Is Veg Tan Leather Good For The Environment?

[bdt46]

Everyone seems to want to post their opinion on this thread, so I'm going to post mine! I'm sure I'll catch a lot of guff about it, but I have big shoulders, so take your best shot! Raised in Oklahoma, I have been involved in the cattle business and the leather business for a lot of years. There has to be a market for beef or there would be no reason to raise them. There are an untold number of jobs in this country that are directly or indirectly involved in the cattle industry. That is from producer to buyer to feedlot to slaughter to market to consumer and many other jobs that branch of from each of those. What about grocers and butchers and fertilizer and of course tanners! All that I can say to you people who worry about the treatment of animals and the byproducts of same is, if you are so concerned, then don't buy whatever the product or byproduct is that you are so concerned about! Especially the chrome tanned leather. Don't buy leather shoes, belts, purses, wallets or whatever, as most contain chrome tanned leather somewhere in their construction. As for me, I'll continue to use whatever I need to use to give my customers the best product that money can buy. I guess if all you people refuse to use chrome tan leather, it will just give some of us a broader market. I'm going to keep eating a steak or roast or whatever, and from the energy it give me, I'll continue to put a padded seat in my custom saddles when necessary.

[EricDobson]

One thing I've found is this organic leather website. I don't know how active this endeavor is but they talk about the issues and apparently are trying to put a system in place that is more accountable. As they point out, the major problem is that right now there is no possibility on a larger scale to track specific hides from organic, humane producer to quality tannery to delivery. I'd certainly like to see more progress made in this area.

Realistically, I think the best thing I could do is become successful using what's currently available, then use whatever influence I develop to make some changes. It'd be a lot easier to influence the building of a new system if I were using a few hundred hides per year.

We'll see.

[terrymac]

I've asked the question before of what is Eco Friendly leather, and what is its benefit to anyone, and now I am going to ask what in the world is the difference in a hide from an "organic" steer to an "non-organic" steer. I really get a chuckle when people start touting the benefits of organic whatever. It seems that all of these concerned people seem to forget that a couple of years ago when some people died from eating tainted fresh spinach, it was organic spinach. Seems like an organic fertilizer was applied to the spinach that happened to come from a place that had an outbreak of coccidosis that ended up in the organic manure that was applied to the spinach. Sorry gang, I will stick with a nitrogen pellet that has no chance of giving some damn disease that is going to kill me. These same peolple also forget hemlock is a natural and organic poison that will kill you just as dead as a commercially produced one. At some point in time, a sense of reasonableness has got to enter the equation. Go in the grocery store and you will see milk that is from dairies that have sworn from using BST to increase milk production. Only problem is, BST is a naturally occuring hormone that is found in every milk cow in the country, and that much of the increased natural milk production has been the result of selective breeding naturally increasing the amount of BST a cow can produce on its own. Didn't seem to bother anyone as long as the cow was producing it, but when someone figured out how to increase it with a shot, all hell broke loose. Sorry guys, I just tired of all the hypocrisy that is out there today. Still can't figure out what would be the difference in hides. Maybe someone more enlightened that me can shed some light. bdt 46, I am with you.

Edited October 1, 2010 by terrymac

[TexasJack]

I've been an environmental professional for over 30 years. If anyone is selling you a product as "eco-friendly", you can just as easily substitute the term, "B.S.".

Yes, some chromium compounds are toxic. Look at a bottle of multivitamins sometime. "Chromium" is listed!! Yeah. Some chromium compounds are not toxic.

Check your pocket; most nickel is very toxic. (In fact, the name comes from "Old Nick", a name for the Devil.) That doesn't mean that having a nickel in your pocket or eating with stainless steel (which contains nickel and chromium) will kill you.

If the chemical used to make something has ONE ingredient that is from nature, it can be marketed as being 'eco'. For example, take soybean oil, react it with ethylene oxide, then with ammonia, then with sodium bisulfite, and you can make an 'eco' detergent. Is the final molecule like one in nature? No. But with the current generation having schools and TV pounding them with pop science, such a product will be highly marketable. As W.C. Fields would say, "There's a sucker born every minute."

I was glad to see someone point out that leather crafters are RECYCLERS! That is exactly true.

