What Feed Dogs And Needle Plates To Get For A 441 Clone?

[amuckart]

Greetings all,

My search for a cylinder arm heavy stitcher is nearing its end with the discovery that the local Highlead importer has a second-hand Seiko CH-8B head in his warehouse. I haven't laid eyes on it yet but if it's in decent nick I'll buy it.

Working on the assumption that it will come set up for fabric, not leather, I'm going to need to get some feet, plates & feed dogs for it. I plan on using the machine for sheaths, cases, jacks, general heavy sewing and things where I need a needle right up at the end of the arm.

I have a bunch of questions about what I should get. Sadly "one of everything" isn't an option because I need money left over to build a pedestal stand and get a motor.

What the difference between the slotted needle plate v.s. smooth feed dogs is in terms of the kind of work they are used for; do I need both?

I want to be able to use this for case work so I'm going to get a right-toe foot. Should I also get a holster or stirrup plate for this sort of work, and if so, which?

What tasks are left-toe feet useful for?

Does anyone know of inline feet for this class of machine? Neither Cobra nor Toledo Industrial have them.

How important/useful is it to have a lube pot for sewing leather with this type of machine using bonded poly thread, and what's the best stuff to put in one?

Thanks.

[KAYAK45]

Your work site is WHERE ARE THE ELVES ?.!!! Buy a machine and you''ll find all the shop elves, working at nite and not cleaning up, as you ever wanted to see. LOLOL.

Wait until you have the machine and use it before you worry about lots of the accessories. Then and only then will you find the ones you NEED.

I bought them all with the original purchase of my machine because of BASKET PURCHASE pricing, but haven't used them all, or even know how!

Good luck!!

Kevin

[CowboyBob]

I don't want to rain on your parade but you really should try to buy a 441 Juki or clone.

I wouldn't recommend buying this machine to my knowledge there won't be any feet for it,it's to bad they didn't make this machine so the 441 feet would fit but maybe they had to make them different.The standard feet are rather wide so you'll have to grind one down if you need a narrower one,I've ordered them before & I think there around $50.00 US.

Bob

[bruce johnson]

I have a Ferdco and bought the bundled set when I bought it, and then got more. I use the stirrup plate quite a lot. It makes sewing gussets into casework much easier, especially sewing into and out of 90 degree corners. You swear a lot less than with the flat plate or holster plate. I use the left toe foot when I am sewing with a guide. I use the right toe foot whan I am sewing something with spots already set. I use the buckle feet a bit for getting close to hardware, and the holster plate gives me some clearance to tip a center bar buckle back out of the way some. I also use the right toe foot sometimes sewing next to raised area like on bucking rolls or leather covered wood picture frames. Sometimes on repair work that is a pretty narrow lip to sew, the right toe foot was off the leather. Ferdco makes a case and boot foot that is in line with the center presser foot and I bought that later - very handy. The only foot set up I haven't used much is the blanket foot. Just don't sew canvas or heavy fabric.

As far as the slotted plates and bottom feeddogs, mine doesn't have them. My Adler did, but I never had near the accessories for it I do for this one anyway.

I have a lube pot and use it for heavy or fast sewing. I don't use it all the time, but If I know I am going to be high speed sewing reins my needle will smoke if I don't. Same deal for slower sewing on repair work on harder leather. I use lexol in mine or some thread lube a guy gave me. I don't run the thread through the rubber gasket wipers though. No particular reason other than it takes time to thread it through. I run the thread out the hole in the top and before the thread guide loop. Between the hole and the thread loop, I stick a 1-1/2" cube piece of dry cellulose sponge with a slit partway through it for the thread. It stays in place there and wipes the excess off the thread. When it saturates the excess runs back into the hole or runs back down the thread. Every so often I might squeeze the excess back into the pot also or when I am done.

[amuckart]

I don't want to rain on your parade but you really should try to buy a 441 Juki or clone.

I wouldn't recommend buying this machine to my knowledge there won't be any feet for it,it's to bad they didn't make this machine so the 441 feet would fit but maybe they had to make them different.The standard feet are rather wide so you'll have to grind one down if you need a narrower one,I've ordered them before & I think there around $50.00 US.

Thanks for the heads-up. Can you tell me the difference between the Seiko feet and the other 441 clones? Does the Highlead take the same feet as other clones, and are the needle plates & feed dogs different too?

Is it just the attachment point, or is the whole arrangement of needle bar and presser foot bar different on the Seiko to others?

This particular Seiko is far cheaper (almost 2/3 less) than importing a clone will be which is why I'm interested in it, but that doesn't really help if it can't be made to do what I want.

Cheers.

[amuckart]

Bruce, thanks for that reply. Regardless of what flavour machine I end up with that really helps.

Cheers.

