Vinegaroon Turns Gray?

[Jimbob]

Been experimenting with second and third batch of Vinegaroon.....came out great, test piece of 2-3 veg tan leather turned instantly black...after second soak it was jet black!!!!!!!!

Great!!!

Now, when it is dried out it suddenly shows grey blotches...oiled second piece, first jet black....then when dry sort of gray...what do I do wrong...

James

[Catchndreams]

Been experimenting with second and third batch of Vinegaroon.....came out great, test piece of 2-3 veg tan leather turned instantly black...after second soak it was jet black!!!!!!!!

Great!!!

Now, when it is dried out it suddenly shows grey blotches...oiled second piece, first jet black....then when dry sort of gray...what do I do wrong...

James

I have had the same problem. It's the leather. I oiled lightly again truned out OK.

Dennis

[BearMan]

Good Morning James,

It sounds like the leather was not oiled enough. The process works best when the leather is oiled after the Vinegaroon,,,, but,, I should also mention, that after the Vinegaroon has been applied & dried, the surface should be neutralized. I usually use a very dilute mixture of baking soda, that I "wash" the surface with to help neutralize with. This is an important step. Here is a link to a tutorial: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14946

I hope this help,,, Ed the"BearMan"

[Wishful]

I had same issue so oiled several times before it stayed black. It seems some leather may have more or less oils to begin with so may need to be refreshed more with the oil.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Wishful

[ChuckBurrows]

Whenever you get gray before oiling it generally means that there is a lack of tannins to react with the iron - to darken it prior to oiling (sometimes the oil will darken it enough but not always) use a brew of cold, strong black tea (ie. Liptons or what I use is the el cheapo Wally World brand). The tea can be applied either before or after the vinegar black is applied.

Let dry and if need be re-apply both then oil.........

[Jimbob]

Whenever you get gray before oiling it generally means that there is a lack of tannins to react with the iron - to darken it prior to oiling (sometimes the oil will darken it enough but not always) use a brew of cold, strong black tea (ie. Liptons or what I use is the el cheapo Wally World brand). The tea can be applied either before or after the vinegar black is applied.

Let dry and if need be re-apply both then oil.........

Ahhhhhhh, tannins....in tea...hmmmm, need to try that....thanks a bushell!!

James

[Darren8306]

Last summer I made some vinageroon for some wood projects. Then, I left it out, in an open jug, until mid-winter. There wasn't a lid, but I had a paintbrush stuck upside down in the opening, which would have kept a lot of the snow out.

When I decided to try it on leather, I went out and grabbed it. -30C outside so I had to thaw it out first. 

It yielded a grey instead of black. First, I used a colour dye over the grey, to rescue it. (photo inset/blue with runner)

After some drinks and internal arguments, I must have decided I liked it, because I just made a few more. The fresh batch of vinageroo also yielded grey.

Of course, because of this thread, I suspect tanins, and may soon try tea or tree-goiters to achieve the black I was after. I'll post results when I get that done. 

 

The leather I'm using is a budget-friendly choice, and maybe going cheap means you don't get as many tanins...In anay case, I like the grey so much, I'm starting to wonder what other mistakes I can commit.

[dikman]

Looks good, contrasts nicely with coloured thread.

[Darren8306]

I started a new side of leather, and the vinageroon produces a dark grey, nearly black.

 

Now I want to get the light grey back...anyone know how to remove tanins from veg-tan?

[dikman]

 Unfortunately it sounds like one of those unforeseen accidents with a happy outcome, never to be repeated.

[SUP]

On 1/14/2025 at 1:54 AM, Darren8306 said:

Now I want to get the light grey back...anyone know how to remove tanins from veg-tan?

You get tannins removers but if you want to remove the black color, it is iron tannate now, formed when the ferric acetate from the vinegaroon bonds to the tannins in the leather. I wonder if that bond can be broken.

To get that bluish grey color, you could try adding very little iron to vinegar, a diluted vinegaroon, so to speak.

Edited January 15 by SUP

[Darren8306]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:58 AM, SUP said:

You get tannins removers but if you want to remove the black color, it is iron tannate now, formed when the ferric acetate from the vinegaroon bonds to the tannins in the leather. I wonder if that bond can be broken.

To get that bluish grey color, you could try adding very little iron to vinegar, a diluted vinegaroon, so to speak.

Thanks, I might try that. I had a terribly naive accident trying the other way...

I thought I would add tannins to a belt, to get it to turn blacker. So I found a bowl which held the belt (and a couple keepers), put in a handful of tea bags, and poured in the boiling water. Then I let it steep awhile, and pulled it out.

Anyone like to purchase an irregular belt?

I'll try COLD tea, and some test samples. I guess it isn't good to run experiments while sipping gin with my sweethearts curling team...

[dikman]

Errr, maybe make up the tea solution first next time? Sorry, but I can't help laughing, you've got to admit it's funny! And yeah, perhaps go a bit easy on the gin.....

[Darren8306]

a well-stained belt turned out very nice, and I like the look a lot. 

 

Then, when I took off my pants, I could smell vinegar.

 

Not exactly the cologne one might choose for such an occasion...so I tried getting rid of the odour.

 

First attempt: soaking it in (cold!) coffee. it's drying on the counter now, smelling of vinegar. 

 

Any suggestions on what to try next? To get rid of the vinegar smell, I mean.

[fredk]

Try either diluted lemon juice or Bicarb of Soda

[SUP]

When dyeing with vinegaroon, I always rinse with running water immediately after I dip the leather in vinegaroon. That balances the pH and removes excess vinegar.

