Getting That Even Shade Of Brown

[dickf]

I've been spraying my browns through the airbrush for a while now in tandem with experimenting with dip-dying them. I'm never satisfied with how the dip dye results turn out. It seems if they dye looks good and even after the dip, the moment I get the holster wet to start forming, it ends up blotchy and stays that way. So, what dyes and methods do you guys use to get that nice even shade of brown? I'm especially interested in knowing what you use for light browns like tans.

Thanks!

[TimKleffner]

OK........Your not liking what you see with dipping.....WHY are you still messing with it?

Using your airbrush will give you a thin layer of color. Go back to the airbrush basics . Have you ever used a real spray gun for auto / cabinet finishing? Over laying the color/ finish and keeping the gun absolutely the same distance at the left and at the right.

I've used spray guns since I was a teen and still use them. the same principles apply from spray gun to airbrush.

I personally like to thin my dye about 25% just so it will go thru the airbrush with ease. After I dye, I let dry for about an hour then lightly oil, let set and apply favorite finish in about 24 hrs.

Happy tooling

Tim

[pete]

I always finish my project and then simply use a sponge(not wet but soft) to liberally rub in Bick's with the dye mixed in it. Always goes on even, buffs to a shine in 1-2 minutes.

Bo at Springfield Leather showed it to me a few years ago when I asked him how he does an antique finish. He said that he never uses antique anymore.. No need, as the dye darkens the tooling and goes on lighter on the smooth leather, doesn't need wiping and sheepskin afterwards, and treats the leather as you do it(the Bick"s restores the softness like a coat of neats would) but it doesn't darken the leather.

try it on a scrap.

pete

[$$hobby]

youre not alone.

what i do now is that i dont partially wet ANY part of the leather due to what you have observed. I will DUNK the whole piece just as you would dying it. of course this is with dip dyied leather, not sprayed.

btw, i think the mottled leahter looks more real whereas the all even color more artificial.

Edited January 30, 2010 by $$hobby

[dickf]

OK........Your not liking what you see with dipping.....WHY are you still messing with it?

I guess I'm too stubborn to let it beat me. I know people dip dye their holsters with awesome results - I'm just not one of them...yet. Ideally, I'm looking for the perfect light brown/tan and a dark brown that can both be dipped with even results.

Here's an example of what I'm trying to say:

I dyed 2 pieces of small scrap with some Fiebings saddle tan oil dye. I let it settle and dry for over 24 hours. I ended up with the *PERFECT* shade of light brown. I stitched the 2 pieces of scrap together, flesh to flesh, to simulate part of a holster. I took this newly stitched swatch to the sink and got it wet, just like I do with all of my holsters. I put a slight bend in it as my holsters are usually built on a curve and set it aside to let it dry. Immediately I noticed that the leather looked different than normal when it got wet. As it's been drying, it looks as if the edges are darker than the cetner - almost like the water is pushing the dye out toward the edges (whether or not that's the case, I'm not sure). After the scrap dries, it remains dark at the edges and somewhat blotchy in the center and much darker all over. This is the only brown dye I've been able to really submerge the piece in without the brown being so dark it's almost black.

I have zero issues with coverage and tone with the airbrush, but man, it's not the most convenient way to do it. Plus, like we know, the color is thin and doesn't penetrate like it does when it's dipped. Perhaps some leather goods aren't affected by this, but holsters get scratched and scuffed, and I'd like the dye to be as deep as possible.

[pete]

I'm telling you. Try the Bick's and dye mix. The dye goes on evenly and the Bick's resists water. I have a coaster that I made awhile back that I put a glass of water on and it left a wet ring on the coaster overnight. It didn't soak in and didn't leave a ring so I would think that you could dunk your holster to mould and SHOULDN'T have a problem with blotching.

pete

[GrampaJoel]

pete

May I ask which Brick's product you are using to apply the color dye?

Thanks

Joel

[Leather Bum]

I believe he's referring to the Bick 4 conditioner which you would use to mix with the dye color of your choice. . .

I still don't think that will give the deep penetration that is needed on a gun holster, though.

In fact, what has just been described reminded me of a very frustrating problem I encountered with a first-aid kit cover. After the leather had dried from wet molding, I first tried soaking it with dye (Fiebing's Pro Oil) by pouring the dye all over it, but because that did not produce as deep penetration as I wanted, I actually dipped (more literally soaked) the molded piece in a tub of dye (it took a long time to penetrate deeper into the leather, and it still was not fully struck through from what I could tell). When dry, while the dye coverage was acceptable (see first picture), now I wanted to re-shape the piece somewhat. . . So I wet it with water again, and that's when it turned terribly blotchy (second picture). It seemed like no matter how much more dye or denatured alcohol I applied (I even soaked it in water again), the color would not even out to what it originally had been. I think I ended up over-oiling the piece attempting to restore it after so much dye and alcohol, but eventually the coverage did seem to improve. . .

