Branded Chinese Machines

[Singermania]

Hey Steve, I've seen some of your wonders on the net and must say I drool over most of them. A local boot factory has a BUSM outsole stitcher sitting in their junk pile right now and I am trying to justify approaching them about it - I will certainly try for the Fortuna skiver - as I know I will probably never find a customer for it. Another wonder I saw in my travels was a Japanese built 30" cylinder bed machine loosely based on a Singer 7. So much heavy iron, so little space.

HI, NIce to hear from you, the book factory junk pile sounds like a very attractive place to a scrounger like me. Even if you have no immed use for a machine just saving it for a later time or generation is worthwhile. I wasn't aware of the Japanese machine, Singer did the 11 class that look like a slim line 7 class in cylinder form. The 11.-24 is pretty long, maybe 30 inches. Best Regards STeve

[Singermania]

Guessing you looked at this dealer and they failed to meet your requirments in some way?

I know that is 16hr trip, still it's closer than Calif.

Sugar Sewing Machine Ltd

• 03-341 2157
• 279 Riccarton Rd Christchurch 8041

HI, well I'm only a collector and buy and sell a bit to fill a void (and to make space). I decided not to go the importing route of new machines as it meant setting up sales and workshop facilities and being on call 24-7 and I'm just one man. So I buy what appeals to me, restore it and then something else has to go, I am available to help if things go wrong, I find the manuals and spares etc and pass on the info. Sometimes a machine is working perfectly and then I ship it and it wont go at its destination, so even with the best of prepping, things change, tensions alter etc so I have to sort out these things if needed. Best Regards Steve

[jsmith]

Yes you can settup a machine yourself. That said; before I found this sight and a few publications I bought a new industrial machine from a local sewing shop its the same machine as the 618's out there. However I had to buy/install a speed reducer and work out timing as well as other small issues,I've spent a coupla hundred $ more than the equivelent machine from a dealer who specializes in leather machines(including shipping). I'll buy from Steve,let them do the tuning.

I get enough mechanic time on my Union lock LOL

Jeff

[Leather Guru]

Hello you guys,

I'm gonna jump into this discussion and hope I'll give you some good info.

I have 8 sewing machines and they are Pfaffs and Adlers and they were used when I bought them. Some were in good order and some were abused. I had to adjust almost all of those babies.

The adjustments are in a way complex but completely within anybody's capacity if you posses the minimum of mechanical skills The important things are: the maximum depth of the needle travel and the moment that the hook passes to take the thread. The hook should arrive at the needle as the needle begins to go up between 2-3mm depending on the machine.The hole in the needle should be below the point of the hook about 4 mm . You will see on the needle a sculpted area and the point of the hook should pass in the middle of that area as the needle has started it's upward movement. If you have an electronic motor the stopping point when the needle is in the down position is also very important . Make sure that the hook has taken the needle thread, if it doesn't you can experience missed stitches especially when turning corners.

I recently bought a Chinese clone and the motor is controlled by computer. I had a hell of a time adjusting the needle up and needle down position as the instruction manual was impossible to understand. And, the machine itself was not the same quality as an Adler. I don't know if you can order different styles of feet but there are left handed, right handed and double plus other kinds and you will need these to do a variety of work.

The tension screw on the bobbin case has much more influence than the screw on the machine head. You will almost have to change the tension on all the the different kinds of leather and thicknesses. Try out a piece of leather before you tackle the work

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I just want to make sure I'munderstanding and reading this thread correctly;

Outof the box untouched factory direct brand name Chinese equipment is BETTER today than out of the box factory direct Pfaff, Durkopp Adler and Singer? I'm reading comparisons for used German, Japanese & American made equipment vs. new out of the box brand names from China, am I correct?

The ONLY reason I'm asking this is because I feel the original question of this thread is not being adequately responded to, and that is "What machine new out of the box factory direct is going to work."

