Position of Rider on a Horse

[Alan Bell]

I guess I should at least have a morning coffee before I open my mouth and insert my foot. JR no need to bow out. I'm quite sure your experience far exceeds mine and I am still trying to process a lot of the things I've gathered from all the different sources especially when they seem to contradict each other. I may come down on the wrong side now and again but I'm still trying to get it right. I'm not home now but I have a book that talks about "forward seat" and it has some interesting things to say and a lot of it is quite controversial, too. I was not trying to infer that you called David a kook it was just my vague attempt at comedy. My apologies for that. Like you stated this is far from the original post.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

We refuse to be what you wanted us to be; We are what we are and that's the way it's going to be!

Bob Marley - Vampire

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

David,

I am struggling to understand your entire philosophy of saddle fit. I know how much easier it is to see fit with a bare tree than with a real saddle. Pictures are harder yet. I looked at the site you linked. I saw three small pictures side on, which I copied and enlarged so I could try to get what you are talking about. I understand that you would like to place a person at position A in your pictures. Studying the pictures on the Whitney site I see him as sitting at least at B, and in different body positions.

This is where my frustration is coming in. A picture of a saddled horse being ridden doesn’t tell me what the shape of the bottom of your bars look like. It doesn’t tell me how you judge where to set the tree. It doesn’t tell me how you rig it to hold it in that place. I have seen your drawings of rocking chairs as your example of how a tree bar should be shaped and used to show rigging types. But drawings and the links you have given do not give us a real picture of your idea. That is what I and a number of people on this forum have been asking from you – real pictures of your trees, where you mean them to be placed on the horse and how you rig them to hold them there. It would really help us understand better. And once we understand the “what” we will be better poised to understand the “why” which I am even more unclear on but which is vital, as we all understand.

I appreciate you commenting on our knowledge of tree making, but honestly, we are no different than the other hand made tree makers we know. From what I have read in your bios on your site, the ESI site, your old post in the member gallery etc. you have come to the saddle making business from the production end of things. While we don’t know a lot about that way of making trees and saddles, we do know that it is a lot different than what hand makers do. A worker in a production company probably is more interested in his paycheck than saddle fit. I imagine most of the time of the owner and manager is taken up with keeping the equipment running, the employees working, business moving and trying to come up with new customers. If there is an R and D department, it is pretty insignificant. As far as I can gather, this is what you are referring to when you talk of “the industry”.

A hand maker is different. You spend a lot of hours alone in the shop shaping wood or leather. When you individually hand shape the bottom of every bar you make (to specific patterns) you think a lot about shape, fit, horses, riders, and occasionally what is for supper… The saddle makers we deal with also THINK!!! They spend a lot of time alone working with leather, and thinking about what they do. And most of them have hundreds and thousands of hours with their backside on the top side of a saddle. That gives you lots of thinking time too. (This is where the Dorrance brothers worked out their philosophies on horses and riding – thinking during thousands of hours in the saddle over all types of ground doing all types of jobs.) Also, your name and reputation goes out with every one of the 10 to 20 saddles or 150 trees you make a year. One unhappy customer is too high a percentage and can cause too much damage to your reputation and business to ignore. So when we talk with saddle and tree makers, we don’t talk about “what my daddy told me to do” (I assume you recognize the quote). We talk about real life, real trees, real horses and how things are really working – or not. We talk anatomy, movement, etc, maybe not in academic terms but in functional ones. I doubt this happens in the production world, but it sure does in the hand made world – and these are the people on this board. I am not sure that you are understanding your audience correctly here.

Human nature is interesting. Our perceptions vary depending on our viewpoint. You say you are feeling attacked. I honestly don’t see a personal attack on you anywhere in this thread. (Alan Bell and yourself are the only ones who have used the label “kook” and Alan obviously wasn’t attacking you.) I do see some people who are frustrated because they have repeatedly (in earlier threads as well) asked you for clarification and none has been forthcoming. On the other hand, your comments on “a real horseman” (and the one you pointed to seems to fit the criteria) could easily be interpreted as saying that none of the people participating in this thread are “real horsemen”, and by saying that you only make for people who are “seeking the higher levels of horsemanship” you may be interpreted as saying that everyone else doesn’t care about horsemanship. If that were so, it could be construed as major insults by a lot of people who spend their lives sleeping, eating, breathing horses, saddles, and how they connect. I hope this helps you understand a bit more of where I and others are coming from. Please help us understand what you are saying by clearing explaining, with pictures, your “big picture”. Then we will have a correct and common basis for considering your position. Thank you.