[CowboyBob]

The Highlead feet are them sam,the mounting on the Seiko is totally different than the 441's.

Also if you go to look at it push & pull on the needlebar & see how much play it has,they used to wear & get loose causing inconsistant stitch lengths.

Bob

[Wizcrafts]

Greetings all,

My search for a cylinder arm heavy stitcher is nearing its end with the discovery that the local Highlead importer has a second-hand Seiko CH-8B head in his warehouse. I haven't laid eyes on it yet but if it's in decent nick I'll buy it.

Working on the assumption that it will come set up for fabric, not leather, I'm going to need to get some feet, plates & feed dogs for it. I plan on using the machine for sheaths, cases, jacks, general heavy sewing and things where I need a needle right up at the end of the arm.

I have a bunch of questions about what I should get. Sadly "one of everything" isn't an option because I need money left over to build a pedestal stand and get a motor.

What the difference between the slotted needle plate v.s. smooth feed dogs is in terms of the kind of work they are used for; do I need both?

I want to be able to use this for case work so I'm going to get a right-toe foot. Should I also get a holster or stirrup plate for this sort of work, and if so, which?

What tasks are left-toe feet useful for?

Does anyone know of inline feet for this class of machine? Neither Cobra nor Toledo Industrial have them.

How important/useful is it to have a lube pot for sewing leather with this type of machine using bonded poly thread, and what's the best stuff to put in one?

Thanks.

Here is what a slotted plate looks like:

With this plate you can sew very narrow work and get an edge guide right up against the side of the material. If you have a standard feed dog in place, your edge guide will usually have to be outside the right edge of the dog. The slot in the standard throat plate is about 3/8" wide and an inch long. This leaves a lot of room for the tips of straps to fall into the front edge of the slot, unless the leather is very stiff.

The feed dog, whether smooth of with teeth, helps transport the leather and is responsible for adjusting the reverse stitch length, to a degree. When I sew without a feed dog, the reverse stitches don't always hit the same holes as forward sewing. Also, the stitch length is reduced at all settings of the lever, without a feed dog. I find that unless the leather is medium or soft temper, I need to move the stitch lever down a bit to maintain the same stitch length as with the feed dog.

A left toe presser foot is standard for sewing belts and straps around the perimeter. It allows you to move the edge guide in on the right, to maintain a straight edge at a fixed distance in. The feed dog itself may be the limiting factor for the edge guide, due to the inordinate width of the standard set. My friend bought a Cobra and had a machine shop make a narrower feed dog and throat plate for him. This allows him to sew with an edge guide uo close enough to have less than 1/8 inch stitchline from the edge. The standard dog and plate would move that out to almost 1/4". The workaround is to place a narrow washer under the edge guide, to raise the bottom of the roller above the plane of the feed dog.

About the plates that allow you to sew right up to the left side of the machine: you will have to choose between a holster plate, a stirrup plate, or a ground down slotted flat plate.

There is something you need to know, in advance, before you choose 3rd party presser feet. The so-called Harness Feet are all cutout in the mid-back, behind the toe or toes. A right toe foot will sit about 1/4" away from the center of the needle, on the right side. There is zero steel inline with the needle. Ditto for the left and double toe feet.

There are a couple of workable solutions to this problem. One is to have a custom foot cut from a suitable block of steel, with steel behind the toes, all the way across. The other solution would be to purchase a standard outer presser foot for an Adler 205 or Juki 441 and grind off unwanted material on the sides.

Bob Kovar did just that with some presser foot he had laying around and I have a photo of it. I call this a Pseudopod. It is a true inline presser foot set.

As for a standard 441 clone presser foot, here is what you will probably find in the carton, from China:

These feet both have teeth on the bottom, as does the standard feed dog.

As for the lube pot: it is only important if you feel it is helpful to run your dry thread through either silicon or oil. It will make it easier to penetrate the leather and pull up the knots.

I hope this helps somewhat.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[amuckart]

The Highlead feet are them sam,the mounting on the Seiko is totally different than the 441's.

Just to confirm, you're saying the Highlead feet are the same as the other 441 clones, and only the Seiko is the odd one out.

I don't have another 441 to compare to, so apologies if this is a dumb question; would it be feasible to have replacement needle bar and presser foot bars machined up to take 441 feet, or is the spacing completely different?

Also if you go to look at it push & pull on the needlebar & see how much play it has,they used to wear & get loose causing inconsistant stitch lengths.

I will. The fellow who has it is a well respected industrial machine mechanic locally, so I'll be getting him to walk me all through the machine before I hand over any money. There is an element of risk because it is head-only, so I can't see it sewing until I set it up, but for the price I'm willing to wear that if I can get feet that will do the job for me.

Thanks.

[amuckart]

Wiz: Thank you for that great explanation, it's great to have that context to go with the pictures.