Position of Rider on a Horse

[Tosch]

Greg,

I assume, in order to being able to ask for a tree you would need to supply David with some photos/measurements of the horse the tree is intended for. You will find more info here http://www.aboutthehorse.com/web/saddlefittingguide.shtml . You know now where to place his tree on the horse, so this should not be an obstacle anymore.

Tosch

[greg gomersall]

Once again thanks Tosch. I will be out of the shop for the rest of the week but will get everything David needs to build a tree for me next week. Maybe Joanna can find the thread on this from last year. I offered to work with David to make this possible and I also said I would ride the rig for a year. If this would not give me time to come to a fair and honest conclusion of my thoughts of this type of seat and placement than I don't know what would. David the ball is in your court. Greg

[Tosch]

Looking again through David G's thread at the other forum (link here on pag.2 ) and at other topics there, I ran into a suggested you tube video about a bullfighter and a palomino horse. I do not know which video was meant, but I came up with these 2 (and others) you tube videos I thought I share with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDshJC6u7dY and

To me it looks as if the rider(s) sit far forward and the saddle(s) ,too.

As far as I understand the Vaquera saddle does not have a wooden tree but is make of special stuffed straw, but don't quote me on that.

I think the riding skills are amazing. I think you will enjoy watching the riding.

Tosch

[Tosch]

I have to add to my previous post:

Looks like not all spanish horseback bullfighters or rejoneadores sit that far forward, this one does not

and his horse makes great movements , too.

And if you look at the "Doma Vaquera " videos the riders definitely sit further back.

But they all ride horse built differently than the QHs and they ride totally differently, whatever that means.

I watched the Nuno Olivera video

David G mentions in one of his posts here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=901 The pictures are not very clear but to my untrained eye it looks as if NO would be riding the cantle and sit in position B. The saddle sits over the horse's shoulder.

Here http://youtube.com/watch?v=90CEwvZQVYw&feature=related one can see another interesting riding style with the saddle not sitting over the shoulder as NO's saddle does.

I think this topic is interesting enough - and it were nice if you , David G, would rejoin and address some of the questions the professionals here had come up with like showing a tree sitting on a horse and explain what is there to see. And maybe even piece together a summary from articles or comments or other forum distributions you have made to give a well rounded picture of your views to the other professionals here, that were great.

I guess even if the end result would be that you and the other professionals here still disagree that were ok, too, but others would have a chance to better understand your views.

- And now I shut up -

Tosch

Edited May 25, 2008 by Tosch

[Tosch]

Maybe I am kicking a dead horse here, but maybe someone might still be interested..

May 10, B.J. asked "David, Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so...." and did not get a real answer.

In my May 24 post (page 2) I posted what I had found in this regard at another place and my assumptions and PDFs I took from there. My assumption on David's saddle placement derived from the pdf " .. rigging position.." top drawing

I have just found another pdf -see below - that I had store some time ago that explains David's saddle positioning - the middle section that talks about flare is one of the interesting parts. When David refers to rigging positions , keep in mind his definitions seem to vary a bit from the position definition generally used, see pdf on ".. rigging position " .

Tosch

Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf

Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf

[ArtS]

I've learned a lot from this thread. ( I know what you're thinking - if he's learned a lot why is he so stupid and always asking questions )

All the different opinions is great. It means that people are thinking and that means that you care. You care about the horse, the rider and improving your skill.

When I started learning to ride I rode Dressage. I'm glad I did because it taught me a lot about horsemanship. Like someone once told me you can teach a monkey to ride but horsemanship is another matter. Here is the proof and notice he's riding in position A.

I agree with what Alan said. The stirrups should not have weight in them. Like the reins they are aids and if you put too much weight in them you will not have a proper seat or the ability to use your aids as well as you should. There sure is a big difference in the feel of a English saddle and a Western saddle.