[greg gomersall]

I generally saddle my colt early every morning and go ride thru my cows before I go to the shop for the day. this morning I decided to mark the spot in my saddle while sitting in it that i felt was center underneath me. When I got of I tied a knot in the mane as a reference point and measured back going thru the handhole to the mark i had made on the seat. I then pulled the saddle and measured back the same distance on the horses back and placed a piece of tape. This colt is narrow so I use an old hamley I own on it. I then caught the big gelding, saddled him with a saddle I made for myself and went thru the same process. I took photos of these points on the horses marked with tape( unfortunately on 35mm film so the pictures will be posted after I get the film developed). In both cases I was sitting towards the center of what David reffered to as position B, no wheres near what he says is where most saddles put you position C. I also know most of the better makers are putting thier low spots of thier seats in the same areas as me so thats why I get my hair up when I get challenged by someone with a different viewpoint who can't back up what they are saying without sending me on a wild goose chase for a little info here and a little there with the sum total of it all still not amounting to anything. David you might be light years ahead of the rest of us or you could be the one off track. Please show us something we can base this info on. I have talked to one of your former employers and they said you were a good carver and a very aimable person, spoke well of you, I'm not trying to fight with you I would like to understand you. We are all allowed our own opinion's on things, but when you tell us we are all wrong you need to back it up concisely in simple short terms. Respectfully Greg Gomersall

[Blake]

Hello David

I think that you can clearly see that no one is attacking you. They/We just want reasonable answers .

You have always stated that your way is superior to what the mainstream is doing and all we have asked for is a credible explanation. A few pictures of your tree on a horse with some decent instruction will go a long way. I think that we are all a bit puzzled by your lack of response to this request.

We are not so set in our ways that we would not be willing to change our approach if there really is a better method and the industry could benefit. Modern Industry calls that upgrading and some call it progress.

I think that Greg at one point even offered to build on one of your trees. It might be a good thing for you to get with a Saddle Maker/Horseman like Greg.You might both come away a bit better from the experience.

Greg, The "C" position is fairly common on Gaited horses being ridden with a flat saddle. Like you, I have never seen this with a western saddle .

Kind Regards

Blake

[Ben]

I jump in here as a rider and a builder of one saddle for myself but looking to learn all I can. Greg mentioned drawings by Will James. I have a few Will James books my uncle gave me years ago when I became interested in horses. My two Spanish Mustangs, from the Brislawns, http://www.spanishmustang.org look very similar to the horses Will James illustrates in his books. When I lope my striped back grulla over rolling prairie he wants me as far forward toward his withers as I can get. My feet just touching the stirrups and my butt never in contact with the cantle. He is happy to go for miles like this. However, if we are going north and need to slide to a stop and pivot to go east I have to lift rein, slide back to the cantle, let him stop, raise his front, pivot, and head out again. I move back up toward his withers and he is happy. If we are going down gullies then weight back to the rear. My other horse, covering the same country, very similar in build, doesn't like me up there and prefers my weight more toward the cantle. Riding the horse is always a dynamic enterprise, I would think any conclusions with respect to tree, saddle fit, and horsemanship must be drawn from rider and horse in motion. Appears to me there are many many variables in a human navigating the country or arena from the back of a horse. Luckily for all the different tasks that we want to perform from the back of a horse there are plenty of varied makers to build the equipment needed.

