Slaughter Free Leather Not Selling As Expected

[Lasse C]

Lasse, I can assure you that all healthy milking cows in Sweden are slaughtered for meat production when their career as milk producers is over . You´ll know when you chew a chunk of "leathery" beef !

/ knut

So that´s where all the low-priced "grytbitar" comes from!

Anyway, it also proves my point: Cows past their productive age are not left tottering around until they just drop dead from "natural causes".

Lasse C

[StevenSiegel]

Do I qualifiy for a chunk of free leather to test in my work? I am not too fussy since it would be mostly cut in strips and sewed up for light harness. It would not have to be slaughter free, anything suitable for pleasure driving pony harness would do. Flaws and brands would be okay.

Here is a picture of the slaughter free side being sent to the UK. It is very hard to show the drag marks photographically. This particular hide has fewer defects than average.

Steve

[rdb]

Thanks for the picture Steve. You need a better camera...lol. If that scratch is all there is to the defects, it sounds like a price bargain...

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Driving home the other week I saw a deceased bovine out in the pasture being loaded up into the truck . They had it rigged up around the feet, and were hoisting it into the back. Curious why they drag them, when boom lifts, etc are available.

[dirtclod]

The reason could be as simple as their not able to be backed to, every body may have different set up on their truck some have a longer boom on the hoist, a bigger wench, more cable, lazy driver, down in a sinkhole or gully, lift gates. Years ago i worked in a butcher shop. the truck they had a lift gate and boom with a wench and they had dead cows in it sometimes. I talked the driver a couple of times what they did with everthing, he said they rendered most of the animal down for all types of things that were and are used in a types of everyday things. Just like limestone or marble i can't remember which but it's crushed super fine and put on the outside of chewing gum to keep it from sticking togeather But very little if any part of the animal goes to waste. It could be a 100 different reasons that they need to drag it to get to and in the truck.

Edited December 24, 2010 by dirtclod

[roo4u]

here in nebraska when they lose cows they ranchhands drag them out by the main road and leave them for the carcass truck to pick up on their way by.

[WyomingSlick]

I just wanted to say thanks for the entertainment, folks. I got quite a few chuckes out of this thread. I do want to say I support the idea of trying to expand "our" market into any area where it might fit. Nothing wrong with that. Where would the cowboy boot makers be if their market was actually limited to those who put their feet into stirrups? Same for Vegans; who cares what they think, if, we can sell them a leather product. Kinda makes it a win-win situation. And, of course, there are plenty of things we can make out of leather that has "drag marks" on it. Good luck Mr Siegel and hang in there.

[Scary Leatherworks]

Since this thread is still going I'll add my 2 cents. I think this is a fine idea. First it is INEXPENSIVE, which is good for most of us "hobbyist" leatherworkers. I tend to give a lot of my stuff to friends and family or charge enough to cover the cost of materials because I enjoy doing it, so if I can buy a hide cheaper that is still usable then I'm happy.

Second, if you go to Tandy's site you can see that they are marketing to this niche somewhat also. they have eco-leather marketed from S America not raised in the rain forest and tanned in an environmentally friendly tannery. A bit different marketing plan but still trying to get the "eco-friendly" market.

Third, I would personally use these for a lot of things because I like to keep the drag marks, brands, and wire burns in my work because leather has character and I like the flaws.

And Last, Steve, I have been to your site 3 times and cannot find these hides. Am I Blind?

Scott

[whinewine]

And Last, Steve, I have been to your site 3 times and cannot find these hides. Am I Blind?

Scott

Scott:

you've got to sign up for the 'Friday Special'- that's where they're listed.

Also, click on his banner ad: 'End of the year clearance sale' at the top of the page.

russ

Edited December 31, 2010 by whinewine

[Johnny B]

So how does one determine that the hide they purchase was in fact from a cow that had died of natural causes? ROFL

So is this forum turning into a PITA hangout?

[jimsaddler]

Sorry to put a damper on this Leather. But from experience a Non Slaughtered Beast usually hasn't been bled at death. This causes enzyme decay to set in quickly. Making the Hide "Dead Leather" from the Tanners point of view. In the 60's when Slaughtered Hides were bringing Au$7-12. a Dead hide brought 50cents if you could sell it. (US$1.00 was equivelent of 48cents Aust then). Good Bridle sides sold for Au$9.50-12.90.