I'm wondering if only dampening the leather with the water-- rather than entirely soaking it -- is what caused/causes the splotching. . .? I concluded that it would have been better to pre-dye the leather (getting deeper penetration from the start) and mold it using the moisture from the dye, or to completely re-saturate it in water when I had wanted to shape it again.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear others' experiences and advice on how this can be avoided.

Micah

Edited January 31, 2010 by Leather Bum

[JeffGC]

I'm telling you. Try the Bick's and dye mix. The dye goes on evenly and the Bick's resists water. I have a coaster that I made awhile back that I put a glass of water on and it left a wet ring on the coaster overnight. It didn't soak in and didn't leave a ring so I would think that you could dunk your holster to mould and SHOULDN'T have a problem with blotching.

pete

Pete-Roughly, what proportions of dye to Bicks 4? I know a lot depends on the desired shade.

[BigRiverLeather]

A custom holster maker told me about a trick I am going to try. We were talking about the challenge of getting an even coat with brown. He said put a very thin, light coat of Neatsfoot oil on it just before you dye and it will help pull the dye in more evenly.

I've not tried this out yet but hope to this weekend. If you try it and get some results, good or bad, let me know.

[pete]

Chocolate is my favorite color- so I fill a little nestles chocolate bottle like the kind that you out into a school lunchbox, with Bick's #4 almost to the top, and pour in(for me) about 3 tsp of dye. If you have one of those Nyquil or cough medicine cups it's about 3/4 full. Experiment and find a shade that you like.

Kevin Hopkins ttold me about it and said that he was experimenting as to how much to use. I got the impression that bick's wouldn't mix with it if you used too much but I haven't found that to be the case.

I rarely use antique anymore. I out on a coat or two of Bee Natural RTC as a resist and then the Bick's. You don't have to rub it off afterwards, use as much as you like (a little goes a long way) and it leaves the piece smooth and protected like a coat of shoe polish. Plus the Bick's really gets into the tooling because it's so liquid-y.

[Bronson]

A custom holster maker told me about a trick I am going to try. We were talking about the challenge of getting an even coat with brown. He said put a very thin, light coat of Neatsfoot oil on it just before you dye and it will help pull the dye in more evenly.

I've not tried this out yet but hope to this weekend. If you try it and get some results, good or bad, let me know.

I tried it on some scrap and it looked good. I didn't get any pics and I've long since thrown it away. I've also read of dying while the leather is still slightly damp with water.

Bronson

[JeffGC]

A few days ago, I dip dyed a holster (J-Frame) in Fiebing's Medium Brown, thinned 50% with denatured alcohol. The leather was Wickett & Craig and it had been plated. The holster was sewn and formed. The leather was cleaned with oxalic acid, wiped with a damp sponge and then cleaned with Fiebing's #12 Deglazer. Then it was submerged for 30 seconds in the dye and hung on a rod to dry. The results were interesting. Any area that had received any pressure was lighter. This included areas of hard forming to the weapon and even on the reverse side of the leather, in the area of the needle plate (Tippmann Boss sewing machine). Areas that did not receive pressure during the manufacturing process accepted the dye evenly. This really got me to thinking, asking myself the question of how the big holster makers produce holsters with such even dye application. This morning, I spoke with the technical people at Wickett & Craig and Fiebing's. I also spoke with a very knowledgeable contact at Tippmann. I learned a few interesting things.

1. Many of the big holster makers purchase vat dyed leather from Wicket & Craig. The dye goes completely through the leather, not even requiring dye on the edges.
2. Everyone agreed that spraying the dye before doing anything to the leather would result in a more even absorption of the dye.

Last week, I did spray dye onto a holster (LCP) using a Paasche AUTF trim gun. The leather had been basket stamped but, otherwise, no compression from forming. The dye laydown was smooth and even.

I reached a couple of conclusions:

1. Dip dying will work on very dark colors; i.e., dark brown and black.
2. If you want even, light colors, spray it.

A few other points worth comments:

• I did experiment with the Bick 4/dye mixture on a knife sheath. It worked very well but did not harden the leather, which I want.
• After dying, I finish with Fiebing's Bag Kote and then Renaissance Wax.

Jeff

Edited February 19, 2010 by JeffGC

[JeffGC]

Yesterday, I removed the top finish (Bag Kote) with Deglazer so that I could redye the holster. I dip dyed in the same solution (see previous post) but extended the time to about two minutes. When the holster dried, I noticed the paths of the machine presser foot accepted dye differently, being slightly darker. I applied a number of coats of full strength dark brown, eventually resulting in a even, but dark, dye job.

