprint that can only be made by a tool that's machined instead of cast.Better tools are made by people who have a greater knowledge of how a tool will be used and what's expected of it day in and day out. That's part of what you pay for when you pay thirty to fifty dollars for a single tool, you're not only paying for a better made tool but you're also paying to receive the benefit of they're knowledge and experience using them that they apply to designing and building a better tool. I have buckets of Craftools I've bought and inherited, but I also have racks of tools I've paid a small fortune for. I do have a few Craftools amongst my regulars and I have some I don't think the finest toolers in the world could make anything look better than crap with. I'm really against cheap swivel knives, if I could only afford to splurge on one good tool it would be swivel knife, I disagree with Slick that there's little difference. My ol' truck will get up to eighty but it's not much like eighty in a sportscar, that's about the difference to me between a two hundred dollar swivel knife and a seven dollar swivel knife. I doubt you'll meet very many toolers who've really reached a high level of craftsmanship who don't mostly use the more expensive tools. If a person is tooling decent with cheap tools I would be willing to promise if you set that same person down with a selection of the finer tools there will be a very noticeable improvement in the overall quality of what they can do with better tools and the same talent.

[CitizenKate]

Well said, Mr. Redding.

Kate

[WyomingSlick]

Who can tell which flower center is a craftool, and which one isn't?

Who can tell which basket stamp is craftool, and which one isn't?

Is that the best you can do? For a rebuttal, you pick two tools that any leather carver would classify as "very critical" in that they are very important to the over all effect of the design? There is no doubt that today's custom tool makers are producing some of, if not the best stamps ever seen. And yes, I would say that if you do quite a bit of basketweaving work, or if you do quite a bit of Sheridan style carving, then you are justified in investing the $35 and $50 for those King tools. But where's the big differance in the bevelers, seeders, and bargrounders?

My point is that to dismiss Craftools as "craptools" is very unfair, and downright snobbery. No, Craftools are not what they used to be. But before Tandy bought Craftool in the early 60's from Dick Gehan they made a pretty good tool. It is an old story in this world that after a corporate takeover, the quality of a product usually declines as corporate decisions are driven more by $$$$$ than pride in their product.

I certainly think they let things slip in the last three decades. For example, in the early 50s, the average stamp cost about a buck and a half which was about the hourly wage paid the average working man. The average working man now makes 12-13 bucks an hour but does Tandy sell their tools for that? Well, no....now that they have outsourced their Craftool operation to Japan, they are selling them for $3.33.

Now is that a bargain, or not, to the many 4-H kids and Scouts who enter the hobby each year. Who do you think buys the majority of the tools they sell every year? You sure don't turn around and buy a new #200 beveler every year. If they were able to charge 12-13 dollars for the average stamp, then yes, they could still be producing all of their tools to their previous standards. Especially now that they have moved to a cheaper labor market. In that regard, it is a move they should have made a long time ago. They lost most of their quality tool makers a long time ago in the US. It will be interesting to see if they will be able to get the ball rolling in the other direction and start producing better stamps.

Edited January 9, 2010 by WyomingSlick

[Denise]

I don't use stamping tools so I am not speaking from experience, but from reading this thread, you all seem to be agreeing - the old Craftools were decent quality using tools. The newer ones are entry level tools whose quality doesn't match the old ones or the more expensive tools. To my understanding, then, knowing when a Craftool was made is important when determining it's quality.

[DaCodaBuchan]

I believe this started as a complaint against people bending tools, stating that properly cased leather and techniques would yield a bend free environment. This may or may not be true.

Now we are debating the quality of tool brands. This is something I was just researching and I'd love to see who wins in the end. My only comments are that every can not afford a DeWalt drill, that does not make their need to attach a few hinges, or build a doghouse any less important than the next mans. We here all have a need to produce a nice basket weave. If you can afford the best handmade tools I suggest you use them. I hope to someday, but that does not mean I shouldn't spend the six dollars to get a Tandy tool in the meantime. There is an obvious quality diffrence there is no argument to that. Just looking at the stamp samples in this forum you can see that there is a lot left to personal taste. Some would say that a Louis Vuitton wallet is just like the $12 one at wal-mart, others would disagree. I personaly am using the tools that came with the Ez Kit, they suck. I have nothing to compare them too but they suck. The flower stamp barely leaves a print. I have to beat the hell out of it just to make an impression. Some of that is my ability to case leather, most of it is the tool. I bought their Fluer de Lis and it works much better. Leaving me to believe that cheap tools made their way into the cheap kit. The quality of the leather tells me that they stuck bottom of the barrel stuff in that box. This leaves me to believe that I need better tools, but until then I settle. I've always been one to say that things are worth the expense.