Ugly Stitches

[Jovial]

Anyone know whats up with my bottom stitches? I had a topic before and was told that a reverse twist needle would take care of my puckering on the bottom stitches but.... it doesn't really look any better.

Since I seem to still be missing something I will throw myself upon the mercy of my betters and ask for help.

I know I need to change out the feet for something without teeth to clear up those marks but I need to find a place online that sells them first.

My setup is a Consew 206RB-1 using the 135x16NW size 22 Needles. Photo order is Top, Bottom respectively.

[TwinOaks]

Part of it looks like a tension adjustment issue, part of it like needle deflection (the weaving around part). Double check your needle/thread compatibility, that's an awfully large hole on the top. Also check the seating of the needle to make sure it properly forms the loop. When the needle begins to lift, the thread should make a small loop for the hook to grab. If your hole is the wrong size or the needle is seated wrong, it can alter the loop size. If the loop is too small and is not grabbed by the hook, you get skipped stitches. If it's too large, then there's extra thread that the take up arm has to deal with before it ever starts properly tensioning the lock stitch.

That can result in the bottom thread not being pulled into the hole all the way.

[Jovial]

Thanks for the input TwinOaks but I think the pictures must be deceiving or something. The thread (T135) is pulling tight and stitching as it should be and locking in the middle in those pictures. My concern or question deals rather with the cracking/puckering around the bottom puncture (exit hole?) from the needle in the leather itself.

[TwinOaks]

Oh, that.

Sharper needle, or dampen the back side of the leather. That flesh side looks like it has been pasted (glued) to make a nicer looking back. You might try lightly spraying the back to soften up the glue before sewing. Also, if you aren't doing so, be sure to use a leather point needle (I'm not familiar with the needles on your machine- I use 794) so the needle slices through the leather instead of punching a hole in it.

[Ferg]

Thanks for the input TwinOaks but I think the pictures must be deceiving or something. The thread (T135) is pulling tight and stitching as it should be and locking in the middle in those pictures. My concern or question deals rather with the cracking/puckering around the bottom puncture (exit hole?) from the needle in the leather itself.

I agree with TwinOaks on needles regarding them being leather needles. Also: I believe your needle is too large, go with a #20. You may want to try a TW in lieu of a RTW needle style.

ferg

Edited March 26, 2011 by 50 years leather

[Jovial]

I agree with TwinOaks on needles regarding them being leather needles. Also: I believe your needle is too large, go with a #20. You may want to try a TW in lieu of a RTW needle style.

ferg

Yeah for the consews 135x16s are all leather points the TW were actually a little worse than the RTW. They both do have the awl shape to the point. I'll do some experiments tomorrow and pull out my Digital SLR and Macro lens to photograph the stitching instead of using my phone. Hopefully I'll get to the bottom of this. I'll order in a pack of #20s as well and see if that helps out. Thanks for the help so far!

[TwinOaks]

Something you can try, using that same piece of leather, is to flip it and sew with the grain side facing down. That should give you an indication of whether it's the needles or the leather. Don't worry about the quality of the pics, they were just fine........a little large when uploaded, but that's easily dealt with. For most pics, we try to stay on a 800x600 scale so that it fits on the screen better. The viewer can always enlarge the image, but larger pic files take a good bit of time to load.

[Jovial]

Something you can try, using that same piece of leather, is to flip it and sew with the grain side facing down. That should give you an indication of whether it's the needles or the leather. Don't worry about the quality of the pics, they were just fine........a little large when uploaded, but that's easily dealt with. For most pics, we try to stay on a 800x600 scale so that it fits on the screen better. The viewer can always enlarge the image, but larger pic files take a good bit of time to load.

Haha will do. Sorry about the picture size anytime I see a picture under 1mb anymore I tend to stop paying attention. I suppose I got too used to my SLR's RAW files which average around 10-15mb per picture. Well I suppose my obscene monitor resolutions don't help either. Well at any rate I'm going to go sleep off the last of my "guys night out". LOL I tell my friends I'm getting too old for this but they just laugh at me and say I'm getting boring. Sunday is a good day for experimentation, right?

[Jovial]

Ok. The samples in this picture are all from the same piece of leather, brand new needles, and using T135 Bonded thread.

Needles: 135x16NW as per recommendation by Wizcrafts

135x16TRI

*Both types in Size 22.

Items marked Wet were dampened not soaked. Almost as if I was casing the leather for tooling.

Links have been provided for convenience to both the products used and original forum thread here that got me on my way

For what it's worth a friend was looking at my attempts to figure this out yesterday and couldn't see what was bothering me about the stitches.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Jovial

[Ferg]

Ok. The samples in this picture are all from the same piece of leather, brand new needles, and using T135 Bonded thread.