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Jeff

[Lobo]

Working with the brown dyes has caused me more than a few incidents of grief.

I believe that immersion dying is needed so that minor surface abrasions won't expose the underlying fibers. I also use neatsfoot oil on all finished products, which dramatically darkens just about any dye shade I have tried.

I still use immersion dying following the forming process. Using Fiebing's spirit-based dyes diluted with isopropyl alchohol, I dip each piece very briefly (about 5 seconds), then place it onto a drying rack. Depending on temperatures in the shop, the alcohol has evaporated off and the dye has set to a point where the piece can be handled within 20 to 45 minutes. Any signs of uneven dye penetration are readily visible, and a second very brief dip (or quick swabbing with dye solution) can be done easily.

Making sets of items can be a real challenge. A holster of 8-oz. veg-tan from one hide, a pouch of 6-oz. veg-tan from another hide, and a belt of 9-10 oz. veg-tan from a third hide, all of these will respond a little differently to the dye solution, so a little time and attention is needed. I usually do all of my dying at one time, frequently over a couple of hours during an evening, and I take a 6-pack of beer into the shop to entertain myself while drying periods are completed.

Then, after a day or so, I do my oiling. I have learned to go slowly with that, using a paintbrush to apply the oil moderately and buffing with a towel. This is especially so on sets (as described above).

I very much like the highlights provided by this method, finding the result much more natural looking than any even coating and resulting plastic-like effect.

It has been a period of trial and error for me, learning to do controlled applications of the browns and achieve consistent results. There is nothing wrong with pre-dying your cut pieces prior to assembly, sewing, forming, etc, and I am now experimenting with that method for a planned new color (more in the russet/saddle tan range, which has proven very difficult to reproduce with my current methods for black and cordovan brown).

I expect to find a few more challenges in this business any time now.

[JeffGC]

Working with the brown dyes has caused me more than a few incidents of grief.

I believe that immersion dying is needed so that minor surface abrasions won't expose the underlying fibers. I also use neatsfoot oil on all finished products, which dramatically darkens just about any dye shade I have tried.

I still use immersion dying following the forming process. Using Fiebing's spirit-based dyes diluted with isopropyl alchohol, I dip each piece very briefly (about 5 seconds), then place it onto a drying rack. Depending on temperatures in the shop, the alcohol has evaporated off and the dye has set to a point where the piece can be handled within 20 to 45 minutes. Any signs of uneven dye penetration are readily visible, and a second very brief dip (or quick swabbing with dye solution) can be done easily.

Making sets of items can be a real challenge. A holster of 8-oz. veg-tan from one hide, a pouch of 6-oz. veg-tan from another hide, and a belt of 9-10 oz. veg-tan from a third hide, all of these will respond a little differently to the dye solution, so a little time and attention is needed. I usually do all of my dying at one time, frequently over a couple of hours during an evening, and I take a 6-pack of beer into the shop to entertain myself while drying periods are completed.

Then, after a day or so, I do my oiling. I have learned to go slowly with that, using a paintbrush to apply the oil moderately and buffing with a towel. This is especially so on sets (as described above).

I very much like the highlights provided by this method, finding the result much more natural looking than any even coating and resulting plastic-like effect.

It has been a period of trial and error for me, learning to do controlled applications of the browns and achieve consistent results. There is nothing wrong with pre-dying your cut pieces prior to assembly, sewing, forming, etc, and I am now experimenting with that method for a planned new color (more in the russet/saddle tan range, which has proven very difficult to reproduce with my current methods for black and cordovan brown).

I expect to find a few more challenges in this business any time now.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your process.

Jeff

[Rhome]

Hi, Browns can be a problem. For me I use Angelus dyes, I believe it is the color Spice for my browns. I had a conversation with the late great Lou Alessi and asked him how he gets such a beautiful even brown on his holsters. he told me that 1st he simply dips the leather in the dye. 2nd he sews the holster and forms it. 3rd he will re-dip the holster if needed. So far that simple method has worked out great for me. And I only do it that way with the brown colors. Every other color I just dip dye the holster when I'm done forming and drying it. I hope this helps.

Best,

Rhome

DGL

[mattsh]

I have to agree with Rhome. In years past Lou was a great tutor and he told me the same thing. He always did the dye before forming and did it by dipping.

Since I have not purchased enough dye to do dipping I simply spray brown, which my current project is the first one I have actually done with the intent of using brown and spraying has worked wonderfully. In the past I have always done black simply because I could not get brown to do what I wanted.