One Tanner actually used these cheap hides and tried to palm them off on the Saddlers by filling them with a a smelly component. I bought 14 sides at $4.50 per side! I still had most of them when Fire Burned my Shop 5 yrs later as the stuff was Junk as it had no strength was hard to cut or skive as the many cuts I recieved when trying to cut out or skive it. Good Tack was out of the Question. I made a few Tap washers and work Belts out of one side and lost Customers as it fell to pieces. The Tanner later gave me a credit to keep my trade and appologised, then told me it was what he had learned from his Indian Adviser as that was the only source of Hides he was used to using as it was illegal to Slaughter Cows in India, so the untouchable Caste picked the Sacred Cows when they died as a source of Leather (and whatever??) I don't think that anything has changed in recent years as a Dead Cow is a Dead Cow and decay sets in quickly if the Blood is not removed.

Convictions or Motivation does not compensate for a Bad or inferior Product which DEAD Hides Produce.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

People who hold strong convictions about something are often very motivated to put their money where their mouth is and will pay extra for products that fit into those convictions. You can see this with organic food, a large proportion of which is purchased by more affluent moms with small children. Working with leather of this kind would be a niche market for sure, but one that could be very profitable for those motivated to get into it. Those of us who live a more rural lifestyle don't have access to that market since our community/culture is anything but vegan, but for those working in the larger centers that are more likely to have friends/family/connections to the vegan world, and I can see a small niche market for this leather. But figuring out what to make and how to sell it would be a big job.

[Russ]

There are a lot of PITA's here, but I'm not sure they are all members of PETA

So how does one determine that the hide they purchase was in fact from a cow that had died of natural causes? ROFL

So is this forum turning into a PITA hangout?

[UKRay]

Jim, as you know, I have a huge amount of respect for your knowledge and I accept that your early experience of 'dead leather' was negative but I feel it might be best to see if this is actually the exact same stuff before condemning it publicly...

Right now, as far as I can see, this is simply your opinion (albeit based on your personal experience of someone else's leather made 50 years ago) rather than hard evidence that anyone is currently selling a 'Bad or inferior' product.

In fact, unless you are absolutely sure of the scientific processes used to make this leather (technology has moved on even in the leather industry) and/or have personal experience of using this particular product over a period of time then, IMHO, it would be unfair to label these hides in any way.

Ray

[Lurker]

I think the problem is that the market that the vendor is selling to is not the same market as the people buying the finished products. I'm going to generalize here so I apologize ahead of time for those who don't quite fit this explanation (even I don't fit it totally, but anyhow... )

A lot of the leatherworkers in North America are old cowboys and people from ranching backgrounds. People who have heard more than a few whiny rants on leather and beef and consider those rants extremely offensive and attacks on their livelihoods. Because of a few radical and uninformed "animal lovers" these leatherworkers have a chip on their sides to the entire bunch. "City folk" ya know. Leatherworkers are trying to market ALL leather as humane and environmentally friendly. By having this "second product" out that brings up questions.

That said, I'm going to be working out of an urban area where I bet I could find a few horse(wo)men that'd eat this stuff up. I wouldn't charge any extra for it though...and most certainly wouldn't pay extra for a blemished hide (after all, I'm not a vegan hippie!)

The marked down price certainly looks attractive and tempting though...

[JC Javelle]

This is a very interesting topic. And knowing that the majority of beef in America that goes to slaughter is geared towards the biggest buyer (McDonalds), a type of quality comes to mind. There are no ethics in the slaughter industry. As most cows in America raised for meat consumption are corn fed, and corn kills cows, I would rather ask the question: Which is of better quality, corn fed hides or forage fed hides? There is obviously a difference in the taste of the meat. I would assume that everything, to an extent, would be different. Now, I don't know if the hides from cows raised specifically for meat consumption are used in the leather industry or not. But if there is a known difference between the two, I would find that more interesting as a buyer of leather, than whether or not the cow died of old age, accident, or slaughter. The animal ends up in a similar place regardless of how it died. How it was raised is far more interesting to me than how it died.

Just my take on things.