I know a machine is only as strong as who is setting it up (stand included) and supporting it, but that was not the question on the table. Not everybody has a sewing machine dealer who lives on thier block, so I do understand the basis of the question.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Singermania]

HI Greg,

You are right I was off thread, I was responding to points being made later in the topic.

I only ocassionally sell a new machine, sometimes they work straight out of the box sometimes they don't. But that's to do with many factors, like the material and thread that it was originally set up for or not set up at all. Other things happen in transit, I have machines running perfectly here, leave a large piece of cloth stitched half way thru under the foot and it gets to the other end and wont sew... tensions move, things get out of whack...not every time, but just sometimes.... I can't say that one brand or one country of origin is going to do that more or not.

So sorry to confuse the issue or cast clouds on anyones way of earning a living. My own firm belief is that there are varying qualities of Chinese machines in the same model. Whether they run straight out of the box I can't say. What I can tell you is that I import a good number of used, old, big Singers machines from the UK and USA.... like the 97-10, 144W305, 132K6, 45K, 7 class, 47k1 etc, very often they have material under the foot and thread hanging off them (so the person, me, at the other end knows how to thread it) and I find almost without exception that these machines sew straight out of the crate.

Does anyone know anything about Singer 3 class machines.??

Hope that helps, sorry again for getting off topic.

Best Regards Steve

I just want to make sure I'munderstanding and reading this thread correctly;

Outof the box untouched factory direct brand name Chinese equipment is BETTER today than out of the box factory direct Pfaff, Durkopp Adler and Singer? I'm reading comparisons for used German, Japanese & American made equipment vs. new out of the box brand names from China, am I correct?

The ONLY reason I'm asking this is because I feel the original question of this thread is not being adequately responded to, and that is "What machine new out of the box factory direct is going to work."

I know a machine is only as strong as who is setting it up (stand included) and supporting it, but that was not the question on the table. Not everybody has a sewing machine dealer who lives on thier block, so I do understand the basis of the question.

[amuckart]

Thanks Gregg, you're right about my original question, and my circumstance.

I've got some second hand industrials, Singers, a Seiko flatbed, a Pfaff 35-4, a #6 Pearson, a Pedersen outsoler, and I've got access to good motors at a price I'm willing to pay (refurbed Quick Rotan), and okay motors at half that. I can weld, so if it really comes down to it I can build a pedestal stand.

What I don't have in New Zealand is a second-hand market for 441 or 205 type machines. What's left of the NZ saddlery industry seems to run on Pearson #6s and ancient Adler 205s, and you pretty much have to wait for someone to die before you can get your hands one one of those. NZ being a small place with a culture of keeping machines running way way after they should have died and never throwing anything away means that the second-hand machines that make it onto our local ebay equivalent are often quite worn out.

This means I'm after something new, but lacking the budget to get a new Juki or Seiko (for that money I'll buy a rebuilt Campbell from Dan) I'm looking at Chinese clones. I know someone who bought a machine from a brand that's popular on this board that not only didn't sew out of the box, it needed a near complete rebuild to work almost acceptably. Fortunately they had access to a friendly local machinist or they'd have been left with a multi-thousand dollar boat anchor. What that taught me is that it's the person you buy the machine from, not the brand on it that's important. I don't mind taking a punt on a second-hand machine that hasn't cost me a lot and might or might not sew without a whole lot of work and spare parts, but if I'm going to buy a new machine it has to Just Work.

Now, I could get Steve or Bob to ship me a machine from the USA, but the shipping and customs charges add enough to make that proposition unappealing compared to, say, buying a Highlead which are considered expensive but come with a good out-of-the-box reputation and head-only are actually cheaper than, say, a Cobra class 4 head from Steve by the time it's been shipped here from the US. Unless I luck into a good used 441 clone I'll probably end up going the Highlead route, just for cost efficiency.

Cheers.

[CowboyBob]

Steve,

Your asking about a Singer 3,I have a few myself along with it's little brother & sister machine.

