Cleaning Leather With Oxalic Acid Crystals Or Lemon Juice

[LNLeather]

As previously mentioned in the Recent Status Updates - I decided to take this question to the forums and see if I could get your professional opinions please......

From what I have read here about cleaning leather – it seems like the majority choice here is to use the Oxalic Acid Crystals (diluted in water).

I had some leather with grey stains from an unknown source. My hardware store didn't have Oxalic Acid Crystals, so I ordered it online and while I was waiting, I kept reading (in a search for info here at leatherworker.net) and found that someone had used Lemon juice with very good results. I tried it and also was able to remove grey/black smudges and without any chemicals (Oxalic acid).

I googled MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the Oxalic Acid Crystals and what it says is a bit disturbing to me.

The MSDS is for the crystals and not a diluted solution, but the information seems important for safety and storage purposes.

It seems like it should be clearly labeled and kept in a Safe Place to avoid accidents…

Here is the link for the MSDS for Oxalic Acid Crystals that I found on line

Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS

and some of what it says... Section 4 seems especially important, as does Section 11... Although I do recommend the entire MSDS be read.

Section 4 First Aid Measures

May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation. Wash thoroughly after use. Keep container closed.

Section 11 Additional Information

DANGER!!! This material is very corrisive to the human body. Inhalation of dust or mist may cause irritation or burns to upper respiratory system, nose, mouth or throat. Ingestion may cause irritation or burns to mouth throat or stomach. Contact with skin or eyes may cause irritation or burns. Conditions aggravated/target organs: Persons with pre-existing eye, skin or respiratory conditions may be more susceptible.

So my question is what else do you use to clean leather other than Oxalic Acid Crystals?

I am wondering if anyone has experience with cleaning leather with lemon juice and how it turned out,

and if there were any problems or long term side effects to the leather.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts & opinions…

Edited September 23, 2011 by LNLeather

[arthurandersen]

As previously mentioned in the Recent Status Updates - I decided to take this question to the forums and see if I could get your professional opinions please......

From what I have read here about cleaning leather – it seems like the majority choice here is to use the Oxalic Acid Crystals (diluted in water).

I had some leather with grey stains from an unknown source. My hardware store didn't have Oxalic Acid Crystals, so I ordered it online and while I was waiting, I kept reading (in a search for info here at leatherworker.net) and found that someone had used Lemon juice with very good results. I tried it and also was able to remove grey/black smudges and without any chemicals (Oxalic acid).

I googled MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the Oxalic Acid Crystals and what it says is a bit disturbing to me.

The MSDS is for the crystals and not a diluted solution, but the information seems important for safety and storage purposes.

It seems like it should be clearly labeled and kept in a Safe Place to avoid accidents…

Here is the link for the MSDS for Oxalic Acid Crystals that I found on line

Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS

and some of what it says... Section 4 seems especially important, as does Section 11... Although I do recommend the entire MSDS be read.

Section 4 First Aid Measures

May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation. Wash thoroughly after use. Keep container closed.

Section 11 Additional Information

DANGER!!! This material is very corrisive to the human body. Inhalation of dust or mist may cause irritation or burns to upper respiratory system, nose, mouth or throat. Ingestion may cause irritation or burns to mouth throat or stomach. Contact with skin or eyes may cause irritation or burns. Conditions aggravated/target organs: Persons with pre-existing eye, skin or respiratory conditions may be more susceptible.

So my question is what else do you use to clean leather other than Oxalic Acid Crystals?

I am wondering if anyone has experience with cleaning leather with lemon juice and how it turned out,

and if there were any problems or long term side effects to the leather.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts & opinions…

Hi Cheryl;

I have always used Oxalic Acid in water. I always use disposable gloves whenever I apply dye, finish, Oxalic acid, anything to my leather goods. And am very careful to not breathe the fumes any longer than necessary. Never tried lemon juice so I will give that a try next time I need to cleanup stained leather. BTW you can usually get Oxalic acid crystals at a good pharmacy, and if they don't have them they can usually order them from their supplier for you. Maybe not the larger chain stores but the smaller Mom N Pop drug store that still value customer service.

