Branded Chinese Machines

[amuckart]

Something I've read in a few posts in the archives of this forum is that the big advantage of the machines sold by the likes of Artisan, Cobra and CowBoy compared to other Chinese import machines is that a lot checking and tuning gets done on them before they get sent to the end customer.

Is that still the case? I ask because I've got a friend with a machine received direct from the factory that builds machines sold by one of the popular retailers on here. I don't know who they purchased it through and I won't mention the brand, but my friend was quite unhappy with it as-received and said it needed an almost total rebuild before it performed well.

I have no doubt that the quality of the tuned and tested machines from the US vendors is great, but given the additional costs of getting a machine from the USA to NZ compared to getting it shipped direct from China, and the distance from the vendors if I do need service/parts, I'm curious as to whether things have changed in the last couple or three years with the factory quality of the machines or whether I'd be better off going for something like a Highlead which is a lot more expensive but seems to have a good direct-from-factory reputation.

Having hit the cost/benefit wall trying to get my 45k rebuilt, I'm saving my pennies for a big cylinder-arm machine, but I'm also interested in how this applies to lighter-duty machines as well. Given a decent service manual I'm able to work on machines just fine, but when it comes to things like this I want to start out with something that will Just Work.

Cheers.

[KAYAK45]

I can see the pickle your in Mate. From China to California and Back to NZ, just to have a lad look it over, thread and needle and test sew. I'm seasick already.

I'll bet, and I don't speak for anybody, I'll bet one of our member dealers could talk you through the set up.

Wow!. I won't bet... YOU CAN! LOL

As for the service they provide? Yes it is worth it.

Oh, and you want a "decent service manual"..NO WAY. If'n I had to rely on the chinese manual I got, I wouldn't be able to thread the darn thing. The other 20/so pictures and instructions and hints saved my tooche.

But still these things can be overcome in this age of communications, e-mAILS AND SUCH.

Buy the machine through one of our members,. Talk to THEM about direct shipping and setup.

All but one of them is a good guy. Wanta know which one. I AINT TALKING. lollol

kEVIN

[amuckart]

Setup isn't a problem, I can take care of that easily. I'm talking about whether the machines need actual remedial engineering work these days before they're sent to end customers, or whether they're good straight from the factory.

If the value proposition of buying a machine from one of the member vendors here is a re-engineered machine then it's something I'll think about, but If I order through them and get something drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, then it's a far less compelling proposition.

I'm asking the questions here, in a public forum, so that the information goes into the archives and other people outside of the USA can get the information too.

[Wizcrafts]

Amuckart;

I know that the dealers of both Cobra and Cowboy branded machines spend a considerable amount of time adjusting the machines they get from China. Some are in better working condition than others, when unboxed, but none should be drop-shipped to end users direct from the boat.. Steve Tayrien and Bob Kovar both put in all the time it takes to make sure that the machines they ship don't come right back as unworkable, or undesirable.

I recommend that you contact these dealers and express your concerns to them. See what kind of deal you can get. Maybe they will go over them with a fine toothbrush for you. Once properly inspected and adjusted these machines should last a long, long time.

[TwinOaks]

The machine heads are industrial/commercial heads, designed for factory work. As such, they're probably set up at the factory to run at 2000spm or faster. The suppliers of the machines do alter things a bit to handle slower speeds and increase the torque. Since I'm not a stitcher mechanic, I won't try to get into specifics. The short answer is YES, there's a good bit that they do to them, and for the second part - is the service worth it? Well, how much value do you put in the ability to call one of them on their personal cell and have them diagnose and help you fix your machine at 9 p.m. on a weekend?

[amuckart]

TwinOaks, 9pm on a Saturday here is 5am in Toledo and Toronto. This is the issue, by dint of the timezones alone I'm not going to be able to leverage the services of the vendors in the USA and Canada the same way people more locally can, and shipping something back to them to get worked on is right out, so the whole set of considerations is different than for someone in the USA or Canada.

[BrianBoyles]

I would say after reading your last post to contact the dealers directly and ask what they actually do to the machine before it ships to you.

