Eco, Low Carbon Footprint & Impact On Our Industry

[StevenSiegel]

This is meant to be informational, not politiical, which I believe is the purpose of this forum; the exchange of ideas.

A few months ago I was speaking with a friend who supplies a large manufacturer with leather. I asked him his opinion about the "future" of our industry, in particular if we, as an industry would be impacted by the "green" movement. His comments were very emphatic in regard to this. His opinion, based upon being the primary leather vendor for a couple of decades to a mulit-billion dollar company was that all of the large manufacturers would be requiring certification of their leather by the LWG in the near future. I was rather surprised by his remarks.

Here are a couple of industry links which if you follow them and take them to their links, etc....... Well, I wil let you be the judge. Here are two links.

http://www.all-about-leather.co.uk/what-is-leather/the-eco-leather-story.htm

http://blog.timberland.com/corporate-social-responsibility/green-stuff-we-love-low-impact-leather/#

If the links do not work copy and paste into your browser

Edited January 26, 2011 by StevenSiegel

[terrymac]

Steve,

Maybe it is my computer, but I couldn't get either link to open?

Terry

Edited January 26, 2011 by terrymac

[StevenSiegel]

Steve,

Maybe it is my computer, but I couldn't get either link to open?

Terry

try copy and paste into your browser... should work fine

[CitizenKate]

Try these:

http://www.all-about-leather.co.uk/what-is-leather/the-eco-leather-story.htm

http://blog.timberland.com/corporate-social-responsibility/green-stuff-we-love-low-impact-leather/

Kate

[terrymac]

Thanks Kate, worked like a charm.

Terry

[azrider]

Interesting topic. I have watched with skeptisism as the green movement gained traction. Most of the adoption I have seen and can't argue with involves more efficency. The company I work for has some huge buildings, with floresent tube lighting every few feet. Last year they removed one the three bulbs in each fixture, in the name of being green. In my mind, that's a cost cutting measure, plain and simple. I guess if there is a market for it, people will make it. Check this site out: http://www.ecohides.com/ $14.95 a square foot, or about $700 per hide. Thats not my market, but obviously one exists.

[mendedbowl]

Interesting topic. I have watched with skeptisism as the green movement gained traction. Most of the adoption I have seen and can't argue with involves more efficency. The company I work for has some huge buildings, with floresent tube lighting every few feet. Last year they removed one the three bulbs in each fixture, in the name of being green. In my mind, that's a cost cutting measure, plain and simple. I guess if there is a market for it, people will make it. Check this site out: http://www.ecohides.com/ $14.95 a square foot, or about $700 per hide. Thats not my market, but obviously one exists.

Wow!!! Tree Leather!!! They can call it Treather!!! (insert random tree hugging joke here )

[terrymac]

I have a question for someone with more smarts than me. Is there anything inherently dangerous or harmful in vegtan leather?? There is alot of this stuff that ends up in guidelines or regulations that make someone feel good, but in reality don't accomplish a whole lot of benefit except giving someone a marketing angle that ends up costing us more money. Just wondering.

Terry

[StevenSiegel]

I have a question for someone with more smarts than me. Is there anything inherently dangerous or harmful in vegtan leather?? There is alot of this stuff that ends up in guidelines or regulations that make someone feel good, but in reality don't accomplish a whole lot of benefit except giving someone a marketing angle that ends up costing us more money. Just wondering.

Terry

HI Terry,

This is interesting.

I don't claim to have more smarts than you. But,

Vegetable tanned leather uses more water than other processes (if I am reading the BLC guidelines correctly), So, for the "eco" crowd this becomes a concern.

The byproducts of vegetable tanning (only the tanning process) can be converted to harmless products. (By anyone's standards)

However, to the best of my knowledge there is only one SuperFund Site still associated with the tanning industry in the US and it's a vegetable tannery located in Middlesboro, KY.

The byproducts of mineral tannages have to be concentrated and dumped in a designated area. They cannot be converted to a "harmless" product.

[terrymac]

Steve,

Thanks for responding. That is what I kind of figured but wasn't sure

Terry

[cem]

Check this site out: http://www.ecohides.com/ $14.95 a square foot, or about $700 per hide. Thats not my market, but obviously one exists.

I had a look at the site and was wondering how is it different than normal veg tan leather does it use less water as Steven mentioned or is it just a marketing ploy.

Clair

[StevenSiegel]

I had a look at the site and was wondering how is it different than normal veg tan leather does it use less water as Steven mentioned or is it just a marketing ploy.