Thanks for the Oxalic Acid info..

Arthur

[ferret]

Only ever used lemon juice for cleaning leather, it's cheap and easy to obtain. Does a good job with no harmfull effects on the leather. Can sting a bit if you get it in a cut or splash it in your eye, but otherwise no harmfull effects.

[Ferg]

Oxalic Acid has never been a problem for me. White vinegar diluted in water will obtain the same results as lemon juice. Vinegar seems to be a little stronger solution.

ferg

As previously mentioned in the Recent Status Updates - I decided to take this question to the forums and see if I could get your professional opinions please......

From what I have read here about cleaning leather – it seems like the majority choice here is to use the Oxalic Acid Crystals (diluted in water).

I had some leather with grey stains from an unknown source. My hardware store didn't have Oxalic Acid Crystals, so I ordered it online and while I was waiting, I kept reading (in a search for info here at leatherworker.net) and found that someone had used Lemon juice with very good results. I tried it and also was able to remove grey/black smudges and without any chemicals (Oxalic acid).

I googled MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the Oxalic Acid Crystals and what it says is a bit disturbing to me.

The MSDS is for the crystals and not a diluted solution, but the information seems important for safety and storage purposes.

It seems like it should be clearly labeled and kept in a Safe Place to avoid accidents…

Here is the link for the MSDS for Oxalic Acid Crystals that I found on line

Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS

and some of what it says... Section 4 seems especially important, as does Section 11... Although I do recommend the entire MSDS be read.

Section 4 First Aid Measures

May be fatal if inhaled, swallowed or absorbed thru the skin Avoid all contact. Use with adequate ventilation. Wash thoroughly after use. Keep container closed.

Section 11 Additional Information

DANGER!!! This material is very corrisive to the human body. Inhalation of dust or mist may cause irritation or burns to upper respiratory system, nose, mouth or throat. Ingestion may cause irritation or burns to mouth throat or stomach. Contact with skin or eyes may cause irritation or burns. Conditions aggravated/target organs: Persons with pre-existing eye, skin or respiratory conditions may be more susceptible.

So my question is what else do you use to clean leather other than Oxalic Acid Crystals?

I am wondering if anyone has experience with cleaning leather with lemon juice and how it turned out,

and if there were any problems or long term side effects to the leather.

I'd love to hear all your thoughts & opinions…

[Bard Skye]

I like the idea of using lemon juice / vinegar.

It's nice to be able to use something that's already around the house rather than having to purchase yet another special purpose product.

To say nothing of the potential health issues.

Thanks, guys.

[LNLeather]

arthurandersen

Posted 23 September 2011 - 04:33 AM

Hi Cheryl;

I have always used Oxalic Acid in water. I always use disposable gloves whenever I apply dye, finish, Oxalic acid, anything to my leather goods. And am very careful to not breathe the fumes any longer than necessary. Never tried lemon juice so I will give that a try next time I need to cleanup stained leather. BTW you can usually get Oxalic acid crystals at a good pharmacy, and if they don't have them they can usually order them from their supplier for you. Maybe not the larger chain stores but the smaller Mom N Pop drug store that still value customer servic

Thanks for the Oxalic Acid info..

Arthur

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Arthur

You are welcome! I am happy to be able to share the MSDS info.

Woopsi - I checked my link for the MSDS sheet for the Oxalic Acid Crystals and that link didn't work,

so here is one that will. Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS

As far as where to buy - I live on a small island, and quite often I can't find things I am looking for. Amazon had the best price for the Oxalic Acid Crystals, but Nothing was said about Safety Issues. I had tried to find it here on Vashon, at the local TV hardware store, but no one seemed to have heard of Oxalic Acid Crystals or Wood Bleach crystals. One of the supervisors showed me a can of liquid Wood Bleach but I didn't want to get that because no one here at LW.net had mentioned buying the liquid, so I would have no idea what that dilution ratio would be.

I am glad to hear you use the Oxalic Acid Crystals in a safe manner.

I know a lot of leather workers use it and I just hope everyone is aware of the Safety Issues...