Ben Knickerbocker

[Alan Bell]

Since I still am not at home I asked a horseman that I know, Roeliff Annon, to do the same experiment that Greg did. He did it in a saddle I made for him on a Warren Wright tree and one made by Steve Mecum a while back. (Greg you might know who was making Steve's trees say 10 yrs ago?) Any ways he said he was sitting at "B" or between "A" and "B" and added later on in the day that he felt that being in that position AIDED in collecting the horse and allowing the horse to lighten its forehand. He did not think a person wanting elevation would want to sit at "A" as he felt it was an extreme. He is a well versed horseman and his horses are lighter in the front end than some of the big name reining trainers horses that I have ridden. At any rate that says that there are other trees out there that will put the rider in the "desired" position. He also agreed that maybe some production saddles have you sitting between "B" and C" but probably not all the way back at "C". Greg also mentioned the "low spot" that the saddle maker can put into his ground seat work and how that affects where the position of the rider is on the horse. Ben he was also riding Brislawn horses. He's got quite a few breeds to chose from Spanish Mustang to QH's to Peruvian Paso to BLM stock. I also have to admit I would like to see what Greg would think of one of David's saddles or saddle trees. I know Greg to be a straight up person. Honest as the day is long in my doings with him and one that has also spent much time, effort and money LEARNING the craft of saddle making. I consider him one of the future top saddle makers in North America. (and i'm not alone) He is a Horseman and he knows what it means to be called a Horseman.

Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

the sun shall not smite I by day: nor the moon by night! And every word that I say shall be up full and right!

Bob Marley- Night Shift

[Yonatan]

I'm with Greg on Chuck Stormes' study. I suspect the old time California seat

reflects the fact that the vaqueros, "los viejos", rode a balance between "a la

jinete" and "a la brida". Like Mr Redding was saying, you ride the rough country,

and work horseback, you need to adjust to reality, as opposed to getting too

theoretical. It's unnatural to force only kind of seat, unless you're riding in an

arena, and sticking to one discipline, or one sport event. There are times when

sitting forward will send you flying. And there are times when you move your

weight forward and over the withers if you care about your horse, like when

you've got to scramble up a steep canyon wall. The kind of seat that Stormes

is talking about will set you up for both jinete and brida modes. I also agree with

Alan's observation about the way a California slick fork helps you keep the jinete

mode. But I'd just add this: the slick fork helps me make the transitions I need,

both forward AND back. Another observation relates to something Alan said on

another post, maybe at another forum too--it has to do with dish. The newer

deeper dished cantle styles can get you stuck. The older style shovel and spades

(I find) go together with the center seat for that subtle shift a rider needs to

make, forward and back, in various situations and conditions. I find that the

shallow dish keeps my tail bone tucked in, right where I need it, as opposed to

sunk back too deeply toward the cantle. Anyway, flowing between jinete and

brida is where it's at for me. I don't like too much rise ahead, or too deep a dish

behind. It's a matter of instinct and feel, and having the freedom to move with

the horse's action, and the job at hand.

[greg gomersall]

Alan I am not sure who's tree Steve was using 10 years ago but I believe Rick Reed is who he uses now. There are lots of good tree makers building trees that will allow the maker to put in the kind of seat that will allow the rider to work with his horse more easily. A few are as you mentioned Warren Wright, Rick Reed, Rod Nikkel, Ben Swanke, Severe's, Glenn Christman, Bill Bean, Jay Mawson, Dennis Lane, J. Watt. and the list goes on and on(I apoligize to those not mentioned). It is still up to the maker to do the seat correctly but having the top side of the tree properly shaped before you start helps. We have access to more quality tree makers now than we have had at anytime in history.

Being able to use the gear yourself helps one understand the fit function and form aspect of making the gear a little easier in my opinion. Greg

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Yonatan, I think that you've put into words what alot of us feel... trying to find a balance between the three seat positions that allows somebody working in a variety of conditions and performing many different tasks to be able to move in the seat that gives them the best comfort, balance, and security. I have posted a bunch of photos below showing some seat shapes from Visalia and Hamley's (these are just a sampling from the two companies... both makers had seat shapes that changed quite drastically over the years) and a couple of my own, there is a clearly visible difference of where the rider was intended to sit... is one right or wrong? I guess we all have to be our own judge of where we want our customers sitting. For myself, I like a seat similar to what Yonatan described which gives you some freedom to move forward and back from the low spot, to the position that suits the task at hand. As Ben mentioned, different horses may have different requirements and having the flexibility to adapt is most important to me.

I'd also be curious to hear anyone's opinion on how seat length affects rider position.