Edited July 5, 2011 by BrianBoyles

[amuckart]

Just to stave off the inevitable torrent of responses from people telling me to buy an Artisan or Cobra or Cowboy: I get it, I've read this forum extensively, and I've seen all the arguments for buying from the dealers time and time again and I think they're perfectly valid but there's one important point to consider:

I'm not "here in the US"

I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

The service that is so big a part of these dealer's value proposition is not accessible to people in my time zone the way it is to people maybe one or two hour's difference from the vendor, nor are parts so easily available. On top of that, shipping something of that size/weight and value is horrifically expensive, not to mention the customs charges and taxes that land on it (and the shipping costs) before customs will release it, so the pricing changes drastically.

I'm still interested in the answer to my original question about the ex-factory quality of the machines various people are re-branding and selling, because that's something I need to be able to take into account.

[Steven Kelley]

I thought I read somewhere here that there was a Cowboy dealer in Australia. If so, you might want to contact them. Not that I'm trying to push Cowboy over the other brands, but if there is a dealer in Australia that could be a solution for you.

[TwinOaks]

I'm not "here in the US", I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

I understand that you are a loooong way from the U.S., the comment was to convey that the dealers will go out of their way to provide the service that has earned them their reputations. I spoke with one of them (I think it was Neal from Neal's Saddlery) on the eve of a holiday several years ago. He apologized profusely that his signal was fading out and that we'd have to continue the call at a later time, but the chartered fishing boat he'd boarded while talking to me was getting too far away from shore to get a good signal. The guy was answering my questions while on his vacation. I've also had another dealer call me pretty early in my day, which is in the central time zone here in the U.S. That dealer (Cobra Steve) is on the west coast, 3 time zones away, and had made the time to get up very early to make the call. I've also spoken to him while he was driving a truck to a trade show. These guys have earned their reputations.

As to what the dealers are doing: Yes, they take a factory head and modify the drive mechanisms, primarily through a motor change and pulley ratio reducers. They also sew with the machine and tune it to the size thread and thickness of leather you specify. Though you will probably change it a few (thousand) times, the machine will be pretty close to "ready to sew" when you get it...as in "mount the head and motor, thread the needle, plug it in and you're ready". There's always some fine tuning of tensions required by the user, but these dealers do all they can to make it a simple process.

And yes, there has been a thread about a dealer in Oz for the Cowboy line. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. If anyone else knows where it is, please don't hesitate to go ahead and post it.

Also, I believe UKRay bought a Highlead machine from a dealer in the UK, facing similar shipping/customs issues that you are. He was able to acquire the materials to alter his machine from the dealers, and do the work himself. That depends, of course, on your ability to work on the machine, time to do so, etc. You might check with him and see what it took, whom he dealt with, and what procedures he followed.

[tonyc1]

I bought an Adler 205-370 from Richland Industrial Machines in Montana about 10 - 15 years ago. It was air freighted out here to Tasmania and I received it within a week. It has sewn an awful lot of thread and in that time I've only had to replace a bobbin case. It was all set up to go when it arrived and hasn't stopped and is used nearly every day. I did a costing on what it would cost to freight out here but didn't take into account that it would be on two pallets and all boxed up with 5/8" mdf. It was packed very, very well but the extra weight cost about $300 more than I had anticipated but even so, it was well worth it in the long run. I have no regrets.

Tony.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Yes it is worth the extra freight. Sending by sea is relatively inexpensive but the cost is paying the dock fees, customs agent eyc when it lands. I do not sell the sort of machine you want but you may have seen in a recent thread the work that goes into a bog standard walking foot machine for canvas.

What is wrong with the 45K? If parts prices are a killer then email me.

Something I've read in a few posts in the archives of this forum is that the big advantage of the machines sold by the likes of Artisan, Cobra and CowBoy compared to other Chinese import machines is that a lot checking and tuning gets done on them before they get sent to the end customer.