Thanks so much for your comments

[LNLeather]

Only ever used lemon juice for cleaning leather, it's cheap and easy to obtain. Does a good job with no harmfull effects on the leather. Can sting a bit if you get it in a cut or splash it in your eye, but otherwise no harmfull effects.

Hi Ferret

Yes lemon juice does sting - yeoow

….but that can also happen when you are making salad dressing :-) (lemon juice+garlic & EVOO mmmmmmm yum)

Soooo, do you use the lemon juice full strength or diluted, and do you rinse the lemon juice off once the leather is clean?

Thank you so much for your comments

[LNLeather]

Oxalic Acid has never been a problem for me. White vinegar diluted in water will obtain the same results as lemon juice. Vinegar seems to be a little stronger solution.

ferg

Hi 50 years leather

Oooooh another good idea! I had not thought about vinegar…

I use it to clean windows and wood floors - I just wouldn't have thought of using it to clean leather.

But, that sounds like a very good idea. Thank you for mentioning that.

You say you dilute the vinegar? By how much, and do you rinse that solution off once the leather is clean?

Thank you so much for your comments

[LNLeather]

I like the idea of using lemon juice / vinegar.

It's nice to be able to use something that's already around the house rather than having to purchase yet another special purpose product.

To say nothing of the potential health issues.

Thanks, guys.

Hi Bard Skye

Mee too! All good points for sure!

*One of the reasons I started this subject up is because there are so many new folks joining every day…

I thought it would be good to bring up this subject again & let folks know about the

Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS before they buy it….. and to also discuss the alternatives.

The Possibility for Health issues or someone's animals or kids getting into the hazardous chemicals – makes if an easy choice for me.

Thank you so much for your comments

[Ferg]

Dilute 4 to 1, water to vinegar. Stubborn stains increase vinegar. Yes, it does need to be washed with clean water to neutralize the vinegar.

Make sure your leather has dried thoroughly before applying finishes and/or dye.

ferg

Hi 50 years leather

Oooooh another good idea! I had not thought about vinegar…

I use it to clean windows and wood floors - I just wouldn't have thought of using it to clean leather.

But, that sounds like a very good idea. Thank you for mentioning that.

You say you dilute the vinegar? By how much, and do you rinse that solution off once the leather is clean?

Thank you so much for your comments

[drphil]

Hi Bard Skye

Mee too! All good points for sure!

*One of the reasons I started this subject up is because there are so many new folks joining every day…

I thought it would be good to bring up this subject again & let folks know about the

Oxalic Acid Crystals MSDS before they buy it….. and to also discuss the alternatives.

The Possibility for Health issues or someone's animals or kids getting into the hazardous chemicals – makes if an easy choice for me.

Thank you so much for your comments

As I have mentioned before, do not put too much stock in what the MSDS says. The MSDSs are designed to inform people about any, all, potential, possible, might happen, might never happen effects of chemicals. While it is true that oxalic acid is more reactive and worse for your health than other compounds used to clean leather. it should not be looked at as worse for your health than other chemicals without much more experience with the compound itself. What I am saying is that it depends more on what you are reacting with, what concentration you are using, and how safe you are working with the chemical (proper protective equipment etc.).

As far as oxalic acid behing hazardous, I would say yes. Is lemon juice hazardous? Yes in the right situation. Take a look at the MSDS for table salt. Hazardous? You bet! Check it out:

"Precautions:

Keep locked up.. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested,

seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label. Keep away from incompatibles such as oxidizing

agents, acids"

Now consider the MSDS for some of the primary ingredients of lemon juice that are good for cleaning leather. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and citiric acid. Let me know if those scare you a little. Check out acetic acid from the vinegar. How about phosphoric acid in Coke.

One should not think of a chemical as being hazardous just because they don't recognize it easily. Many people get the idea that just because something does not occur naturally that it is especially hazardous. This is no more true than the reverse. As I mentioned in previous posts, snake venom is a naturally occurring product, that doesn't make it safe for me.

On another note, oxalic acid does occur naturally and in products you might eat. Take Rhubarb and spinach for example. The thing is, the oxalic acid is not as concentrated there as the crystals you might buy. Of course you should making a dilute solution with those crystals anyhow when cleaning your leather.