Needles: 135x16NW as per recommendation by Wizcrafts

135x16TRI

*Both types in Size 22.

Items marked Wet were dampened not soaked. Almost as if I was casing the leather for tooling.

Links have been provided for convenience to both the products used and original forum thread here that got me on my way

For what it's worth a friend was looking at my attempts to figure this out yesterday and couldn't see what was bothering me about the stitches.

Someone that knows little about the art of sewing leather with a machine probably would not see a problem. That said, you have a problem with the size needle and/or style of needle. Wetting the leather to sew is balder dash. If you wet the leather you may get marks from anything and almost everything you do while sewing. Your machine is okay, the leather is okay, you have a problem with the needle style and size, plain and simple.

ferg

Make sure you study the information enclosed with this post in pdf format.

Sewing Machine Needles.pdf

Edited March 27, 2011 by 50 years leather

[Wizcrafts]

Someone that knows little about the art of sewing leather with a machine probably would not see a problem. That said, you have a problem with the size needle and/or style of needle. Wetting the leather to sew is balder dash. If you wet the leather you may get marks from anything and almost everything you do while sewing. Your machine is okay, the leather is okay, you have a problem with the needle style and size, plain and simple.

ferg

Amen!

If you really can't live with the bottom puckers, reduce the pressure on the pressor feet. If there is a pressor foot spring on top of the head, turn it counterclockwise, until it almost pops out. That is the point of minimum spring pressure. As long as the leather doesn't lift with the ascending needle, go with reduced top pressure. If the needle causes the leather to lift, increase the pressure until the leather stays put.

[Jovial]

Hmm I can live with it I just thought it was something that didn't belong in a finished product? I guess you could chalk it up to inexperience making a bigger deal out of something than it is. My main concern was that I wasn't doing something right. I tend to go a little nuts when my technique or methods are out of whack until I figure out what is going on. Too much "Procedure must be followed exactly or lots n' lots of money gets wasted" kind of thinking seeped in from my last job at a vaccine production place. If this is really a change needles and go with the flow kind of situation as it is starting to seem then I'll force myself to chill out until something blows up

Between that mentality and a drive to try creating something as amazing as what I see here daily, I probably got carried away.

Amen!

If you really can't live with the bottom puckers, reduce the pressure on the pressor feet. If there is a pressor foot spring on top of the head, turn it counterclockwise, until it almost pops out. That is the point of minimum spring pressure. As long as the leather doesn't lift with the ascending needle, go with reduced top pressure. If the needle causes the leather to lift, increase the pressure until the leather stays put.

If you guys wouldn't sell something with that puckering then I'll give it a shot. Otherwise I'll probably call this case closed and file that bit of information away in ye' old sieve. Thanks for that!

[AndyL1]

Ferg,

Thanks a ton for that PDF explaining needle sizes and what they do. I have this problem when sewing up mu veg-tan too. I'm studying this now so I can get better at sewing as well. Great info!

Do you happen to have something similar that explains needle/thread combinations?

Cheers,

Andy

[particle]

I agree with 50 Years Leather - do not case the leather prior to sewing. You want less tracks and pucker, not more. Even if casing the leather minimized the pucker, it'll increase the tracks - the presser foot will basically be 'tooling' the leather, making additional impressions with every stitch. Instead, when you're done sewing, dampen the leather along the stitch line, then rub over the stitches with a bone folder to close the stitch back up.

[TwinOaks]

The whole reason I mentioned wetting the leather (and I didn't mean full casing) was because the back of that piece of leather looked like it was pasted. I was curious if the pasting was creating a hard 'film' on the leather resulting in the blowout.

Jovial- Are you by chance running a smoothing tool over the stitches after you're done?

[Jovial]

The whole reason I mentioned wetting the leather (and I didn't mean full casing) was because the back of that piece of leather looked like it was pasted. I was curious if the pasting was creating a hard 'film' on the leather resulting in the blowout.

Jovial- Are you by chance running a smoothing tool over the stitches after you're done?

I didn't full case it. Just sort of took a damp paper towel and did a quick wipe along the stitch line i was going to test on. It was more than enough to mash up the leather though. I knew that it was something you suggested to see if it was the pasting and was the reason I did it. I was following your logic even though, now that I read back, it looks like I was taking it in the wrong direction. And no I have not been running any smoothing tools over the stitches. Is that normal to do? It makes sense now that I think about it and I feel like a newbie for not having thought of it.

[albane]

Anyone know whats up with my bottom stitches? I had a topic before and was told that a reverse twist needle would take care of my puckering on the bottom stitches but.... it doesn't really look any better.

Since I seem to still be missing something I will throw myself upon the mercy of my betters and ask for help.

I know I need to change out the feet for something without teeth to clear up those marks but I need to find a place online that sells them first.