Edited January 7, 2011 by JC Javelle

[bruce johnson]

JC,

I sure respect other opinions, but have a few observations here. As you will read, I have some biases. First off, McDonalds may be a big beef buyer, but percentage wise very few cattle are specifically geared entirely to McDonalds. The biggest value in a carcass are the prime cuts - McDonalds are not grinding $10/pound filets and T-bones for $1 double cheeseburgers. They are grinding meat from cull cows and less valuable meat cuts for hamburger. I just have to ask about the statement that corn kills cows. What's the basis of that? I have decent enough family background in cattle feeding, meat packing and processing, and just enough nutrtional courses to be dangerous, I just don't see the correlation. Moldy corn can do it, cattle not acclimated to a "hot ration" can have problems, but corn as a rule does not kill cattle offhand. To answer one of your questions - yes, the hides from the cattle fed for slaughter are used in the leather industry. Some are fed cattle and some are older cull dairy and beef cattle. That is pretty much the source of most all the hides except for the identified slaughter free hides sold by Steve Siegel. Even the slaughter free hides may have come from a pasture or a feedlot. As far as the quality difference between the forage fed cattle vs. feedlot cattle - hard to say because anymore very few cattle are finished on forage and their hides specifically separated and tanned to be sold as grass cattle hides. It would be interesting, some rawhiders have definite opinions, but the tanned hides are just for the most part fed cattle. Probably the biggest difference in decreasing hide quality and size has to do with "progress" in the cattle business. Hides are smaller, and the quality is not what the older guys tell us it used to be. These cattle have been bred up to gain faster, more efficiently, and result in a more consistant product at a younger age than cattle in the past. The hides are still a by-product, not the primary goal.

My great-grandfather used to buy a trainload of long yearling and two year old feeder cattle to put into the feedlot. He fed them and they went on the train to Chicago. He used to feed a pen of "steamers" for the fun of it - big overdone cattle whose steak would have an inch or more of fat left on it and spill over the plate. They were called steamers because they were served to the wealthy on steamships. You aren't going to find many cattle like that anymore. Think how big those hides were.

We've all seen the videos on slaughterhouse abuses. They happen, but aren't widespread in the industry. There has been a lot of improvements in livestock handling, and slaughter procedures in the last century and some would argue that improvements have doubled in the last 10 years. I just have to take exception that there are no ethics in the slaughter industry.

Respectfully,

[StevenSiegel]

Hi Jim

This is Steve Siegel.

I am sorry that you had an unpleasant receipt of leather in the 1960's from someone who was trained in India to produce leather.

By the mid 1960's the English had already and were continuing to make a fortune from the "cow" coming out of India. Eventually, the Indian government made export of this leather illegal. Some of the leather was referred to as EI Kips.

I agree with you in some respect in terms of decomposition of the hide, but this is also a function of temperature and other factors. When the hide is tanned, it is very easy to see if the leather is suitalble for the intended use. If the vendor chooses to sell a product unsuitable for the intended use and the buyer accepts delivery of same product, then both the vendor and the buyer must share responsiblity for their mistake.

I know all the "stories" about the cows that died by "accident" in India which were myths.

I am just puzzled why this is such a touchy topic for many as the leather which we had produced already exists. I put a tremedous amount of effort to establish a "chain of custody", source hides which were still suitable for finished leather and present an opportuinty forall leatherworkers to add another "line" for customers who were not otherwise their current accounts AND for the leatherworker to make a GREATER profit for their timei invested than they would otherwise. The intent was to help the leatherworkers who I feel are grossly underpaid for the skill set which they possess. .

My primary intent was to help y'all.

In regard to the cattle industry in the USA, I can truthfully say that I have done 2 things to help this industry: 1) I was personally responsible for having all of the PETA posters which had been at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport (which had been "up" for several years) removed AND 2) throuh the Secetary of Agriculture, directly had former President Clinton change his decision in favor of the cattle industry in regard to a pending BLM chanage. #1 was from speaking up ALOT and #2 was because our business was in Santa Ynez at the time and when I called the Department of Ag as a member of the cattlemen's association, they mixed me up with a guy who lived in town at the same time with the same name as mine who is a movie actor. I don't have any special magic, but I have tried my hardest to do what I thought was correct even if it seemed impossible..

Truthfully, I just feel so discouraged from this thread.