The overarching conclusion is to use chemicals (anything made of atoms) carefully and safely. Consult the MSDS, consult a chemist, consult anyone with experience and follow their reasoning. Better safe than sorry. Do not dismiss something as being more hazardous/less hazardous just because of your preference for "organic" or common products. I am using the term "organic" here in the common consumer sense which is almost completely at odds with the chemical definition of organic.

I would venture to guess that there are many more hazardous chemicals that are in your house that kids and pets could get into as well. Be safe and use common sense.

I would probably use vinegar to clean my leather as well, although I have no experience with cleaning leather. Anyone have any experience using other acids? Perhaps hydrochloric, or acetylsalicylic acid. I am inclined to think that dissolving a couple of aspirin tablets (mostly acetylsalicylic acid) in water might yield good results. I am very curious to know what the results are.

Dilute 4 to 1, water to vinegar. Stubborn stains increase vinegar. Yes, it does need to be washed with clean water to neutralize the vinegar.

Make sure your leather has dried thoroughly before applying finishes and/or dye.

ferg

And, while we are speaking "chemically" here it should be noted that water will not neutralize the vinegar it will only dilute it. Not that it is that too important. :-) I assume you would still have a little vinegar smell like 'rooned leather?

[Ferg]

You are correct, simply washing an object with water does not completely neutralize the vinegar but it does indeed dilute it to the extent that it offers no detrimental effects. As I said in my previous post, "Allow the leather to dry completely before applying finishes or dyes."

I can find a thousand things in everyday life that could hinder a person's health. Unfortunately today, folks are so immunized against so many things that we ate when I was a kid. They would probably kill half the population now.

Use common sense folks. I like to think most Leather folks are at least a little smarter than the average Joe/Jerry.

ferg

As I have mentioned before, do not put too much stock in what the MSDS says. The MSDSs are designed to inform people about any, all, potential, possible, might happen, might never happen effects of chemicals. While it is true that oxalic acid is more reactive and worse for your health than other compounds used to clean leather. it should not be looked at as worse for your health than other chemicals without much more experience with the compound itself. What I am saying is that it depends more on what you are reacting with, what concentration you are using, and how safe you are working with the chemical (proper protective equipment etc.).

As far as oxalic acid behing hazardous, I would say yes. Is lemon juice hazardous? Yes in the right situation. Take a look at the MSDS for table salt. Hazardous? You bet! Check it out:

"Precautions:

Keep locked up.. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested,

seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label. Keep away from incompatibles such as oxidizing

agents, acids"

Now consider the MSDS for some of the primary ingredients of lemon juice that are good for cleaning leather. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and citiric acid. Let me know if those scare you a little. Check out acetic acid from the vinegar. How about phosphoric acid in Coke.

One should not think of a chemical as being hazardous just because they don't recognize it easily. Many people get the idea that just because something does not occur naturally that it is especially hazardous. This is no more true than the reverse. As I mentioned in previous posts, snake venom is a naturally occurring product, that doesn't make it safe for me.

On another note, oxalic acid does occur naturally and in products you might eat. Take Rhubarb and spinach for example. The thing is, the oxalic acid is not as concentrated there as the crystals you might buy. Of course you should making a dilute solution with those crystals anyhow when cleaning your leather.

The overarching conclusion is to use chemicals (anything made of atoms) carefully and safely. Consult the MSDS, consult a chemist, consult anyone with experience and follow their reasoning. Better safe than sorry. Do not dismiss something as being more hazardous/less hazardous just because of your preference for "organic" or common products. I am using the term "organic" here in the common consumer sense which is almost completely at odds with the chemical definition of organic.

I would venture to guess that there are many more hazardous chemicals that are in your house that kids and pets could get into as well. Be safe and use common sense.

I would probably use vinegar to clean my leather as well, although I have no experience with cleaning leather. Anyone have any experience using other acids? Perhaps hydrochloric, or acetylsalicylic acid. I am inclined to think that dissolving a couple of aspirin tablets (mostly acetylsalicylic acid) in water might yield good results. I am very curious to know what the results are.