Darc

[Yonatan]

Darc,

Thanks for taking the effort to post those fine photos. In response to your question about

seat length and the rider's position, it's my understanding that once the modern seat came into being, say around the 1920s, the seats got longer. That high rise up front, together with the lower deep dish cantle, made the greater seat length necessary. Sit one of those older saddles in the photos you posted and you just might find you can go with a shorter seat. As I said before, I go for the old time seat, the kind Stormes is advocating. The low point is about 3/4 down from the fork, but it's subtle, like the Loomis saddle he's got in his article. I like the cantle shallow dished, shovel or spade, so I don't sink back. It keeps me in balance for natural movement and shifting weight. I ride from the seat. I don't need the room to slide back and forth. It's my weight that moves front and back, not really my body. The slick fork gives me the freedom I need. And no buck rolls for me. No double rig either. Staying centered gives me all the security I need. The only time I feel that cantle is

a slight contact, just a reminder that it's there. Same holds true up front in a narrow Visalia tree, or a McClellan. The fork on a Visalia is angled higher than it is on a Wade, and that's what I like. Just the hint of the fork rising gives my inner thighs what I need, even in steep country. If my seat was more fashionably long I'd lose that feel. So I've learned to trust a slightly shorter seat, as long as I'm riding the kind of seat I've described. In fact, it's just this feel that drove me to making my own gear, from a - z. I can't afford to wait for years and pay alot of money I don't have for another rig that just doesn't have it. It's not a padded seat, or a longer seat, that makes for comfort. It's a "just right" seat, a correct seat that does it for me.

Yonatan

[Tosch]

In this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2760 David posted a link to a forum where he explains and discusses his preferred seat incl. some pdf files with interesting drawings and explanations he did not post here. ((Quote: Here is a link to another forum where this point is being discussed end of Quote )) You have to register to the forum and (a few days ago) have to read through 8 pages...I think it might be worth doing it for people really interested although it had been nice if David had given a summary here. In one pdf it is advised to line up the front of the gullet with the high part of the withers. Otherwise (my interpretation) you could not get the rider to sit in position A. Thus the front of the bars go over the shoulder (blades), which is the reason (my interpretation) the front of the bars are (extremely) flared out "to free horse's shoulders" http://www.aboutthehorse.com/web/trees.shtml . So that -assumingly - the bars do not touch the shoulder blades but provide a structure for the seat to be placed this far forward. In one of the (pre-crash??, cannot find it anymore) threads about trees for the spanish mustangs were pics with SM with David's saddle on them , and some people commented the saddle sits up way too high, exactly that is the right position in this line of thinking.

I attach some of the pdfs (if it works) which are published in the above mentioned public forum. Again I encourage you to go to the forum and read for yourself. This here is just my extract. And it is a very interesting read - in more than one sense on the word. In the meantime this might be an "appetizer".

Tosch

David_Genadek__orientation_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_rigging_position_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_spine_movement_1_.pdf

David_Genadek__orientation_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_rigging_position_1_.pdf

David_Genadek_spine_movement_1_.pdf

Edited May 14, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

I prefer a slightly v-shaped seat with the low spot in the middle (a hair behind) of the seat, a fairly low build-up with a bit of dish to sides of the build-up and a slight rise towards the cantle. This seat lets me easily sit in the middle of the saddle with the ability to move as desired. When I first rode in this saddle I rode it for 3 hours ( a long time for me) , nothing did hurt and I was as fit as at the beginning of the ride and felt perfectly balanced the whole time.

The pics show what the seat looks like from different perspectives. I also like a dish that is there when I want it, a 3/4" dish seems to fit the bill for me.

In a seat to long for me I brace against the cantle with my feet stigging out in front - no good at all.

Tosch

Edited May 14, 2008 by Tosch

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Tosch,

thanks for the links, very interesting information. I especially like near the end of the thread, David provides a link to this forum so that everyone on that forum "can see what they are up against when you go to buy a saddle". His explanation of why he wouldn't send a tree to Greg to try building on is also very clear... he doesn't think others are open minded enough to try different ideas and decide for themselves.

D.