My setup is a Consew 206RB-1 using the 135x16NW size 22 Needles. Photo order is Top, Bottom respectively.

Jovial,

I see three problems:

1)to much presser foot pressure. evident by the scratches in photo 1

2) incorrect needle choice for the textile / equipment configuration

3) equipment configuration problem... the hole in the feed dog or throat plate is to big and off center relating to the center of the needle evident by the bubble on the side of the needle hole flesh side of your photo. This is what happens to a machine when it has been used with large thread and needle combo.

recommend

less presser foot pressure

leather point needle

replace feed dog or throat plate and maintain min clearance between needle and hole in aforementioned parts.

adjusting the presser foot pressure is a simple adjustment that will have no cost.

needles are cheep

feed dog and the installation my be a few bucks

in my opinion is the underside of the work piece only madders if it will be exposed and if it becomes un sightly i would change the needle, adjust the presser foot and leave the rest alone.

good luck,

[neelsaddlery]

The stitching does not look that bad from what I see in the photo. The biggest issue that I see from what you sent in the photo is that it looks like the stitches on the back side of the material seem to be a bit zigzagged, or not in center. You may want to try switching needle points. I think you mentioned you were using an RTW, LR, or TW point. These can definitely make the stitch appear offset, or slight zigzagged. The impression that I see on the back of the leather is caused by the hole in the feed dog. Best thing to do to get rid of this is to not case the leather prior to sewing, and then back off a lot on presser foot tension. This will have the affect of not forcing the leather down into the hole. Another thing to do is to check how high the feed dog is rising above the level of the needle plate when the machine is sewing. Really should not be up above the level of the plate by more than about 1/32 to 1/16 tops. If it is more than that, I would adjust it down.

For needle size, if you are using a size 138 thread, then a size 22 needle is perfect. The size 20 may be a be a bit small, and may make the thread fray a bit.

Try using a 135X16 Schmetz needle in "S" point. Folks use these needles a lot if they want a perfectly straight stitch.

You can also check the feed dog alignment to see if it is tracking straight in the slot of the needle plate. If it is not, then this can cause an issue with offset stitching.

Another thing you might want to do is increase the top thread tension a bit. You mentioned that the thread on the backside seems to be puckering a bit. If this is the case, it could be a issue with either too little top thread tension, or too much bobbin thread tension.

Hope these things are of some help to you.

[Jovial]

Ok, Thanks entirely to everyone's advice and pointers I have been able to get things looking rather nice, I think. I adjusted the foot pressure and flattened my stitches out with a smoothing tool, and tweaked my tensions slightly.

For posterity's sake when I had made all of these changes I went back to the trial piece I showed pictures of in my very first post of this thread and stitched in between the two rows. The scrap was flipped so that i could properly show contrast without it being affected by the previous problem stitches.

I do have a set of smooth feet to change over to then, I just wanted to keep the equipment the same for the sake of comparison.

Thanks again! I will be looking into a set of smaller needles just to try it out (and because I currently only have one size, lol).

[moosetrck1]

Jovial, did you figure out the solution to minimizing the pucker on the backside/bottom stitch in practice? If yes, can you attach pics and explain what adjustments you had to make?

My top stitches look amazing, but the bottom stitches are flat (instead of having a nice curved taper on each terminal of the stitch). The holes in the backside are puckered out because of the stab of the needle. Are these back stitch characteristics just inherent to sewing leather on a machine?

Here's an example of my ugly back stitches... http://cl.ly/image/333s1N0Y3E0K

Ugly back stitching is the most frustrating aspect of sewing leather on a machine, because it complicates everything. When I'm putting together a pattern I always have to plan for how I'm going to deal with that ugly bottom stitch! Sometimes I want to sew with the pretty side down (sueded part up), when I'm trying to sew a pocket to the inside of a bag — but I know if I do so I will be risking having an ugly bottom stitch on the outside of my bag!

Hand sewing has crossed my mind, but it's very inefficient. It is the ultimate solution to having full control over stitch quality though...

By the way, I sew on a Juki 563 (unison feed).

Edited July 7, 2013 by moosetrck1

[Trox]

With one layer leather and a big needle this will happen. The needle punches the material down and you will have these puncture marks, thats normal. A smooth hammering of the backside will take care of it. With lined leather you will avoid it. Its also harder to conceal the thread knot in the middle with heavy thread, size it down and use a leather needle (LR or other point). You can of course try more thread tension, then again an upholstery class machine do not have as much tension as big stitcher has. Use a needle that cuts instead of punching like a LR and you will have a much better result.

Tor

[Sponge]

I also am curious about needle and thread size if anyone else has any info regarding what size needle to use with what size thread. Also what size thread for what thickness of leather too