Is that still the case? I ask because I've got a friend with a machine received direct from the factory that builds machines sold by one of the popular retailers on here. I don't know who they purchased it through and I won't mention the brand, but my friend was quite unhappy with it as-received and said it needed an almost total rebuild before it performed well.

I have no doubt that the quality of the tuned and tested machines from the US vendors is great, but given the additional costs of getting a machine from the USA to NZ compared to getting it shipped direct from China, and the distance from the vendors if I do need service/parts, I'm curious as to whether things have changed in the last couple or three years with the factory quality of the machines or whether I'd be better off going for something like a Highlead which is a lot more expensive but seems to have a good direct-from-factory reputation.

Having hit the cost/benefit wall trying to get my 45k rebuilt, I'm saving my pennies for a big cylinder-arm machine, but I'm also interested in how this applies to lighter-duty machines as well. Given a decent service manual I'm able to work on machines just fine, but when it comes to things like this I want to start out with something that will Just Work.

Cheers.

[Cobra Steve]

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

Edited July 5, 2011 by Cobra Steve

[amuckart]

I understand that you are a loooong way from the U.S., the comment was to convey that the dealers will go out of their way to provide the service that has earned them their reputations.

From everything I've read on here, I have no doubt they will, but what I have discovered is the case with at least one of the popular vendors on here is that when you buy a machine from their guy in the USA you get a known-good well adjusted machine that's had a lot of work put into it to make it work the way their customers need it to, and you get legendary after-sales support. If you buy the same brand machine when you're in another country though, what you get is a machine shipped direct from their factory in China, with none of that value-add, none of the expectations of reliability that US buyers can rightly expect, and in the experience of at least one saddler I know, none of the aftermarket support when it doesn't work out of the box.

That discovery is the reason I started this thread, to find out if the ex-factory quality is up to a standard to make buying a machine shipped straight from China a safe bet for brands other than Highlead which has a good out-of-the-box reputation than other Chinese brands, but is several hundred US$/head more expensive.

And yes, there has been a thread about a dealer in Oz for the Cowboy line. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it. If anyone else knows where it is, please don't hesitate to go ahead and post it.

Also, I believe UKRay bought a Highlead machine from a dealer in the UK, facing similar shipping/customs issues that you are. He was able to acquire the materials to alter his machine from the dealers, and do the work himself. That depends, of course, on your ability to work on the machine, time to do so, etc. You might check with him and see what it took, whom he dealt with, and what procedures he followed.

I'll do that, thanks. I'm reasonably handy, I've completely stripped and reassembled machines before. I've got no problem with buying accessory sets from a US dealer and bolting them to a different brand machine if they'll fit (and this is an option I've explored). So long as it's fairly simple easy stuff that isn't going to add hundreds of dollars to the price of the machine. This one has got to Just Work, unlike my Pearson #6, which sits in the corner and gets worked on intermittently as and when I have time and enthusiasm (it'll be great when it's done though! Whenever that is )

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your reply here - and to my email inquiries also.

[jimsaddler]

Hi Al

I'll back-up what the others say about how the Machines are checked out and gone over when they arrive from China. As you know I'm in Australia and been a Saddler & Harness Maker for a long time. Over those years I've brought a great number of Heavy Industrial Sewing Machines for my Workshops and those I've helped establish. Might I say the virtually every Machine had to be tuned up. Oh yes Singer were the worst. Always a few days were involved in tune ups and getting broken parts replaced. Adler was better a few hours was normal but sometimes a lot more. Seiko 4 or 5 hours per Machine and the occasional Part needed. a Pro 2000 (Air freighted from US) took more than 4 days to get the problems sorted out and sewing for my Friend. The Cowboy 441 usually sews out of the box. If the others are similar they should be the same. But I still go over them in case of problem. What I am saying is that the Chinese Reputable Clones are a step above the Old names as far as out of the Box is concerned. That said though some Dealers just sell Machines on high profitability alone. I worked on one to-day. Odd size Studs and Screws Different to the original Juki 441. Looks like any other except for the Rough Paint work But doesn't tune up like the Good Clones. Took over 6 hours and different Tools to do a simple tune-up. Its a far cry from the quality of the Good Clones Artisan, Cobra, Cowboy and Ferdco. These have been developed properly for the Leather Worker, Saddler and Harness Maker. How do I know? I am one of the number of Tradesman advisers who put the sujestions in as to how to improve them. This advice has been based on Hands on experience of what the Trade wants. That is " a Machine that will perform every day with no major problems and will perform every job efficiently".