[greg gomersall]

David how much do you want for a tree? As I previously mentioned the first time this came up I am sure we could work something out if you were willing to discuss it with me. Greg

p.s. thanks Tosch

[Tosch]

Darc, Greg:

On purpose I kept a tight rein on myself not commending on some things, I wanted to keep my remarks "down to the facts". Glad you read it.

Tosch

[Tosch]

Greg,

I assume, in order to being able to ask for a tree you would need to supply David with some photos/measurements of the horse the tree is intended for. You will find more info here http://www.aboutthehorse.com/web/saddlefittingguide.shtml . You know now where to place his tree on the horse, so this should not be an obstacle anymore.

Tosch

[greg gomersall]

Once again thanks Tosch. I will be out of the shop for the rest of the week but will get everything David needs to build a tree for me next week. Maybe Joanna can find the thread on this from last year. I offered to work with David to make this possible and I also said I would ride the rig for a year. If this would not give me time to come to a fair and honest conclusion of my thoughts of this type of seat and placement than I don't know what would. David the ball is in your court. Greg

[Tosch]

Looking again through David G's thread at the other forum (link here on pag.2 ) and at other topics there, I ran into a suggested you tube video about a bullfighter and a palomino horse. I do not know which video was meant, but I came up with these 2 (and others) you tube videos I thought I share with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDshJC6u7dY and

To me it looks as if the rider(s) sit far forward and the saddle(s) ,too.

As far as I understand the Vaquera saddle does not have a wooden tree but is make of special stuffed straw, but don't quote me on that.

I think the riding skills are amazing. I think you will enjoy watching the riding.

Tosch

[Tosch]

I have to add to my previous post:

Looks like not all spanish horseback bullfighters or rejoneadores sit that far forward, this one does not

and his horse makes great movements , too.

And if you look at the "Doma Vaquera " videos the riders definitely sit further back.

But they all ride horse built differently than the QHs and they ride totally differently, whatever that means.

I watched the Nuno Olivera video

David G mentions in one of his posts here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=901 The pictures are not very clear but to my untrained eye it looks as if NO would be riding the cantle and sit in position B. The saddle sits over the horse's shoulder.

Here http://youtube.com/watch?v=90CEwvZQVYw&feature=related one can see another interesting riding style with the saddle not sitting over the shoulder as NO's saddle does.

I think this topic is interesting enough - and it were nice if you , David G, would rejoin and address some of the questions the professionals here had come up with like showing a tree sitting on a horse and explain what is there to see. And maybe even piece together a summary from articles or comments or other forum distributions you have made to give a well rounded picture of your views to the other professionals here, that were great.

I guess even if the end result would be that you and the other professionals here still disagree that were ok, too, but others would have a chance to better understand your views.

- And now I shut up -

Tosch

Edited May 25, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

Maybe I am kicking a dead horse here, but maybe someone might still be interested..

May 10, B.J. asked "David, Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so...." and did not get a real answer.

In my May 24 post (page 2) I posted what I had found in this regard at another place and my assumptions and PDFs I took from there. My assumption on David's saddle placement derived from the pdf " .. rigging position.." top drawing

I have just found another pdf -see below - that I had store some time ago that explains David's saddle positioning - the middle section that talks about flare is one of the interesting parts. When David refers to rigging positions , keep in mind his definitions seem to vary a bit from the position definition generally used, see pdf on ".. rigging position " .

Tosch

Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf

Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf

[ArtS]

I've learned a lot from this thread. ( I know what you're thinking - if he's learned a lot why is he so stupid and always asking questions )

All the different opinions is great. It means that people are thinking and that means that you care. You care about the horse, the rider and improving your skill.

When I started learning to ride I rode Dressage. I'm glad I did because it taught me a lot about horsemanship. Like someone once told me you can teach a monkey to ride but horsemanship is another matter. Here is the proof and notice he's riding in position A.

I agree with what Alan said. The stirrups should not have weight in them. Like the reins they are aids and if you put too much weight in them you will not have a proper seat or the ability to use your aids as well as you should. There sure is a big difference in the feel of a English saddle and a Western saddle.

