What Would You Do?

[GrampaJoel]

Back ground,

Yesterday a saddle was brought in for repair to me with one stirrup leather and fender missing. It was a smaller size saddle, and the person said that the saddle is used for teaching children to ride. Not a very expensive saddle when it was new I would guess. This one had seen quite a bit of use , or abuse.

I checked the saddle out and the tree originally was fiber glassed covered wood, the tree appeared old and dry with quite a bit of the fiberglass in the stirrup leather slot missing but in ok condition I'd say usable for soft riding.The saddle was missing the off side fender and leather.

Upon inspection I found that the fiber glass had either worn or cracked at the stirrup slot upper edge on the bar and had splintered and created a very jagged edge. This I believe had been cutting on the original leather for some time, and is what probably caused the leather to be torn off in the wreck the saddle went through.

Overall the saddles top side at first glance looked fine. But the latago was very old and worn. The remaining stirrup leather was very worn out. The fiberglass on the near side stirrup slot was in ok condition. But the leather was shot. Really shot!!!

I quoted my price (I considered it to be maybe a little high), to replace the one fender and leather and tree in the fender slot area. The person said that is about the same quote they had gotten from someone else, and didn't feel the saddle was worth that amount. ok no big deal to me, I think it's good to get more than one quote.

I would have liked to fix the saddle completely. Sand down the jagged fiberglass and fix it. Replace both of the fenders and leathers and put a new latago on. In general go over the whole saddle and make sure it was safe to use.

I actually considered repairing the saddle at my material cost just so the saddle would be safe for children to use,

But,,,, if this person sells their services as a professional, and uses a saddle in as poor as condition as this one to teach children to ride with, what else is this person doing that would endanger children while learning to ride?

Now my question

So what would you have done?

Edited March 9, 2011 by GrampaJoel

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

I have had the same type of thing come into my shop. I flat out refused to repair the saddle. I told the owner if they cared about the kids they would get them a better saddle. The owner was a lawyer and said that he just wanted the minimal repairs done. I figured that no matter what I fixed on the saddle, if any thing went wrong it would be my fault. It was not worth any amount of money to take the chance. Remember you are the professional and when that saddle leaves your door you are going to be responsible for it. I would have not fixed it if I were you.

Ash

Edited March 9, 2011 by snakehorse saddler

[kseidel]

Ethics in any field of business is a great source of debate. In most professions, there is a licensing requirement in order to practice that profession. Not so in certain areas of the livestock industry. Seems anyone who wants can declare themselves a horse trainer ( or saddle maker, or tree maker, or saddle fitter) and the public perceives them to be a knowledgeable and trained professional that knows what they are doing. In many cases they are no more trained or knowledgeable than any one else. It is one thing for an individual to use inferior tack for personal use. It is quite another for a professional. Many states have adopted the ruling that equine related activities are inherently dangerous and one participates at their own risk. The courts will not assess any blame for negligence on the part of the outfitter, trainer etc. Therefore some individuals take advantage of this situation to prey on the public making their living providing a service without proper equipment, training and precaution. Many injuries are caused each year -both to people and animals alike- from inferior tack used in professional endeavors and no one is held accountable because of the "inherent dangers." We should all work diligently to hold our related industries to a higher standard of professionalism!

I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry, but if we do not police ourselves and refuse to engage in these unscrupulous practices, then we leave ourselves open for future regulation.

OK, I will get off my soap box now and let someone else have it to voice their opinion.

Keith

[Kevin]

Right on, I can't believe the stuff that I see sometimes from so called reputable companies, but once it is out of their hands they never see it again or don't care.

Kevin

[GrampaJoel]

snakehorse saddler

Thank you for your reply.While I haven't made any saddles from start to finish, I have repaired a few.

I won't repair any saddle if I am not allowed to do a repair correctly and completely.

But I sure hate to see someone else get the money. Yes it is a loss of money. Lets face it.

However, I would rather be able to keep my sleep at night knowing I did what was right, and try and find the money in good work.

kseidel

Mr. Seidel I am honored, as always, that you have taken the time to share your thoughts. I would be happy to bring a soap box for you to stand on anytime you would like to speak about any related field of the saddle business.

Thank you for contributing to my thread.

The business of making saddles and equine related equipment and horse/horse rider training run hand and hand. As you stated there is no licensing requirement in order to practice in any of these professions.

Maybe there should be.

However, I am not a fan of big government interference.

Ethics, that is what it all comes down to I guess.

Joel

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Joel, Keith is spot on. If you can't fix it or make it right, then don't do it. After all, at night you are the one that has to sleep with the work you do. Quite often, I get similar situations with the guys from the Race Track. Being professional trainers, you would think that of all people, they would know how dangerous it is even with good tack on those horses that are trained to do one thing, go! Not the case. If I can't do it right I will just pass. I am sure that all the makers on this sight are faced with the same choices each day. Like Keith said "I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry, but if we do not police ourselves and refuse to engage in these unscrupulous practices, then we leave ourselves open for future regulation. ". Hope you don't mind me climbing on your box for a couple of moments Keith.