Clair

Hi Clair,

They are located in Los Angeles. This is one of the areas of our country where there seems to be a "demand" for anything with the name "eco" attached.

I don't know if they use less water. I don't know if all of their pigments are "metal-complexed" free. However, I would expect that their effluent is well-treated, especially since they are in Los Angeles. The vegetable tannery in Kentucky with the pollution problems had to do with how they treated their effluent.

I guess someone could email them and ask them how their vegetable tanned leather differs from other vegetable tanned leathers and see what you receive for a response.

Regards,

Steve

[cem]

Thanks Steven, the LA thing probably explains it then, I thought there was only three veg tan places left in America (Horween, Hermann Oak and Wickett n Craig) are there still some smaller ones floating around.

Cheers,

Clair

[TexasJack]

I've been doing environmental work for over 30 years. I grew up in a highly industrial area and I saw first hand just how bad things could get without trying to do things right.

And I will be the first to tell you that this whole "carbon footprint" eco stuff is a giant crock of ****.

We were given the great resources of this planet to use wisely - and we should do that. In fact, the US and Europe have made tremendous strides in pollution control. Things like better insulation, LEDs, cogeneration (where the waste heat from making electricity is used to make steam for heating purposes), etc. can really allow us to reduce pollution, save resources, and enjoy life with very reasonable cost . But leather products ARE a wise use of the environment. Same with wood and paper and cotton. Paying insane prices for leather from animals that happened to fall over and die? C'mon! That's crap.

If a single 'natural' chemical can be used in making a product, suddenly it qualifies for "eco" status (and fetches higher prices). Buying it doesn't help the planet, it helps the company's CEO get a bigger bonus. The company I work for formed a "sustainability committee". No scientists, no engineers - all directors, VPs, etc. Are they looking for ways to better use our resources? No. What they're looking for is awards that they can try to garnish so they can pose for the media.

The earth is not a static environment; it is dynamic. More CO2? More plant life! What do plants do? Convert CO2 to oxygen. Dynamic, changing, surviving - that's what life is.

Drink all the Al Gore kool-aide you want, but don't be surprised if it doesn't satisfy as advertised. C.S. Lewis said, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing. They believe in anything."

[catskin]

VERY well put !!!!!!!!

I've been doing environmental work for over 30 years. I grew up in a highly industrial area and I saw first hand just how bad things could get without trying to do things right.

And I will be the first to tell you that this whole "carbon footprint" eco stuff is a giant crock of ****.

We were given the great resources of this planet to use wisely - and we should do that. In fact, the US and Europe have made tremendous strides in pollution control. Things like better insulation, LEDs, cogeneration (where the waste heat from making electricity is used to make steam for heating purposes), etc. can really allow us to reduce pollution, save resources, and enjoy life with very reasonable cost . But leather products ARE a wise use of the environment. Same with wood and paper and cotton. Paying insane prices for leather from animals that happened to fall over and die? C'mon! That's crap.

If a single 'natural' chemical can be used in making a product, suddenly it qualifies for "eco" status (and fetches higher prices). Buying it doesn't help the planet, it helps the company's CEO get a bigger bonus. The company I work for formed a "sustainability committee". No scientists, no engineers - all directors, VPs, etc. Are they looking for ways to better use our resources? No. What they're looking for is awards that they can try to garnish so they can pose for the media.

The earth is not a static environment; it is dynamic. More CO2? More plant life! What do plants do? Convert CO2 to oxygen. Dynamic, changing, surviving - that's what life is.

Drink all the Al Gore kool-aide you want, but don't be surprised if it doesn't satisfy as advertised. C.S. Lewis said, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing. They believe in anything."

[busted]

I've been doing environmental work for over 30 years. I grew up in a highly industrial area and I saw first hand just how bad things could get without trying to do things right.

And I will be the first to tell you that this whole "carbon footprint" eco stuff is a giant crock of ****.

We were given the great resources of this planet to use wisely - and we should do that. In fact, the US and Europe have made tremendous strides in pollution control. Things like better insulation, LEDs, cogeneration (where the waste heat from making electricity is used to make steam for heating purposes), etc. can really allow us to reduce pollution, save resources, and enjoy life with very reasonable cost . But leather products ARE a wise use of the environment. Same with wood and paper and cotton. Paying insane prices for leather from animals that happened to fall over and die? C'mon! That's crap.