Note how the Fly Wheels are now Bigger (more torque and better Hand control)? My request to improve on the Little ones that were used and nipping Fingers.

Stainless Feet and Needle Plates, these don't leave Black stains on Damp Leather (Ferric Stains) like the Steel ones.

Vari Speed Servo Motors mounted at the front for ease of use of the Speed adjustment. The list is endless. I am proud of my association with my Chinese Engineer Friends who asked so many questions to me (several times per week) over the past years. Because they took notice of every little point.

Singer, Adler and the like didn't when asked ( Not possible the Accounts Manager always said). All they did was push up prices till they were unaffordable (last price I got from Adler for a 205 15 years ago was over $14.000 plus extra's) . So I switched to Seiko, Nice Machines, but if I wanted Changes I needed to order Big numbers. Along comes Bill! Please you tell me what Saddler & Harness Maker wants, I Make it. He did this for small numbers and we improved sales based on the improvements. Now we have access to far better quality Machines at far better prices. A lot of this has been achieved via Leatherworker.net. and the discussions here. Here in Australia we have young People getting a good start with an affordable Machine that will do all of their work. Previously they had to buy worn out second hand Machines at highly inflated prices and struggle to learn to repair them (if at all) so they gave up in disgust.

Sorry to go on like this Al.

I'm not a Dealer in Australia. I'm a Saddler & Harness Maker who proudly Distributes Cowboy Industrial Sewing Machines and is always there for the Phone or Email to sort out the requests for advice as you know.

By the way I got an old Pearson A1 with original Transfers in-tact (my old Bosses). Also a USMC Pilot and a Singer 97-10. These will keep me out of mischief for a while. Age is hurting so I only make Harness now in my spare time. Oh and join people up with New Machines that they need.

This is not a Sales pitch. It my opinion based on observance of some considerable length of time. Please Guys no more cutting throats and prices as you all have to make a living. The Leather Industry will suffer if we have to return to the days of Limited Knowledge Dealers and highly inflated Prices of pre the Good guys here on LW helping with good sound advice.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler. Childers.

Australia.

Just to stave off the inevitable torrent of responses from people telling me to buy an Artisan or Cobra or Cowboy: I get it, I've read this forum extensively, and I've seen all the arguments for buying from the dealers time and time again and I think they're perfectly valid but there's one important point to consider:

I'm not "here in the US"

I'm in New Zealand, 8,000 miles and 17 time zones away from the US.

I'm not asking who I should buy from, I'm asking whether the situation frequently mentioned in the archives where vendors are overhauling machines before shipping them out is still happening, or whether they've worked with the QA folk at the factories to get them up to spec at that end of the process so that when I get a quote and it's for a machine drop-shipped direct from the factory in China, with different branding on it, am I in fact getting the same thing as someone in America buying from the vendor after they've overhauled and checked out the machine?

The service that is so big a part of these dealer's value proposition is not accessible to people in my time zone the way it is to people maybe one or two hour's difference from the vendor, nor are parts so easily available. On top of that, shipping something of that size/weight and value is horrifically expensive, not to mention the customs charges and taxes that land on it (and the shipping costs) before customs will release it, so the pricing changes drastically.

I'm still interested in the answer to my original question about the ex-factory quality of the machines various people are re-branding and selling, because that's something I need to be able to take into account.

[Trox]

Steve is worth those extra dollars and miles.