And, while we are speaking "chemically" here it should be noted that water will not neutralize the vinegar it will only dilute it. Not that it is that too important. :-) I assume you would still have a little vinegar smell like 'rooned leather?

[oldtimer]

I would say that using contact cement is more hasardous to your health than using oxalic acid.

/ Knut

[WinterBear]

Just for comparison (from http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk), the lowest published lethal dosage (LD_lo) in humans (men and women) and lethal dose 50% kill (LD₅₀) for rats for common household acids taken orally (as compared to inhalation or other methods or exposure) are:

-oxalic acid as oxalic acid dihydride: LD_lo of 600 mg/kg in humans for oral ingestion, and for rats, LD₅₀ 7,500 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-acetic acid = LD_lo 308 mg/kg in humans (no method of intake was given), and for rats, LD₅₀ of 3,310 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-boric acid = LD_lo of 200 mg/kg and also 429 mg/kg for oral ingestion in humans (woman and man, respectively), and for rats, LD₅₀ 2,660 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-acetylsalicylic acid (asprin) = LD_lo of 104 mg/kg and also ~ 400 mg/kg for oral ingestion in humans (child and man, respectively), and for rats, LD₅₀ 200 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-citric acid as citric acid monohydrate: no data given for humans, and for rats, LD₅₀ of 11,700 mg/kg for oral ingestion

So based on common concentration of these chemicals (excluding citric acid) for oral ingestion only and based on the lowest reported fatal dosage, the order of increasing toxicity for humans is: oxalic acid dihydride < acetic acid < boric acid < acetylsalicylic acid. For a 50% kill rate in rats, the order is farily similar: citric acid < oxalic acid dihydride < acetic acid < boric acid < acetylsalicylic acid.

All this means of course, that if you ingested a similar concentration of any these acids, the citric acid will generally be the least lethal and acetylsalicytic acid the most. It doesn't mean that they are "safe", but it doesn't mean they are automatically extremely dangerous either. It just means that you need to follow instructions carefully, take reasonable precautions against splashes, accidental ingestion, skin exposure, and inhalation, that you don't mix it with anything else (even another "safe" chemical or solution), and you clean everything up afterwards and dispose of it properly.

[cybertracy]

fyi: if you choose to go the oxalic route, an inexpensive, very common source is the product "Barkeeper's Friend" found in the cleanser aisle of most grocery stores. Its only ingredient is oxalic acid and it's generally used as a less abrasive alternative cleanser for copper and other soft metals. MSDS

[stanly]

Just for comparison (from http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk), the lowest published lethal dosage (LD_lo) in humans (men and women) and lethal dose 50% kill (LD₅₀) for rats for common household acids taken orally (as compared to inhalation or other methods or exposure) are:

-oxalic acid as oxalic acid dihydride: LD_lo of 600 mg/kg in humans for oral ingestion, and for rats, LD₅₀ 7,500 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-acetic acid = LD_lo 308 mg/kg in humans (no method of intake was given), and for rats, LD₅₀ of 3,310 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-boric acid = LD_lo of 200 mg/kg and also 429 mg/kg for oral ingestion in humans (woman and man, respectively), and for rats, LD₅₀ 2,660 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-acetylsalicylic acid (asprin) = LD_lo of 104 mg/kg and also ~ 400 mg/kg for oral ingestion in humans (child and man, respectively), and for rats, LD₅₀ 200 mg/kg for oral ingestion

-citric acid as citric acid monohydrate: no data given for humans, and for rats, LD₅₀ of 11,700 mg/kg for oral ingestion

So based on common concentration of these chemicals (excluding citric acid) for oral ingestion only and based on the lowest reported fatal dosage, the order of increasing toxicity for humans is: oxalic acid dihydride < acetic acid < boric acid < acetylsalicylic acid. For a 50% kill rate in rats, the order is farily similar: citric acid < oxalic acid dihydride < acetic acid < boric acid < acetylsalicylic acid.