As far as the rock in the bars won't that depend on the horse. Many horses are not in proper shape or fitness or just plain have a different shape to them. I guess the key is finding whats works best for "most " horses and then adapt to the others. Whether you agree with him or not I've learned a good bit from David's video. I've also learned a good bit from you 'ol timers. The most important thing I learned is just how much I don't know and still have to learn. So I imagine my first saddle may be far different than the last one that I ever make.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge and opinions. Keep 'em coming! I'm taking notes.

ArtS

Edited August 1, 2008 by ArtS

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hey Guys, are we at the OK Coral yet? Guess I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth. At the risk of seeming patronizing, I am sure that most of you have the Stolhman books. Since Al and Ann are now riding up there in Gods Country, you can't get a response on this from them, however; I think they cover the subject of saddle fit, rigging, seat construction and design completely in vol 1 of their encyclopedia set. I have been following their teachings since I started, and can say without exception, they have never led me wrong. That is going on 20 years now. That is all I'm going to say about that.

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

[Saddlebag]

David, having worked for a museum, art gallery, I'm wondering if the two illustrations and rider placement were the result of artistic license? We see this with the Currier & Ives renditions of horses and riders.

[californianinkansas]

David,Thank you for the information you have given us so far. Since I am a visual learner, I am still very interested to see pictures of your trees so we can see the underside a bit better and where you place them on a horse. That would help immensely in understanding your words. Thank you.

Some comments on information presented in previous posts:

Here is a link to a very interesting site David pointed us to a while back. http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreak...eatHistory.html

It shows that throughout history the rider's position has ranged anywhere from over the hips to the base of the neck. Just because something has been done it the past doesn't mean it is wise to repeat it.

While vet school has been more years ago than I care to mention and I would never claim to be an expert in anatomy, I would like to point out that the muscles surrounding the lumbar spine include: (Note, all these names have one muscle body one each side of the spine.)

Under the transverse processes – the psoas major, the psoas minor and the quadratus lumborum

Above the transverse processes – the longissimus dorsi, the middle gluteal, which starts about L2 and goes back, and the multifidus dorsi.

Some of these are large diameter muscles and the musculature around the lumbar spine is much more substantial than along the thorax where the ribs help support the trunk. So where there are no ribs, there is more muscle. And, as elsewhere in the spine, the vertebrae are well connected with a complicated system of ligaments.I find it interesting that the earliest pictures of people riding as shown on the above site have them seated right over the hips. Anatomically, this would be the strongest place for the horse to carry weight since the spine is directly connected to the leg – bones connected to bones. The forelimbs of the horse, and every other mammal I can currently think of with the exceptions of humans and primates, are not connected by bone but only by muscle. (It is the collarbone, or clavicle, which is the connecting bone when it is present and active.) So while the lumbar spine is not supported by ribs, it is much closer to a solid base of support – the pelvis – than the forelimbs which essentially hold up the front end of an animal in a sling of muscle. I am not trying to make a statement here as to where the horse is best able to carry and move with the weight of a rider. I wouldn't want to ride on a horse's hips. I am only pointing out anatomical facts.

In this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=901 is this quote where David Genadek made reference to his source of information.

I am assuming, David, that you are referring here to Dr. Deb Bennet whose works you are citing in your last post. On her website one of the articles in the "information" section is called "Woody". Here is a link to it. http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/woody.html

In it, under the 13th heading labeled "The Righting Reflex", she states "The shoulders are more independent in a horse than in, for example, a cat or a dog, because cats and dogs have collarbones and horses don't. This gives horses an ability to lean - to go crooked - which cats or dogs don't have." While it is true that cats do have tiny collarbones that are occasionally large enough to show up on X-ray, they are imbedded in the brachiocephalicus muscle and do not connect to the skeleton. None of our other domestic mammals have collarbones. As well, while cats will right themselves as they fall if they have enough space, dogs will not. I doubt that this research has been tried with horses. Extrapolating between species as is done in this article is a dangerous business because while some principles hold true, others don't. It is errors like these that make me question the credibility of other conclusions drawn by this author.

Denise Nikkel DVM

Dr. Nikkel,

Ma'am, thank you for this post. You've given me great clarity to a concept that was fuzzy at best.

V/R

Amber

Abilene, KS