I did have the 3 sewing alittle but the tension seemed to be a problem.

Bob

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I'll put my two cents in, and try to tackle this question. Allow me to say up front that this is not hard and fast rule, 100% accurate, but a general overview of how equipment is showing up new out of the box.

I don't want to go into a history lesson taking things way back 30 years the way things were 'back in the day' that have little to no bearing on today's World, but we do have to have an idea of where we are coming from.

Lets start about twelve years ago, before the real boom of Chinese machines coming in. Almost the majority of market was dominated byJapanese and German made machines. American made products were and are still part of the picture. Taiwan is also part of the picture,not to leave anybody out and before someone wants to publicly flog me. Let me say this; when they when the first Japanese machines first starting coming in, they DID have problems back in the mid to late '60s. But, they corrected them, they made improvements to design and manufacturing. The German stuff was a bit ahead of the curve new. Both ever since have been very stable, and consistent. The difference between a good and bad machine was almost indistinguishable; they were all really good. And tey are today, with good quality control.

Now, with the Chinese, over the past eight years with a lot of machines coming in and being made,factories popping up left and right, it's is a mixed bag to say the least; quality is all over the place. There really is A, B, C quality, with different price points. Good machines may work out ofthe box, or need some setup, poor quality is kind of like "why did they even bother to put this into a box and send it?"

Furthermore, some machine have the same problems out of the box they did eight years ago. There is spotty stability, or consistency; you can get a really good machine one time, the next time, you may need to spend quite a bit of time to get the machine properly setup. Often, as clearly stated all over the place here andon this thread, a great deal of setup and replacing new parts with good new parts is required if you are a dealer who stands behind your warranty.

So, the gist of all of this; do you stand a better chance with out of the box machines from Germany / Czech Republic, Japan as opposed to say China? The short answer is yes, but it's really up to the individual on what they value and where thier money is going, the machine in question, their ability to means to setup properly, availbility ofreplacement parts, etc. Certain brand machines in some regions are easier to support than others. No hard and fast answers.

Hope this helps, and ANYBODY feel free to elaborate on this post, poke holes in it, insult my mother because I hurt someone's feelings or whatever else you may feel the need todo after reading this. This is assuming yuou even made it this far. Thanks!

Edited July 27, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Wizcrafts]

Hope this helps, and ANYBODY feel free to elaborate on this post, poke holes in it, insult my mother because I hurt someone's feelings or whatever else you may feel the need todo after reading this. This is assuming yuou even made it this far. Thanks!

What a refreshing display of honesty! Your revelations are much appreciated Greg. Perhaps, first time buyers of machines sold by our member dealers, yourself included, will have a better understanding of what it takes to get one of the clone machines into good working condition, for sewing thick leather with heavy thread.

The bottom line I take away from this is that it is not the nameplate on the machine, but, the dealer/mechanic who sets it up, that makes a particular leather sewing machine what it is. The dealers who stand behind their work and offer phone assistance to their buyers is something that cannot be replaced by a cheaper deal from a drop shipper.

This doesn't help our original poster though. All I can say about his dilemma is that the choices boil down to these:

1. Buy the best quality level machine direct from China and take your chances. If you have a machine shop you can make replacement parts.
2. Buy a machine that has been setup and modified to work by a leather machine dealer and pay the extra shipping and Customs cost, knowing that the machine will perform as desired for a longer time than might be the case, out of the box.

Once a 441 or 205 clone has been gone over and all loose screws tightened and timing set, as long as the box isn't dropped from a truck or loading dock crane, the machine should arrive in the same condition it was in when sent out to you. American and Canadian screw drivers are usually made of very good steel and can apply a lot of torque to screws that arrive loose from China. As to why their heavy sewing machines arrive out of time, with loose screws, rough castings and missing paint, only the Chinese builders know the answer to that question.That's probably where the A-B-C quality differences lie.