All this means of course, that if you ingested a similar concentration of any these acids, the citric acid will generally be the least lethal and acetylsalicytic acid the most. It doesn't mean that they are "safe", but it doesn't mean they are automatically extremely dangerous either. It just means that you need to follow instructions carefully, take reasonable precautions against splashes, accidental ingestion, skin exposure, and inhalation, that you don't mix it with anything else (even another "safe" chemical or solution), and you clean everything up afterwards and dispose of it properly.

oxalic acid also is used as deck bleach- found at building supply stores iin liquid form.

AND mostly what I'm getting from the above tables is .... Damn those rats are tough.

[WinterBear]

Pretty much. If it'll kill a rat, it's something that can kill a person.

[bentley]

Want your leather to look like copper patina? Clean with oxalic acid and dye with Fiebings light blue, not the look I was trying to achieve but there is some reaction with the acid I guess.

[Charliewz]

Thanks for the info Tracy, I have been going to try oxalic acid and now I will try Barkeepers friend, sounds good to me. Charlie

fyi: if you choose to go the oxalic route, an inexpensive, very common source is the product "Barkeeper's Friend" found in the cleanser aisle of most grocery stores. Its only ingredient is oxalic acid and it's generally used as a less abrasive alternative cleanser for copper and other soft metals. MSDS

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

You are correct, simply washing an object with water does not completely neutralize the vinegar but it does indeed dilute it to the extent that it offers no detrimental effects. As I said in my previous post, "Allow the leather to dry completely before applying finishes or dyes."

I can find a thousand things in everyday life that could hinder a person's health. Unfortunately today, folks are so immunized against so many things that we ate when I was a kid. They would probably kill half the population now.

Use common sense folks. I like to think most Leather folks are at least a little smarter than the average Joe/Jerry.

ferg

Like Ferg, I have been using oxalic acid for years, probably between Ferg and I we have better than 100 years of experience with it, and no problems. Like Ferg says, "use common sense folks", and you will be fine, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Bob

[Toolingaround]

Hello Everyone

I am a rank amature newbie of the first degree and have been glued leatherworker.net since I found it!!!

Being short on cash and long on enthusiasm I downloaded a bunch of out of copywrite books from google on leatherworking. In this book

The decoration of leather

Georges de Récy

They mention a study done in 1900 on the durability of various book binding leather techniques and concluded among other things that oxalic acid is BAD news.

I don't know what modern studies may have found but just something to keep in mind if you are doing heirloom stuff.

Anyhow can't thank you all enough for this amazing fountain of knowledge!!!

Cheers,

Toolingaround

[Bard Skye]

As I have mentioned before, do not put too much stock in what the MSDS says. The MSDSs are designed to inform people about any, all, potential, possible, might happen, might never happen effects of chemicals. While it is true that oxalic acid is more reactive and worse for your health than other compounds used to clean leather. it should not be looked at as worse for your health than other chemicals without much more experience with the compound itself. What I am saying is that it depends more on what you are reacting with, what concentration you are using, and how safe you are working with the chemical (proper protective equipment etc.).

As far as oxalic acid behing hazardous, I would say yes. Is lemon juice hazardous? Yes in the right situation. Take a look at the MSDS for table salt. Hazardous? You bet! Check it out:

You're absolutely right. I use *far* more hazardous things than oxalic acid on a daily basis.

I still prefer using things that I already have around the house, though.

You should check out this site:

http://www.dhmo.org/

Be sure to take a look at the "press kit" while you're there.

Skye

[Radthalan]

That web site is freaking hilarious. I only hope people don't take it too seriously and freak out LOL. Thanks Bard

[Bard Skye]

That web site is freaking hilarious. I only hope people don't take it too seriously and freak out LOL. Thanks Bard

I'm afraid some people do. Go into the press kit and read up on the Aliso Viejo incident. The city was about to outlaw styrofoam cups because DHMO was used in their manufacture!

BTW, "bard" is a title. As in musician / singer / entertainer. It's what I do in the SCA.

Skye

[jimmy eng]

I've used diluted vinegar and diluted dish detergent (separately) to clean bags with mold because it stops it from forming and removes a lot of it so my question is if the crystals will do the same thing.