Bob

[Fred P]

I had a situation along these lines that I would like to share and would appreciate any input. A couple of years ago a lady brought a saddle to me she had recently purchased used. It was basically a generic factory made saddle. Her request was to clean and oil the saddle and "just check it out for me". The saddle was in pretty decent shape, and I performed the cleaning and oil as she requested, and told her it looked like she made a good buy. Two weeks later she called me furious because the off strap broke while someone was riding. The rider fell to the ground. He was not serously injured, just banged up a little bit. When she returned to my shop, I inspected the strap and noted it was a single ply piece of what I thought was harness leather. It had a long scratch across the side of the strap. A hole had torn out right at the scratch. The owner yelled at me saying that I told her the saddle was "good to ride". She even brought family members, so she had support I guess. I tried to explain to her there is no way to gaurantee the strength of a piece of leather. At that point, no amount of explaining was going to do any good, they just wanted to take their anger out on me. To shorten the story, I replaced the strap at no cost, just to get them to leave, then waited nervously for them to sue me, as that is what they were threatening to do. They never did, thankfully.

I am not a professional saddle maker, but want to learn ! I do repairs that I feel comfortable and competent to do. I wanted to share this story to seek input from some pros, but also to seek advice on how or if there is a financially feasable way to insure yourself for that liability. I know you could buy insurance for just about everything as long as you have the money ! Also do any of the full time makers provide some sort of disclaimer or something along those lines,, for repairs or new saddles. If I hear " ride at your own risk" would make me wonder about the quality of the work. I gotta admit I had many sleepless nights worrying about this and the person that got hurt.

If anyone has a disclaimer they wouldn't mind sharing, I would appreciate studying one.

Enough of my rambling ! and I apologize if I have hijacked the thread. Reading Joel's post made me think of this and I thought about sharing this, so hopefully some positive advice can help someone else.

Joel, I would have done the same as you did for the same reasons. I dont want my name ( and conscience) on shoddy unsafe work !

Thanks for listening !

Sincerely,

Fred

[BOB BRENNER]

I agree. If it can not be done right, don't do it. Everytime you take a shortcut it will cost you.

Fred,

This is what is on my invoices and on the web site.

Pikes Peak Saddlery selects materials and constructs our products and repairs to provide optimum quality and durability. Horses are strong and powerful animals that can cause the failure of even the highest quality products and repairs. Your common sense and commitment to equine safety are vital for the safety of both you and your horse.

Feel free to one and all.

Bob

[kseidel]

Back on the soap box again... There is plenty of room up here for all of you who feel as strongly as I about the health and well being of our industry.

When doing repairs on sub standard equipment, it is hard to know when to stop. You can't rebuild the entire product for a repair! I believe it is imperative that everyone doing leatherwork on equine products should have a working knowledge of the equipment, and make the hard decisions of what is acceptable and what is not, and then stand behind your work, good or bad. When we allow inferior work to go unpunished, it blackens the eye of an entire industry. If you are not qualified to do safe work, then do not do it. Nothing against hobby leatherworkers, but they are not trained professionals and may not be qualified to "fix the neighbors" tack. Many retailers are not knowledgeable in the area of safety and practical use of tack and are only interested in making the sale. Sure there are several ways to make something "work" but in Fred's case, a single ply off side billet is not acceptable. We professionals must recognize these things and either fix them to be safe, or refuse to work on the product. Many times this may mean loss of revenue, but it is ill gotten gains, that may result in injury.

Fred, there many types of insurances available to protect yourself from financial ruin. It is unwise, and in some instances, illegal to conduct business without liability insurance. Since it can be expensive, many do not have such coverage. You may say "it costs too much" but in the long run it is just part of the cost of doing business. It is one of the reasons "hobby" leatherwork costs less than professional. If you cannot afford liability insurance, can you really afford to be in business?

I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly.

I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions.

Sorry if this came out as a rant...

Keith

[Billy H]

Hi Keith,

I don't think I disagree with what your saying. But regardless what industry-----there is always going to be good and bad and some-where in the middle.

That will go on as long as there is human nature.

My" SOAP BOX"

I think that as adults it is our responsibility to educate ourselves about safety before we get into a hobby or sport ,especially when it comes to" Horses".

There are so many folks out riding horses with terrible equipment, bad for the riders safety and bad for the horses safety. Again it comes back to human nature.

Can't tell you how many times I have had to endure stories of how someone got such a good deal on a saddle and then ended up in a wreck with the horse because

either something broke or the fit was no where close to the animal they where riding. Sometimes I just want to scream at them an say you #%*## what did you expect.

Sorry,I needed to vent (ok I feel better). Billy