As far as the rock in the bars won't that depend on the horse. Many horses are not in proper shape or fitness or just plain have a different shape to them. I guess the key is finding whats works best for "most " horses and then adapt to the others. Whether you agree with him or not I've learned a good bit from David's video. I've also learned a good bit from you 'ol timers. The most important thing I learned is just how much I don't know and still have to learn. So I imagine my first saddle may be far different than the last one that I ever make.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge and opinions. Keep 'em coming! I'm taking notes.

ArtS

Edited August 1, 2008 by ArtS

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hey Guys, are we at the OK Coral yet? Guess I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth. At the risk of seeming patronizing, I am sure that most of you have the Stolhman books. Since Al and Ann are now riding up there in Gods Country, you can't get a response on this from them, however; I think they cover the subject of saddle fit, rigging, seat construction and design completely in vol 1 of their encyclopedia set. I have been following their teachings since I started, and can say without exception, they have never led me wrong. That is going on 20 years now. That is all I'm going to say about that.

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

[Saddlebag]

David, having worked for a museum, art gallery, I'm wondering if the two illustrations and rider placement were the result of artistic license? We see this with the Currier & Ives renditions of horses and riders.

[californianinkansas]

David,Thank you for the information you have given us so far. Since I am a visual learner, I am still very interested to see pictures of your trees so we can see the underside a bit better and where you place them on a horse. That would help immensely in understanding your words. Thank you.

Some comments on information presented in previous posts:

Here is a link to a very interesting site David pointed us to a while back. http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreak...eatHistory.html

It shows that throughout history the rider's position has ranged anywhere from over the hips to the base of the neck. Just because something has been done it the past doesn't mean it is wise to repeat it.

While vet school has been more years ago than I care to mention and I would never claim to be an expert in anatomy, I would like to point out that the muscles surrounding the lumbar spine include: (Note, all these names have one muscle body one each side of the spine.)

Under the transverse processes – the psoas major, the psoas minor and the quadratus lumborum

Above the transverse processes – the longissimus dorsi, the middle gluteal, which starts about L2 and goes back, and the multifidus dorsi.

Some of these are large diameter muscles and the musculature around the lumbar spine is much more substantial than along the thorax where the ribs help support the trunk. So where there are no ribs, there is more muscle. And, as elsewhere in the spine, the vertebrae are well connected with a complicated system of ligaments.I find it interesting that the earliest pictures of people riding as shown on the above site have them seated right over the hips. Anatomically, this would be the strongest place for the horse to carry weight since the spine is directly connected to the leg – bones connected to bones. The forelimbs of the horse, and every other mammal I can currently think of with the exceptions of humans and primates, are not connected by bone but only by muscle. (It is the collarbone, or clavicle, which is the connecting bone when it is present and active.) So while the lumbar spine is not supported by ribs, it is much closer to a solid base of support – the pelvis – than the forelimbs which essentially hold up the front end of an animal in a sling of muscle. I am not trying to make a statement here as to where the horse is best able to carry and move with the weight of a rider. I wouldn't want to ride on a horse's hips. I am only pointing out anatomical facts.

In this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=901 is this quote where David Genadek made reference to his source of information.

I am assuming, David, that you are referring here to Dr. Deb Bennet whose works you are citing in your last post. On her website one of the articles in the "information" section is called "Woody". Here is a link to it. http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/woody.html

In it, under the 13th heading labeled "The Righting Reflex", she states "The shoulders are more independent in a horse than in, for example, a cat or a dog, because cats and dogs have collarbones and horses don't. This gives horses an ability to lean - to go crooked - which cats or dogs don't have." While it is true that cats do have tiny collarbones that are occasionally large enough to show up on X-ray, they are imbedded in the brachiocephalicus muscle and do not connect to the skeleton. None of our other domestic mammals have collarbones. As well, while cats will right themselves as they fall if they have enough space, dogs will not. I doubt that this research has been tried with horses. Extrapolating between species as is done in this article is a dangerous business because while some principles hold true, others don't. It is errors like these that make me question the credibility of other conclusions drawn by this author.

Denise Nikkel DVM

Dr. Nikkel,

Ma'am, thank you for this post. You've given me great clarity to a concept that was fuzzy at best.

V/R

Amber

Abilene, KS