It willl be interesting to see what the fellow in England who received a free side has to say about the leather.

[wildrose]

Steven,

I've been following this thread on and off, and having read your most recent post I feel a need to reply. Any time a new product comes out, there will be positive and negative feedback. Even when we think we are doing something right in "creating" a new offering, it will not always be seen as the "next big thing". I guess my best advice would be to take it as a lesson and keep doing the great work customers say you're known for.

[StevenSiegel]

JC,

I sure respect other opinions, but have a few observations here. As you will read, I have some biases. First off, McDonalds may be a big beef buyer, but percentage wise very few cattle are specifically geared entirely to McDonalds. The biggest value in a carcass are the prime cuts - McDonalds are not grinding $10/pound filets and T-bones for $1 double cheeseburgers. They are grinding meat from cull cows and less valuable meat cuts for hamburger. I just have to ask about the statement that corn kills cows. What's the basis of that? I have decent enough family background in cattle feeding, meat packing and processing, and just enough nutrtional courses to be dangerous, I just don't see the correlation. Moldy corn can do it, cattle not acclimated to a "hot ration" can have problems, but corn as a rule does not kill cattle offhand. To answer one of your questions - yes, the hides from the cattle fed for slaughter are used in the leather industry. Some are fed cattle and some are older cull dairy and beef cattle. That is pretty much the source of most all the hides except for the identified slaughter free hides sold by Steve Siegel. Even the slaughter free hides may have come from a pasture or a feedlot. As far as the quality difference between the forage fed cattle vs. feedlot cattle - hard to say because anymore very few cattle are finished on forage and their hides specifically separated and tanned to be sold as grass cattle hides. It would be interesting, some rawhiders have definite opinions, but the tanned hides are just for the most part fed cattle. Probably the biggest difference in decreasing hide quality and size has to do with "progress" in the cattle business. Hides are smaller, and the quality is not what the older guys tell us it used to be. These cattle have been bred up to gain faster, more efficiently, and result in a more consistant product at a younger age than cattle in the past. The hides are still a by-product, not the primary goal.

My great-grandfather used to buy a trainload of long yearling and two year old feeder cattle to put into the feedlot. He fed them and they went on the train to Chicago. He used to feed a pen of "steamers" for the fun of it - big overdone cattle whose steak would have an inch or more of fat left on it and spill over the plate. They were called steamers because they were served to the wealthy on steamships. You aren't going to find many cattle like that anymore. Think how big those hides were.

We've all seen the videos on slaughterhouse abuses. They happen, but aren't widespread in the industry. There has been a lot of improvements in livestock handling, and slaughter procedures in the last century and some would argue that improvements have doubled in the last 10 years. I just have to take exception that there are no ethics in the slaughter industry.

Respectfully,

Hi Bruce,

I have a question for you regarding hides from your personal and family experience: I have a lot of experience in sorting leather made from hides world wide. Currently, many of the US heavy native steers will have weight run-off in the ribs, but this is not present in the Continental Breeds which come from Canada or the "Contintent". This is the reason that we will only use Continental Breeds in the production of our skiritng. My question is this: Besides feeding practices, do you believe that the "stock" that is currently raised is different than what was raised in earlier days? I would be very interested to know about this and I know that you would provide a thoughtful response.

Best Regards,

Steve

[azrider]

Just thought I would chime in again. I ordered one of these hides, mainly because the price was right and I was curious. I have no idea if it will help me with my sales, but the market might be there. The hide is large, and is actually really nice. I will try to market it as slaughter free leather, but even that doesn't work, this is a nicer piece of leather than some I have ordered in the past, and I can use it. I have to agree that the people who this will be evenutally marketed to are not the ones who would buy it, but it can't hurt to try.

[StevenSiegel]

Steven,

I've been following this thread on and off, and having read your most recent post I feel a need to reply. Any time a new product comes out, there will be positive and negative feedback. Even when we think we are doing something right in "creating" a new offering, it will not always be seen as the "next big thing". I guess my best advice would be to take it as a lesson and keep doing the great work customers say you're known for.

Hi,

Hi,

Thank you for the encouragement.

I don't understand the "rationale" of some of these threads. For someone who did not grow up in the email age, some of these threads just don't make any sense to me. It feels like having a horse depleted of water. You bring it water. The horse not only refuses to drink, but the animal turns on you for having brought it what it needs to stay alive.