Trox

Hello, I can only speak for myself regarding this issue. We spend at least 6 hours on each machine. We modify, set the different timings and sew each machine off with different leathers, thread and needles. After it passes these tests, we ship. If there is a problem with one of our machines, regardless of whose fault,(if any), we take care of it. It will not cost the customer anything except the time without it. This applies to anywhere in the world. We have a great reputation for service and we will NEVER jeopardize this. I personally stand behind our product, and always will. Thanks, Steve

[Singermania]

HI, I'm another Aussie with a few words to add about the old machines and the new Chinese models. I'm a collector that does a bit of buying and selling and my interest lies in the biggest machines I can find, mostly thats Singer, Adler and BUSMC. I love the old machines, not because they are any better but simply because that's how my mind works. I have a Singer 3-1 harness machine, 5-12 belt stitching machine, a number of Singer 132k6, various 7 class , 27,31,33 and an 11 book binding machine, Singer 11-20 long cylinder walking foot, 47KSV10 very large long arm walking foot zig zag sailmakers machine. There is an old Adler 20-20... looks a bit like a Singer 7 or 8 class and a couple of BUSMC machines (don't tell JIm Beaton) on the way. Can these machines be a bit fussy, yes, are they solid and built of the best metal.. yes. I looked into importing Chinese machines some time back and discovered from the factory salespeople that I could buy the same machine in a number of qualities... for example there is one quality (not so good) that they sell to their home markets, then there is a step up that they sell to Europe, the US and Australasia (under various names) and then there is the top quality (OEM) that they produce to be branded for the likes of Consew, Juki and so on and must meet their requirements. So its not fair to say all Chinese machines have rough castings, poor paint, bearings and tolerances, it just depends on what version you buy, they really can be the best of beasts, as Jim will concur. I love my old machines, I love to go out into my garage and look at them, assuming I can actually get into the garage! and love to search for parts and information, but I would also like to steal the reverse functions off the new machines and some of the other improvements that Jim has been instrumental in making.

There's room for all of us and all machines, if its beautifully made, is great quality then it will become a classic like the Pilot, the Pearson #6, the Singer 7 class etc.

Best Regards Steve Bonnett

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

HI, I'm another Aussie with a few words to add about the old machines and the new Chinese models. I'm a collector that does a bit of buying and selling and my interest lies in the biggest machines I can find, mostly thats Singer, Adler and BUSMC. I love the old machines, not because they are any better but simply because that's how my mind works. I have a Singer 3-1 harness machine, 5-12 belt stitching machine, a number of Singer 132k6, various 7 class , 27,31,33 and an 11 book binding machine, Singer 11-20 long cylinder walking foot, 47KSV10 very large long arm walking foot zig zag sailmakers machine. There is an old Adler 20-20... looks a bit like a Singer 7 or 8 class and a couple of BUSMC machines (don't tell JIm Beaton) on the way. Can these machines be a bit fussy, yes, are they solid and built of the best metal.. yes. I looked into importing Chinese machines some time back and discovered from the factory salespeople that I could buy the same machine in a number of qualities... for example there is one quality (not so good) that they sell to their home markets, then there is a step up that they sell to Europe, the US and Australasia (under various names) and then there is the top quality (OEM) that they produce to be branded for the likes of Consew, Juki and so on and must meet their requirements. So its not fair to say all Chinese machines have rough castings, poor paint, bearings and tolerances, it just depends on what version you buy, they really can be the best of beasts, as Jim will concur. I love my old machines, I love to go out into my garage and look at them, assuming I can actually get into the garage! and love to search for parts and information, but I would also like to steal the reverse functions off the new machines and some of the other improvements that Jim has been instrumental in making.

There's room for all of us and all machines, if its beautifully made, is great quality then it will become a classic like the Pilot, the Pearson #6, the Singer 7 class etc.

Best Regards Steve Bonnett

[Art]

Hi Darren,

As I was approaching the big 60, I had everything from 7s to 97s. I love old iron, but moving it is a terror anymore. Kind of solved that problem by unloading most of it. Now I have turned my attention to 221s, 222s, 301As and the like, much more fun and the wife likes them too. I still have a lot of Chinese iron that I use regularly, and just keep my hand in it a couple of Landis 12s, and an old Repco Model A chain stitcher that is by far either the heaviest or more likely the most awkward thing ever developed (well other than the clicker, but that lives on a steel pallet and a pallet jack works wonders). I guess what I (now at 62) am getting at is, the older you get, the heavier they get.