If a single 'natural' chemical can be used in making a product, suddenly it qualifies for "eco" status (and fetches higher prices). Buying it doesn't help the planet, it helps the company's CEO get a bigger bonus. The company I work for formed a "sustainability committee". No scientists, no engineers - all directors, VPs, etc. Are they looking for ways to better use our resources? No. What they're looking for is awards that they can try to garnish so they can pose for the media.

The earth is not a static environment; it is dynamic. More CO2? More plant life! What do plants do? Convert CO2 to oxygen. Dynamic, changing, surviving - that's what life is.

Drink all the Al Gore kool-aide you want, but don't be surprised if it doesn't satisfy as advertised. C.S. Lewis said, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing. They believe in anything."

You are one of the few that understand the Goricle and his stupidity. God designed the earth for man and plant to survive together. Man generates co2 by breathing and the plants use the co2 to live and exhale o2 in the process. What a marvelous invention God made. I really like the one about the cow farts destroying the ozone ROFLOL what a bunch of idiots. Those pig tail lights are the next thing of stupidity replacing a harmless incandescent light bulb with a bulb that contains mercury. Now that is a great idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree with you and the gentleman from Canada.

Edited January 30, 2011 by busted

[JohnBarton]

Well, I live in China and let me tell you that "God" did not design the world so that companies can dump waste into water sources making those water sources poisonous. God did not design the world so that large factories can burn off plastic waste downwind from a village.

I live in Xiamen China. This is an island which is very clean and quiet. The view outside my office window right now is of a pretty lake sitting next to a beautiful bay. I am told that 20 years ago this lake was a giant cesspool full of trash and horrible to see and smell. I am told that the smell was so bad that people had to wear filtered masks to get through the day.

About ten years ago the goverment decided to clean up Xiamen and in 2002 they won some global award for being a clean and environmentally friendly city.

Unfortunately Xiamen is the exception rather than the rule. China is probably moving forward on getting "green" in a lot of areas faster than in the West. But at the same time they have a LOT of industrial and even personal pollution happening.

The "carbon footprint" is not a crock. It's a valid concept that accurately measures the amount of CO2 produced when we consume energy by the creation of heat. I find it personally funny that someone would say that a carbon footprint is a crock while simultaneously telling me that I should believe that an invisible all-powerful entity created the world in 6 days. So forgo the things we know and can be proven for those which can't?

You ever heard the joke about the guy who prayed to win the lottery?

Dear God please allow me to win the lottery?

This is asked every night for ten years.

Finally an exasperated God speaks directly to the guy......."my son why don't you buy a ticket?"

Did any of you who believe in God ever stop to consider that maybe God put climatologists on the Earth in order to help us to understand the Earth and nature and how to be better stewards of it?

Reminds me of the coaches who only ask God to help their team win. Why not thanks God for allowing us to be able to play a game and we hope that everyone plays great and has a good time and no one get's hurt?

Like Chis Rock said said, God Bless America and no one else. (said when satirizing a politician)

Face it - leather is a "dirty" product in it's manufacturing. But it's a natural product and one of the most versatile, strongest and best for the widest variety of applications. It can be made by anyone without the need of large machines and complex processes. An individual cannot make vinyl easily if at all. And leather isn't going anywhere, as long as we are killing animals for food then we will find ways to profit off off their skins. One thing we don't waste a lot of is opportunities to make money. If it can be sold someone is selling it.

Personally I look towards the leather industry "greening" itself up because at the end of the day saving money by using less energy and resources to obtain the same or better product just makes better business sense. And if they can charge more for it in the short term to offset the investment costs of retooling then more power to them. Because eventually the who industry will have to keep up with the Jones' and then prices will level off.

And for those of you who don't believe that what we do affects the climate why don't you try a couple of homegrown experiments and tell us how they worked out. If you know a neighbor who has a well then go pee in it and see how they react. Do you have a nice lawn that you love? Go get yourself a vat of sulfur dioxide and rig it up so that it mixes with your sprinkler system and spray that on your prized lawn for a few weeks and tell us what happens.

The fact is that scientists don't know everything about the biosphere we live on. But they know more now than 100 years ago and more than 50 years ago and more then 10 and more than last year. And each year that knowledge of what's really happening is increased tremendously due to the tools they have available and global collaboration. One thing is certain, the scientific community knows more about what makes the WORLD tick than you do and more than I do.

Maybe George Carlin was right, maybe the planet will shake us off like a dog gets rid of fleas. Maybe to the planet we are just a surface irritation. For sure the planet will survive even if we make it uninhabitable for ourselves.