Can you help me in responding to some of these threads which close the minds of others to new ideas and "turns the clock backwards instead of forward?"

My primary intent is to help others. My secondary intent is to add value. My third intent is to profit from my work after the first two.

Anyway, I would like to put in a plug for the "Ask Veralane" archives which are on our website. For many years, while Verlane was alive, we employed her to answer any and all questions with no editorial restrictions. And, for those people that are interested in an eclectic of offers of free leather which we have recently developed, bargain pricing on leathers and reproductions from private edition tanning and hide manuals (from my private library), you may want to subscribe to our email specials.

Now, that I am over 60, maybe I can have an "excuse" for being a bit ornery.

Best Regards,

Steve

[bead]

You're a trustworthy partnership.

Maybe we will have chance to cooperation,

[bruce johnson]

Hi Bruce,

I have a question for you regarding hides from your personal and family experience: I have a lot of experience in sorting leather made from hides world wide. Currently, many of the US heavy native steers will have weight run-off in the ribs, but this is not present in the Continental Breeds which come from Canada or the "Contintent". This is the reason that we will only use Continental Breeds in the production of our skiritng. My question is this: Besides feeding practices, do you believe that the "stock" that is currently raised is different than what was raised in earlier days? I would be very interested to know about this and I know that you would provide a thoughtful response.

Best Regards,

Steve

Steve,

I have had a few emails overnight from people wanting to know a little more. Here's a little more background. My great-grandfather fed cattle, grandfather fed cattle. One great-grandfather was a buyer for John Morell. These were back in the days of the big terminal markets. My dad and two uncles were packer buyers, my dad bought hogs, two uncles bought fat cattle. One is still doing it and has since about 1965. I'll be talking to him this weekend and get his take, but I have some of my own thoughts too. I worked in the packing house and got about every crap job a guy could get. My brother didn't, and went on to get a PhD in meat science. My son works at cattle auctions 5 days a week. He sees cull cattle and feeders sell everyday. We are in a dairy area and the beef cattle are cow-calf or wintertime grass cattle/summers on irrigated clover. We aren't in a huge cattle feeding area other than Harris at Coalinga. They are kind of vertically integrated with their own feedlot and slaughter plant, so they are not the usual pattern of most.

My thoughts on the fall off in hide weights I think may be due to a couple of factors. Age of the cattle at slaughter (PC term now is "harvest") is younger. One is the genetic base of the cattle. I can't say that the angus cattle have thinner hides necessarily, but they have created a pretty good promotional program for their beef so black hided English influenced cattle are popular. Cattle feeding areas have shifted south. There are still some feedyards in the northern plains, but the big guys are in the southern plains - KS,TX,OK. It can be argued that those cattle might be a little thinner hided due to that area not going through the same sustained winters of the northern cattle. Also there is more brahma influenced cattle in the south for heat resistance, and those hides are supposed to be thinner too. It used to be that a lot of upper midwest farmers had a feedlot behind the barn. They farm all summer, put up some silage and grain, sell the excess on the grain market. In the winter they fed 50-300 cattle. They may be home raised calves or bought feeders. Those guys are not as common as they used to be. The town I grew up in the midwest still has a weekly cattle sale. There are not as many salebarns running back there because there just aren't the cattle numbers to support them there used to be.

Dairies have gotten bigger and have had some buy-out programs to help subsidize reduction of cattle numbers when milk prices go too low to be profitable. If you follow the 50% rule, for every heifer born that may go into the milking string, there is a dairy bull born that will end up a dairy feedlot steer. The old saw is that dairy breed hides are thinner.

So in a nutshell, I think the runoff in domestic hides could be due to a few factors. Younger cattle, beef breeds represented in US cattle, climate, and the dairy influence.