To get rid of the smell,  I just keep it in the open for a few days. It works for me when I use vinegar rinses on moldy leather.

[Beehive]

Maybe I can help. My first post on here. 

Tip #1, dye the leather a dark color before Vinegaroon.  You can use oil dye or the alcohol based. Go through the steps as you would. Let it dry. Once that happens. Follow it up with Vinegaroon. 

That's how you get the dark blacks. Brownish black, blueish black, red, yellow, green.

 

And until someone takes a PH reading. Forgo the baking soda. Because the Vinegaroon solution has converted the acid into another solution. And I've never seen ill effects from Vinegaroon.  

And as for the metallic smell. It goes away with a slight age. Laying the item in sunlight makes the process faster.

Edited January 24 by Beehive

[Darren8306]

On 1/23/2025 at 6:06 PM, fredk said:

Try either diluted lemon juice or Bicarb of Soda

I've tried baking soda stirred into cold water. Soaked it good, and then dried it. Being careful not to stretch it. 

On 1/23/2025 at 8:25 PM, SUP said:

When dyeing with vinegaroon, I always rinse with running water immediately after I dip the leather in vinegaroon. That balances the pH and removes excess vinegar.

To get rid of the smell,  I just keep it in the open for a few days. It works for me when I use vinegar rinses on moldy leather.

These were probably made with an under-ironed solution. I'm going to add steel until it stops dissolving, and let the batch air out indefinately.

14 hours ago, Beehive said:

Maybe I can help. My first post on here. 

Tip #1, dye the leather a dark color before Vinegaroon.  You can use oil dye or the alcohol based. Go through the steps as you would. Let it dry. Once that happens. Follow it up with Vinegaroon. 

That's how you get the dark blacks. Brownish black, blueish black, red, yellow, green.

 

And until someone takes a PH reading. Forgo the baking soda. Because the Vinegaroon solution has converted the acid into another solution. And I've never seen ill effects from Vinegaroon.  

And as for the metallic smell. It goes away with a slight age. Laying the item in sunlight makes the process faster.

I've been trying to avoid using dye. Just found out from a leather supplier in Alberta, that they aren't allowed to import the oil dyes anymore. Fumes were mentioned, but I have noticed it is tough to find good dyes here. 

Also, I just don't like a dye that can come off. For a wallet or belt, it should NEVER mark my clothes. It's one of the reasons I was so pleased with vinageroon - no DG paperwork, no import duty, no way for a bureaucrat to get another nibble...

I should try looking around the site here to see what other chemistry tricks have survived from leatherwork history. There may be other good colours available

 

Thanks everyone. I'm going to repeat the baking-soda bath on the other belt. Hopefully, it stays lighter gray, though when I oil it again (I oil after water each time) it may darken.

[SUP]

Actually, pH does matter. Approximations will do though.

Soaking in Baking soda might damage the leather. Just be careful you do not turn your leather too alkaline. Leather needs a pH of about 5, so a bit acidic. Household vinegar is 5%acetic acid and the pH of the vinegar is about 2.5. Rinsing the leather under running water, which will have a pH of about 7, should balance the pH out.  You don't need a pH-meter to determine that. Too alkaline a pH can damage the leather just as much as too acidic a pH.

 

 

 

[Beehive]

Now my curiosity is running wild. I'll dig out my PH test drops. The only PH of concern is the Vinegaroon solution. Measured after the solution is saturated with iron. Where the chemical conversion has stopped. Where no more iron can be dissolved in solution. 

Think of it like this. Vinegar is no longer an acid after contact with baking soda. Vinegar is no longer an acid when treated with iron. Water around here is quite alkaline. 7.4-.7.6. The city doesn't want pipe corrosion. And a neutral and stable 7.0 is a rare bird. 

My deal is there is a lot of monkey see, monkey do dealing with leather. And whoever came up with thinking a baking soda dunk is required. Never followed it up with an actual PH test of the solution before applied to leather. 

[Darren8306]

I didn't do any ph testing, but my vinegaroon was made with 10% acetic acid, and when the belt was finished, it smelled of vinegar. After a dunk in a solution of baking soda, then drying, the vinegar smell was greatly reduced.

 I'll wear this belt, so I guess I will find out if the leather is damaged.

Neutralizing the vinegaroon just before application willbe my next test. Makes a lot of sense, and hopefully reduces the odor.

I don't mind if there is a smell of vinegar when I drop my pants, but a younger man might have different goals and prioroties...

[SUP]

I agree that when one makes Vinegaroon, the pH will change as iron acetate forms. I also agree that the pH of tap water is never exactly 7. How can it be? It will have salts dissolved in it that will affect the pH. All of it is approximations, which works fine, really. It's a folk method, is it not? Used for generations, and working fine all through..

I  prefer not to use a baking soda dip after vinegaroon though That will be far more basic than tap water. I do not think that that basic a solution is needed, even if the vinegaroon is made with 10%acetic acid. A few more minutes of running water to remove the vinegaroon, maybe. After all, Vinegar mixes in water and will be easily rinsed off and that is all that is needed. The chemical reaction is between the iron acetate and the tannins. Running water also helps if the leather has also been re-tanned with tea etc. Otherwise, loose iron tannates rub off or bleed if the leather gets damp. 

Like I said, running water works for me.  I have used it Vinegeroon  for leather caps and no complaints about smell from the wearers. 

To each his own, though.