Oh, by the way, they don't cut down forests to get tannins. They are byproducts (and usually unwanted byproducts) of pulp and paper mills. Even if the trees are harvested, NEW TREES can grow where the old ones were located! Again, REAL recycling. I spent a few years living in a state with mandatory recycling. We paid extra to have to get plastic jugs picked up. But none of my neighbors ever asked what happened to those jugs. I asked. Since there was no demand for the plastic, and since the state refused to burn them for fuel value, the jugs were piled up and then taken to the landfill and buried. With all the other trash. "Recycling Theater".

Almost any chemical process can be done without harming the environment. In Europe, Canada, Australia, and the USA, that's pretty much mandatory. Other countries? I don't think I have to spell out the answer. Even with controls in place, some companies try to take shortcuts (e.g., BP) and make everyone look bad.

Life is far too short to worry about how happy the cow was before her pelt was tanned.

[Hedy]

Is this a conversation or an argument?

[terrymac]

It is called a "Reality Check"

[8thsinner]

I'd say its a topic which could get heated is all.

I have seen no argumentative behavior, just strong opinions.

The whole "organic" thing with the breeding of cows is say is probably 75% BS however, cows that are simply well treated, feed with natural products etc will have better quality hides how could they not.

The "organic" hype over the last few years is all about money these days and restrictions have been put on the growth to ensure you stick to certain rules to be able to advertise as organic. I think those people matter less than the people who care about their cows and do look after them properly. Most likely no one even knows the difference cause it's all sold through the same people or ends up in the same tannery.

My partners, sisters ex-husband for example is a dairy farmer, he has independently been judged to have the best milk in the country. He does love his cows, to the point where he goes through a very disciplined routine, feeds them well etc. However he sells to a company like many others who just take the milk and sell it through a company name, I don't know the company name but they buy from hundreds of farmers around the country so how would the customer know the difference between any of them?

I am glad to know that veg tanning is done through recycling. It matters to me that my products damage the environment as little as possible, but like someone else said, I will use the best I can find to give my customer the best he can get. It just so happens that veg tanning makes better leather, it's an easy choice.

[mendedbowl]

I am increasingly concerned about this subject, personally. It's tough to figure out where our leather comes from because tanneries sell globally. Does your leather come from under-regulated Third World tanneries (such as India), where cows are starved/dehydrated, have pepper rubbed in their eyes to keep them awake, have their tails broken to keep them alert, are allowed to stand for days or weeks with broken legs or worse, get moved with forklifts when they are too weak to walk, get stacked on top of one another in pens while still alive but too weak to move, get killed with dull knives, get skinned while still alive, et cet? Or China (many of same, plus blatant skinning of live animals, including for fur)? There are eye-witness/hidden-camera videos of these practices. I have seen them and been sick for weeks.

Then what about those tannery workers become ill because they are not given adequate protection from long-term exposure (check out the chromium VI risks below)? What about the pollution that results to the water table? These are difficult issues to ponder. Personally, I'm working to forge collaborations with local homesteaders to see if I can get brain-tanned hides from their animal harvests that would otherwise be left to return to the eco-system. Every now and then, our local Native-owned leather shop has a smoked moose hide or such.

I have promised myself I won't randomly buy leather without attempting to acquire something more humane first. There are suppliers who are doing it on the up-and-up, such as http://www.braintan.com/ (Traditional Tanners). You can even buy a wet hide and do the tan yourself. Buckskin, rawhide, deerhide, furs (including buffalo).

Just a look at the chromium science will give an indication:

Chromium(VI) is a danger to human health, mainly for people who work in the steel and textile industry. People who smoke tobacco also have a higher chance of exposure to chromium.

Chromium(VI) is known to cause various health effects. When it is a compound in leather products, it can cause allergic reactions, such as skin rash. After breathing it in chromium(VI) can cause nose irritations and nosebleeds.