But the fact is that this is not going to happen because we are going to all get "green" whether we want to and whether we believe we need to. It's going to happen because governments and corporations are going to force it to happen. Because being green is the new banner to stand under if you are a politician and it's the new way to make money if you are a company.

Watch and see.

[catskin]

Here are a few FACTS. If I am wrong prove it.

Pollution and the changes in climate are two totally different things.

Man with all his so called wisdom can NOT tell me what the temperature will be within 2 degrees tomorrow at noon. And some scientists expect sane people to beleive they can tell us the KNOW what the average yearly temperature was 100 or 1000 or 1000000 years ago.

If these man made global warming claimants were intellegent enough to get out and look at the tree stumps in the arctic or the fossils they would see that earth was warmer by far in the past then it is now.

If science is to be believed each volcano that erupted such as mount St helens or pinatubo and there are many others, each put out more Co2 and other so called greenhouse gases in 1 hour then all mankind ever has in a year why don't they just CAP one volcano and they could freeze all life on earth to death in a few years.

If any body thinks there is no God where is the proof?

Well, I live in China and let me tell you that "God" did not design the world so that companies can dump waste into water sources making those water sources poisonous. God did not design the world so that large factories can burn off plastic waste downwind from a village.

I live in Xiamen China. This is an island which is very clean and quiet. The view outside my office window right now is of a pretty lake sitting next to a beautiful bay. I am told that 20 years ago this lake was a giant cesspool full of trash and horrible to see and smell. I am told that the smell was so bad that people had to wear filtered masks to get through the day.

About ten years ago the goverment decided to clean up Xiamen and in 2002 they won some global award for being a clean and environmentally friendly city.

Unfortunately Xiamen is the exception rather than the rule. China is probably moving forward on getting "green" in a lot of areas faster than in the West. But at the same time they have a LOT of industrial and even personal pollution happening.

The "carbon footprint" is not a crock. It's a valid concept that accurately measures the amount of CO2 produced when we consume energy by the creation of heat. I find it personally funny that someone would say that a carbon footprint is a crock while simultaneously telling me that I should believe that an invisible all-powerful entity created the world in 6 days. So forgo the things we know and can be proven for those which can't?

You ever heard the joke about the guy who prayed to win the lottery?

Dear God please allow me to win the lottery?

This is asked every night for ten years.

Finally an exasperated God speaks directly to the guy......."my son why don't you buy a ticket?"

Did any of you who believe in God ever stop to consider that maybe God put climatologists on the Earth in order to help us to understand the Earth and nature and how to be better stewards of it?

Reminds me of the coaches who only ask God to help their team win. Why not thanks God for allowing us to be able to play a game and we hope that everyone plays great and has a good time and no one get's hurt?

Like Chis Rock said said, God Bless America and no one else. (said when satirizing a politician)

Face it - leather is a "dirty" product in it's manufacturing. But it's a natural product and one of the most versatile, strongest and best for the widest variety of applications. It can be made by anyone without the need of large machines and complex processes. An individual cannot make vinyl easily if at all. And leather isn't going anywhere, as long as we are killing animals for food then we will find ways to profit off off their skins. One thing we don't waste a lot of is opportunities to make money. If it can be sold someone is selling it.

Personally I look towards the leather industry "greening" itself up because at the end of the day saving money by using less energy and resources to obtain the same or better product just makes better business sense. And if they can charge more for it in the short term to offset the investment costs of retooling then more power to them. Because eventually the who industry will have to keep up with the Jones' and then prices will level off.

And for those of you who don't believe that what we do affects the climate why don't you try a couple of homegrown experiments and tell us how they worked out. If you know a neighbor who has a well then go pee in it and see how they react. Do you have a nice lawn that you love? Go get yourself a vat of sulfur dioxide and rig it up so that it mixes with your sprinkler system and spray that on your prized lawn for a few weeks and tell us what happens.

The fact is that scientists don't know everything about the biosphere we live on. But they know more now than 100 years ago and more than 50 years ago and more then 10 and more than last year. And each year that knowledge of what's really happening is increased tremendously due to the tools they have available and global collaboration. One thing is certain, the scientific community knows more about what makes the WORLD tick than you do and more than I do.

Maybe George Carlin was right, maybe the planet will shake us off like a dog gets rid of fleas. Maybe to the planet we are just a surface irritation. For sure the planet will survive even if we make it uninhabitable for ourselves.

But the fact is that this is not going to happen because we are going to all get "green" whether we want to and whether we believe we need to. It's going to happen because governments and corporations are going to force it to happen. Because being green is the new banner to stand under if you are a politician and it's the new way to make money if you are a company.