Art

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

[stanly]

Guessing you looked at this dealer and they failed to meet your requirments in some way?

I know that is 16hr trip, still it's closer than Calif.

Sugar Sewing Machine Ltd

• 03-341 2157
• 279 Riccarton Rd Christchurch 8041

Edited July 19, 2011 by stanly

[Singermania]

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

HI, NIce to hear from you, the book factory junk pile sounds like a very attractive place to a scrounger like me. Even if you have no immed use for a machine just saving it for a later time or generation is worthwhile. I wasn't aware of the Japanese machine, Singer did the 11 class that look like a slim line 7 class in cylinder form. The 11.-24 is pretty long, maybe 30 inches. Best Regards STeve

[Singermania]

Guessing you looked at this dealer and they failed to meet your requirments in some way?

I know that is 16hr trip, still it's closer than Calif.

Sugar Sewing Machine Ltd

• 03-341 2157
• 279 Riccarton Rd Christchurch 8041

HI, well I'm only a collector and buy and sell a bit to fill a void (and to make space). I decided not to go the importing route of new machines as it meant setting up sales and workshop facilities and being on call 24-7 and I'm just one man. So I buy what appeals to me, restore it and then something else has to go, I am available to help if things go wrong, I find the manuals and spares etc and pass on the info. Sometimes a machine is working perfectly and then I ship it and it wont go at its destination, so even with the best of prepping, things change, tensions alter etc so I have to sort out these things if needed. Best Regards Steve

[jsmith]

Yes you can settup a machine yourself. That said; before I found this sight and a few publications I bought a new industrial machine from a local sewing shop its the same machine as the 618's out there. However I had to buy/install a speed reducer and work out timing as well as other small issues,I've spent a coupla hundred $ more than the equivelent machine from a dealer who specializes in leather machines(including shipping). I'll buy from Steve,let them do the tuning.

I get enough mechanic time on my Union lock LOL

Jeff

[Leather Guru]

Hello you guys,

I'm gonna jump into this discussion and hope I'll give you some good info.

I have 8 sewing machines and they are Pfaffs and Adlers and they were used when I bought them. Some were in good order and some were abused. I had to adjust almost all of those babies.

The adjustments are in a way complex but completely within anybody's capacity if you posses the minimum of mechanical skills The important things are: the maximum depth of the needle travel and the moment that the hook passes to take the thread. The hook should arrive at the needle as the needle begins to go up between 2-3mm depending on the machine.The hole in the needle should be below the point of the hook about 4 mm . You will see on the needle a sculpted area and the point of the hook should pass in the middle of that area as the needle has started it's upward movement. If you have an electronic motor the stopping point when the needle is in the down position is also very important . Make sure that the hook has taken the needle thread, if it doesn't you can experience missed stitches especially when turning corners.

I recently bought a Chinese clone and the motor is controlled by computer. I had a hell of a time adjusting the needle up and needle down position as the instruction manual was impossible to understand. And, the machine itself was not the same quality as an Adler. I don't know if you can order different styles of feet but there are left handed, right handed and double plus other kinds and you will need these to do a variety of work.

The tension screw on the bobbin case has much more influence than the screw on the machine head. You will almost have to change the tension on all the the different kinds of leather and thicknesses. Try out a piece of leather before you tackle the work

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I just want to make sure I'munderstanding and reading this thread correctly;

Outof the box untouched factory direct brand name Chinese equipment is BETTER today than out of the box factory direct Pfaff, Durkopp Adler and Singer? I'm reading comparisons for used German, Japanese & American made equipment vs. new out of the box brand names from China, am I correct?

The ONLY reason I'm asking this is because I feel the original question of this thread is not being adequately responded to, and that is "What machine new out of the box factory direct is going to work."

I know a machine is only as strong as who is setting it up (stand included) and supporting it, but that was not the question on the table. Not everybody has a sewing machine dealer who lives on thier block, so I do understand the basis of the question.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing