Need Some To Recoment A Sewing Machine To A Beginner Saddle Maker.

[OWP Saddery]

Im just a beginner saddle maker, and i need some help decinding which Machine to start with, the tippmenn or the cobra. Let me know if you have any pros or cons of each. Thanks.

[Luke Hatley]

IF YOU GOT IT SPEND IT....... i bought my boss machine and used it for 12 years,

before i could afford my Adler.

[OWP Saddery]

THanks for the help, but do you have anything to say about the cobra sewing machine.

[Steve Brewer]

THanks for the help, but do you have anything to say about the cobra sewing machine.

I would save my money and buy a needle and awl machine.The Cobra is OK but a Cambell will last you a lifetime and sew about any thing on a saddle.

Steve

[TwinOaks]

Tippmann BOSS (There's also the Aerostitch) vs. one of the Cobra machines:

The boss is lighter and can be moved more easily. It's manual, so it runs without electricity which could come in handy depending on your location. The downside is it's MANUAL, which means you need to guide with one hand, or train a monkey. It's about a $500 less, and $500 is a lot of leather, or some leather and a tree or two. You'll need to make a stand for it, and that's infinitely adjustable in height so long as you make it from lumber and have a saw handy....I saw one pic on here where it was built on a stand like a stitching horse. Downside is that to 'adjust' it, you might need to move it....but it's lightweight!

Cobra machines are specially built machines based on commercial/industrial machines. Steve is one of THE sources to find out anything about most machines, and a great guy to talk to. They are relatively large and heavy, and should have a (mostly) dedicated space. You won't enjoy moving it around a lot, and most likely won't toss it in the bed of the truck and carry up to the hunting camp. The only Cobra in the same size bracket as the Boss is the class 3 machine. I think it has a 9 inch throat (vs. the 6 inch throat on the Boss). Everything else has more throat under it, which could come in handy when you realize you need another line of stitches in the middle of a large piece of leather. Since it's a powered machine, it frees up your second hand to hold material and guide the material (leather or other).

The Boss uses a jump foot feed, in which the needle penetrates and pulls the material, then the foot 'jumps' and holds it. I've also heard of this being called a "square feed" which reportedly maintains the same stitch length even when adding or subtracting layers of leather. The Cobras use a triple or unison feed. They use a 'walking foot' which presses and feeds from the top, feed dogs which feed from the bottom, and a needle feed which penetrates and feeds the leather. The needle feed aspect of this has been described to me as a pendulum motion, and may not maintain stitch length, depending on the thickness of additional layers.

Boss machines come with a drill attachment for winding bobbins, Cobras have one built in so you can make bobbins while you sew.

For actual sewing- Many machines will advertise a range of material thicknesses, but few advertise that you'll actually have to adjust the tensions to make pretty stitches. It doesn't matter what machine it is, until there's a fool proof automatic stitch tension checker, you'll need to test a scrap or two to get the tension right for the thickness you're sewing.

Both feature speed adjustments- With the powered models, you turn a dial. With the manual models, you get aspercreme or icy-hot. For long continuous runs (Belts) the powered models win.

There's more learning curve with the powered machines, but the pay off is in production times.

Also, there's an issue that I've seen on here a few times- Tippmann's decision to go to a aluminum frame instead of iron. I've read quite a few threads on broken rack gears, cracked frames, etc., and a bit of unhappiness about the lighter frame. I can't think of any threads about a broken Cobra machine.......

There it is in a nut shell, and this should not be the only thread you read about it. Click over to the sewing forum and do some reading there too. Sit down and put pen to paper and write out a list of what you need the machine to do, then compare that to the machine's ability. For example: Need to make double layer gun belts in 20 min. Cobra? Yes Tippmann? My arm aches thinking of it. Example 2: Need to go out to Old Man Clay's farm and do some quick repairs on a few of his working saddles. Tippmann? sure, put it in the truck. Cobra? Call a chiropractor....quick!

I'm sure some more folks will chime in, so stay tuned.

[jbird]

not sure about the needle and awl machine Steve would now about that, but I do know that my cobra is to me the best thing since water.

it works like a champ and is a beauty.

my two cents.

Josh

PS Steve how doing buddy!

[Steve Brewer]

not sure about the needle and awl machine Steve would now about that, but I do know that my cobra is to me the best thing since water.

it works like a champ and is a beauty.

my two cents.

Josh

PS Steve how doing buddy!

Josh,The Cambell has been a machine of choice for many saddle makers.They were a lease machine and can now be purchased.I would call Cambell Bosworth and price one that has been rebuilt.I think that the Cobra would be a good first machine,and Steve gives great customer support.I have a Artisan 4000 toro that I don't like very well and the support sucks.I have switched back to my needle and awl machine for all my saddle work.I still use the Artisan for some strap work.

[Randy Cornelius]

I bought a Boss when I first started out and man was that a mistake, if you like to tinker then you will love a boss. It is a constant battle to keep it adjusted. I was neve so glad to see something go a when I sold my Boss. Do your self a favor and buy one of the machines listed above. I have an Artisen that I bought several years ago when Steve was still with them, I have no regrets. I have also got a flatbed machine I bought from Steves new company. I have no regrets with either machine. I love both of them. RC

[jwwright]

I have no experience with the Boss machines.............but, I do have an Artisan machine that I purchased a couple of years ago, from Steve before he started his new company. The Artisan machine has been reliable. My experience with Steve was great, so I am sure that it is no different now with the Cobra machines. JW

[OWP Saddery]

How do i find out about the cambell machine? Thanks for the help.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

I'd agree with Steve about the needle and awl machine. The price of a reconditioned machine from Campbell is going to shock you, but if you are serious about saddlemaking and want the nicest stitch that can be made, that would come from a needle and awl machine. If you can't afford one from Campbell-Randall, keep your eyes out for a used Campbell, Randall, or Landis machine... it'll still cost you a fair amount more than a new Boss, but if your intent is to make top notch saddles, it'll show in your final results.

Darcy

[jbird]

JW are you using a campbell for your saddles?

Josh

I am also wondering what mr Andy Knight is using.

[Steve Brewer]

How do i find out about the cambell machine? Thanks for the help.

www.campbell-bosworth.com

[RMB Custom Leather]

I own both machines. I bought the first Cobra 3 shipped right when Steve started last year; I have been well pleased with the machine and customer service. I bought a used Tippman Boss at a steal manly for a back up and show machine and it's pretty good but it really made me feel good that I spent the little extra for an automatic machine. For the cost I would without a doubt get a Cobra.

[AndyKnight]

JW are you using a campbell for your saddles?

Josh

I am also wondering what mr Andy Knight is using.

I use a Nakajima.. 440. I like my reverse etc. ( Japanese) bought it new in 1988. I prefer modern although i will concede that the old hook and awl machines make a nice stitch. Been there done that got a mechanics ticket to show for it.

The chinese machines that I have tried can.t be compared to one like mine but maybe thay have improved the last few years.

Edited March 24, 2010 by AndyKnight

[Kevinjohnson]

I agree w/ Steve and Darc that there is nothing like the stitch that a needle and awl machine makes. I used an Adler 205-370 for nearly 10 yrs. before buying a Campbell. While the Adler is more versitile, for saddle work, a Campbell/Randall or Landis 3 or 16 is the way to go. Most people never realize how much better a needle and awl stitch looks until you've compared the two side by side. An awl machine can make 346 thread look like 277 just because it makes such a tight, neat stitch. Don't get me wrong, I'll never get rid of my Adler but I'll never be without a needle and awl machine for saddle work. If a person is patient, good, used awl machines can be found for close to the price of a better knock-off. I know of where there is a nice Landis 3 for $3500 and a Randall for a little more. I would be more than happy to pass on the contact info.

[jwwright]

Josh.............my Artisan is my only machine currently..........other than an old Singer I picked up to use for building leggins, but I have not taken the time to get that one in usable shape just yet. The needle /awl machines do make the best looking stitch, in my opinion...........I hope to get a Campbell or Landis 3 sometime in the near future, but I will keep the Artisan machine always for the sake of versatility and reliability. JW

[Kate]

Dang, but that is a good lookin' grey horse in your avatar, JW.

I got a Cobra class 3 from Steve, and am VERY!!!! happy with it. It replaced a Landis #1 that is still in the shop - and once in a while if I have something really heavy I'll turn up the old Landis, just so I don't have to change out threads and needles etc on the Cobra.

There is no contest, though - the Cobra does everything I throw at it, stitch quality is really good for a threaded needle machine, and it's dead easy to operate. Customer service is SUPERB from Steve, which of itself is worth the price of admission. If the OP is new to heavy stitchers, I'd advise going with a Cobra.

A needle and awl machine takes a person who understands the machine to keep them happy - there's a learning curve to them, as with most things worth learning.

If I could afford one, I'd have one though!

Kate

[OWP Saddery]

Thanks to every one fot the help, i just about have my mind made up.