Watch and see.

[tg lucas]

Hey maybe this guy has hit on a great point....lets just ship all the hippies to China?

[JohnBarton]

Here are a few FACTS. If I am wrong prove it.

Pollution and the changes in climate are two totally different things.

Man with all his so called wisdom can NOT tell me what the temperature will be within 2 degrees tomorrow at noon. And some scientists expect sane people to beleive they can tell us the KNOW what the average yearly temperature was 100 or 1000 or 1000000 years ago.

If these man made global warming claimants were intellegent enough to get out and look at the tree stumps in the arctic or the fossils they would see that earth was warmer by far in the past then it is now.

If science is to be believed each volcano that erupted such as mount St helens or pinatubo and there are many others, each put out more Co2 and other so called greenhouse gases in 1 hour then all mankind ever has in a year why don't they just CAP one volcano and they could freeze all life on earth to death in a few years.

If any body thinks there is no God where is the proof?

http://www.jri.org.u...imatechange.htm

http://whyfiles.org/...ther-forecasts/

http://www.straightd...recast-accuracy

It's funny that people love the "science" that is beneficial to them like the science behind what makes your computer work, the science that makes your lights work, the science that provides you with life saving medical equipment. All that is good science. But the science which says hey you are contributing to adverse climate change is "bogus"????/

Very interesting outlook on how the world works.

FYI - I was a weather observer in the Air Force. We had to predict the weather to support a helicopter unit. Since I had to OBSERVE the weather I got to see first hand how accurate the forecasts were and by and large they were very accurate on a day to day basis.

And by the way I didn't say that there is no God. I just get amused at all the people who profess to believe in God and say that God is infinitely wise and infintely powerful and all that will happen is already known by God and then they presume to tell everyone that they know what God is thinking or what God wants. I think that if there is a God then we are like an ant colony to him. I think that he created the world and threw in "science" just like poking a stick at ants to see them react. I think God is laughing at us if anything.

By the same token above about people liking only the science that they find useful I get amused that there is some idea that science and God are opposed. Didn't God create the universe and everything and every thought we have comes from Him? Well that's about as deep as I can get - I am already in trouble for not being a "good" American. :-)

I should stop now while I am behind.

Edited February 4, 2011 by JohnBarton

[catskin]

J B, you did a very good job of finding those links that prove my points.

As for your claim that I do not support science , you are wrong, I support GOOD science stronger then most. What I do NOT support is scientists who pick and choose what they want to believe just to fill their pockets.

There is NO proof that anybody on earth has the ability to measure the amount of Co2 or any other so called greenhouse gases put out by man accurately enough to be relavant.

If they could all of the tests would be very near the same, THEY ARE NOT.

For example these man made global warmnig claimants were saying very recently that the area in Australia that had been drought stricken for about 10 years would never again see enough rain to sustain any kind of livelihood for people , and now it is having the worst FLOODS in history.

These same kind of people claimed that the oil spill in the gulf would take 100s or more years to disappear and now they can barely find at trace bacause natural organisims deep in the ocean have broken it down so as nearly none is left as crude oil.

If a person wants the truth you must look at ALL the science to before making up your mind.

http://www.jri.org.u...imatechange.htm

http://whyfiles.org/...ther-forecasts/

http://www.straightd...recast-accuracy

It's funny that people love the "science" that is beneficial to them like the science behind what makes your computer work, the science that makes your lights work, the science that provides you with life saving medical equipment. All that is good science. But the science which says hey you are contributing to adverse climate change is "bogus"????/

Very interesting outlook on how the world works.

FYI - I was a weather observer in the Air Force. We had to predict the weather to support a helicopter unit. Since I had to OBSERVE the weather I got to see first hand how accurate the forecasts were and by and large they were very accurate on a day to day basis.

And by the way I didn't say that there is no God. I just get amused at all the people who profess to believe in God and say that God is infinitely wise and infintely powerful and all that will happen is already known by God and then they presume to tell everyone that they know what God is thinking or what God wants. I think that if there is a God then we are like an ant colony to him. I think that he created the world and threw in "science" just like poking a stick at ants to see them react. I think God is laughing at us if anything.

By the same token above about people liking only the science that they find useful I get amused that there is some idea that science and God are opposed. Didn't God create the universe and everything and every thought we have comes from Him? Well that's about as deep as I can get - I am already in trouble for not being a "good" American. :-)

I should stop now while I am behind.