[JC Javelle]

JC,

I sure respect other opinions, but have a few observations here. As you will read, I have some biases. First off, McDonalds may be a big beef buyer, but percentage wise very few cattle are specifically geared entirely to McDonalds. The biggest value in a carcass are the prime cuts - McDonalds are not grinding $10/pound filets and T-bones for $1 double cheeseburgers. They are grinding meat from cull cows and less valuable meat cuts for hamburger. I just have to ask about the statement that corn kills cows. What's the basis of that? I have decent enough family background in cattle feeding, meat packing and processing, and just enough nutrtional courses to be dangerous, I just don't see the correlation. Moldy corn can do it, cattle not acclimated to a "hot ration" can have problems, but corn as a rule does not kill cattle offhand. To answer one of your questions - yes, the hides from the cattle fed for slaughter are used in the leather industry. Some are fed cattle and some are older cull dairy and beef cattle. That is pretty much the source of most all the hides except for the identified slaughter free hides sold by Steve Siegel. Even the slaughter free hides may have come from a pasture or a feedlot. As far as the quality difference between the forage fed cattle vs. feedlot cattle - hard to say because anymore very few cattle are finished on forage and their hides specifically separated and tanned to be sold as grass cattle hides. It would be interesting, some rawhiders have definite opinions, but the tanned hides are just for the most part fed cattle. Probably the biggest difference in decreasing hide quality and size has to do with "progress" in the cattle business. Hides are smaller, and the quality is not what the older guys tell us it used to be. These cattle have been bred up to gain faster, more efficiently, and result in a more consistant product at a younger age than cattle in the past. The hides are still a by-product, not the primary goal.

My great-grandfather used to buy a trainload of long yearling and two year old feeder cattle to put into the feedlot. He fed them and they went on the train to Chicago. He used to feed a pen of "steamers" for the fun of it - big overdone cattle whose steak would have an inch or more of fat left on it and spill over the plate. They were called steamers because they were served to the wealthy on steamships. You aren't going to find many cattle like that anymore. Think how big those hides were.

We've all seen the videos on slaughterhouse abuses. They happen, but aren't widespread in the industry. There has been a lot of improvements in livestock handling, and slaughter procedures in the last century and some would argue that improvements have doubled in the last 10 years. I just have to take exception that there are no ethics in the slaughter industry.

Respectfully,

Hi Bruce,

I am not a leather specialist, and I have rarely if anything to do with the living, breathing, bleeding animal side of my food. So please forgive me for a rather large amount of ignorance concerning the production side of things. But I do like to share what I know, so don't bite my head off it I may be wrong. I do like constructive criticism and learning new sides of things, probably to a fault.

There is the knowledge out there, whether correct or not (it is all opinions in the end), that the big I think three or four meat production companies more or less rule the food production world. McDonalds is supposedly the biggest purchaser of beef, chicken, and potatoes in the industry. Therefore, it is probably assumed, though probably not without too much falsities likely, that the biggest produced products are geared to make the biggest buyer happy. It is considered that even the meat packed in the grocery stores is an end product of what the biggest buyer wants. Cut quality aside, it comes from the same cow that was fed with the purpose of probably being a McDonalds cow. Now, not all beef is this way surely because not all cattle breeds are raised/produced for this purpose.

Corn kills cows is an indirect statement I suppose. Corn is considered to be unhealthy. It may not be to the degree that is published for the public to hear, or it may be worse. Corn is believed to cause ulcers in cows so large that they will punch holes in the sides of the animal. You can reach your hand, from outside of the cow, to inside one of the cows affected stomachs. This, among other related things likely, supposedly, can and will kill cows. That is why corn is supposedly fed during such a short period of time, and specifically at the end of their lives and not throughout them. It isn't quick though, but a gradual build up of things what corn supposedly does to their systems that will kill them if continued over an extended period of time.

Out of curiosity, I would like to know how many different companies there are that do slaughter animals, and their differences in methods from feeding, storage, killing and on down to dividing. As far as I can tell, there are the big ones (whose names I can't recall at the moment), and they control the majority of food put in our grocery stores. Documentaries, even seemingly unbiased ones, can only give so much information.

I am particularly interested in the quality difference between the pasture grown and, I suppose, feed lot beef hides. I would like to know if they feel any different between their qualities, like the feel of the hide, its durability, its weight, etc. Skin is skin, yes, but is there a difference between the health of the hide, if that is an applicable question?

[roo4u]

im a peta person....People for Eating Tasty Animals......mmmmmmm

but seriously, when the carcass removal people go by and pick up dead critters the hides are sold to the same place that buys the hides from the butcher shops...so i think more people get leather from field death cows than we think.