Other health problems that are caused by chromium(VI) are:

- Skin rashes

- Upset stomachs and ulcers

- Respiratory problems

- Weakened immune systems

- Kidney and liver damage

- Alteration of genetic material

- Lung cancer

- Death

The health hazards associated with exposure to chromium are dependent on its oxidation state. The metal form (chromium as it exists in this product) is of low toxicity. The hexavalent form is toxic. Adverse effects of the hexavalent form on the skin may include ulcerations, dermatitis, and allergic skin reactions. Inhalation of hexavalent chromium compounds can result in ulceration and perforation of the mucous membranes of the nasal septum, irritation of the pharynx and larynx, asthmatic bronchitis, bronchospasms and edema. Respiratory symptoms may include coughing and wheezing, shortness of breath, and nasal itch.

can you please give links to videos you mentioned and credible documentation (not the PETA website) to support your statements about the treatment of cattle in India? those practices (starvation and dehydration) are not beneficial for producing better meat for the market or better hides for the tannery, so it's hard to believe that kind of behavior is widespread. What would be the motivation for that type of treatment? After all, cattle are venerated by Hindus in India, and it's illegal to slaughter them in almost all of the states of the Indian union.

Also can you please tell how many cases have been documented of tannery workers becoming ill from long term exposure at work?

Not trying to argue. Just asking for some facts, and some rational thinking.

ken

[bdt46]

As I said in an earlier post, that like 8thsinners family, I was for many years in the cattle and leather business. I am still a fulltime saddle maker. All the years I owned cattle, they were a top priority in being taken well care of. For most people the cows are like a member of their family. Their health and welfare is many times put above the owners! Agreed, some people don't take care of their animals, and they usually don't last long in the business. I never worried about using leather from cows that were not taken care of because those hides are usually culled out for whatever reason. The Lowest grade of hides, TANNERY RUN, will show lots of blemises such as tick holes, scars, brands etc. I never use this grade of hide anyway. I don't thinkthat I'm being argumentative, I am just trying to be fair in my opinion! I would also like to see some of the documentation on the earlier mentioned abuses. Not the PETA propaganda, but any real documentation! Hope I don't offend anyone, just expressing my opinion!

[imstephenjones]

I see this is a very old post, but I'd love to let in on some valuable information that I believe was misconstrued in this feed.

The question was: Is veg tan good for the environment?

Actually, to my dismay, it is not. But no method of tanning leather is. When you look at what the hide goes through (soaking, fleshing, un-hairing and liming, bating, pickling, splitting, shaving, neutralizing, retaining, drum dying, fat liquoring, etc.) you see that there are a lot of steps and a lot of chemicals used to complete each step.

These chemicals are processed through water treatment facilities with chlorine and other harmful chemicals that are let out into a very tender eco-system. They strip the protectant layers from fish, plants, and even cause mutations in aquatic. It's pretty crazy when you get down to the whole process.

The biggest thing I want to note is that chrome tanning is not worse than vegetable tanning. It is actually better for the environment as a whole. For the 55,000 tons of Mimosa tannins used in harvested annually it takes 33,000,000 gallons of water to process and 145 acres of land. This is from the Mimosa, mind you, the least harvested for it's tannins.

To harvest Chromium III (not to be confused with Chromium VI - A known carcinogen and very dangerous material that has been banned for any type of use) it takes very little resource. NOTE: Carcinogen causes caner.

There is also a difference in the consumption levels of each. Tannins come from very few species of trees. The tannins are actually in the trees to protect it from various insects within their ecosystem by producing a nasty taste. Being that there are very few species of trees usable for this type of tannin for the tanning process we are over-consuming a resource that will not last us another few centuries at the rate we are currently going. On the other hand Chromium III (again, not harmful to humans, wildlife or the environment) has a reserve to last us indefinitely. Removing a species of trees that make up a complex eco-system is harmful. Very, very harmful.

There was an article posted in the New York Times some years ago that talked about a ship that was found at the bottom of the sea. This ship took sale in 1786 and was carrying vegetable tanned leather and hemp. When the divers found the ship all they found was the bell and vegetable tanned leather. There were also veg tanned sandals found buried from the Tutankhamen, which were over 3,000 years old. Chrome tanned pieces are known to biodegrade back into the earth providing nutrients to the ecosystem. Veg tan, on the other hand, is very resilient and useless after it's useful lifespan.

I used to be an advocate for veg-tanned leathers because of the misleading hype about it. Now I am more interested in chromium tanned leather, as it serves as a less harmful alternative for the overall eco-system we call home and can be improved upon to create a healthier system overall.

I hope this cleared up some of the muddy waters!