Permalock Needle/lacing Problem

[mandyregal]

Hi,

I'm lacing a purse together and I'm having trouble keeping the lace inside the jumbo permalock needle. Here's what I have been doing. I skive the last inch of my lace down to approx half the width. Then I cut a taper in the end and twist it up in there. Everything is fine until I try to go through 4 thicknesses of leather where the tab holds the D ring to the purse. The lace always slips out of the needle. I try not to pull the lace, and I've widened the holes that are giving me trouble with a stylus. Any of you old timers have any tips to share? Thanks!!

[Luke Hatley]

Hi,

I'm lacing a purse together and I'm having trouble keeping the lace inside the jumbo permalock needle. Here's what I have been doing. I skive the last inch of my lace down to approx half the width. Then I cut a taper in the end and twist it up in there. Everything is fine until I try to go through 4 thicknesses of leather where the tab holds the D ring to the purse. The lace always slips out of the needle. I try not to pull the lace, and I've widened the holes that are giving me trouble with a stylus. Any of you old timers have any tips to share? Thanks!!

Forget the permalock needle and get the Life eye regular lacing needle.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Luke Hatley

[electrathon]

Forget the permalock needle and get the Life eye regular lacing needle.

What he said:16:

Round needles are good for round lace, flat needles are great for flat lace. http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/1194-032.aspx I have never understood the logic of tying to use those horrid, huge round needles. Get the correct needles and lacing becomes fun.

Aaron

[ClayB]

Don't skive the lace down when using the perma lock needle, just taper it so you screw it into the needle. If you skive it down, it doesn't have the thickness it needs to hold tight in the threads. That's the only needles I use. I have good luck with them and cant imagine using the other ones. What works for one of us doesn't necessarily work for everyone, that doesn't mean they don't work.

[katsass]

Forget the permalock needle and get the Life eye regular lacing needle.

Luke, A question from a grumpy old guy; Where in hell do you find Life Eye needles? I have looked all over for the things since mine (about 20 yrs old) disappeared. The PermaLoc needles are too damned big ! Even their smallest. Mike

Edited October 13, 2011 by katsass

[electrathon]

Luke, A question from a grumpy old guy; Where in hell do you find Life Eye needles? I have looked all over for the things since mine (about 20 yrs old) disappeared. The PermaLoc needles are too damned big ! Even their smallest. Mike

There was a link in my post above: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/1194-032.aspx

Tandy calls them lok-eye.

Have to agree. They are way too big for normal lacing. If you are using grosly oversized round holes like Tandy punches in kits they work. Go to normal lacing sized slots and they are a bad dream happening.

Aaron

[katsass]

There was a link in my post above: http://www.tandyleat...s/1194-032.aspx

Tandy calls them lok-eye.

Have to agree. They are way too big for normal lacing. If you are using grosly oversized round holes like Tandy punches in kits they work. Go to normal lacing sized slots and they are a bad dream happening.

Aaron

Aaron, thanks for the reply, BUT, those are not the Life Eye. I have at least a dozen of the split prong flat needles, but the old Life Eye were the best lacing needle I ever had. Like I said, my last one was about 20 years old, but somehow disappeared. Mike

[Phatdaddy]

My first thought is that the original poster is using latigo type lace and the perma lock needle. I could be mistaken.

[katsass]

Hi,

I'm lacing a purse together and I'm having trouble keeping the lace inside the jumbo permalock needle. Here's what I have been doing. I skive the last inch of my lace down to approx half the width. Then I cut a taper in the end and twist it up in there. Everything is fine until I try to go through 4 thicknesses of leather where the tab holds the D ring to the purse. The lace always slips out of the needle. I try not to pull the lace, and I've widened the holes that are giving me trouble with a stylus. Any of you old timers have any tips to share? Thanks!!

In a pinch Mandy, I have cut a looong taper on the tip of my lace, covered it with 'super glue' (both sided) for about an inch and allow to dry. I then carefully insert the stiffened lace tip into the hole and pull through with a pair of smooth jawed pliers. I use a (dull) awl as a fid to lift the lace for going under a stitch, and ease the lace tip under far enough to grasp with the pliers. Mike

[Scary Leatherworks]

I use the perma-lock needles and I don't have much problem. It's already been said but cut a long taper so you can get more into the needle and don't skive it. I used the lok-eye needles when I first started but the lace never stayed in it for me and the lock side was always sprung after putting the lace in a few times. I'm sure it was more operator error at the time but I switched needles and haven't ever re-tried the others again

[mandyregal]

First I want to thank everyone for their suggestions.

I forgot to add that initially I tried the other needle you suggested, the Lok eye needle. The little prongs didn't hold the lace in either. So that's when I tried the round Perma Lok needle.

So, I'll try some of your suggestions and report back.

Thanks again.

[McJeep]

found a wee trick for cutting the taper on the lace (I use the 1/8 lace a lot and it's hard to hold it to cut the taper)

So I started using a utility knife blade by itself, lining it up to the angle I want, and tap with the mallet - nice clean points for screwing into the permalock every time

Now if I could learn how to join two pieces rather than having to braid the ends into themselves when starting a new piece of lace, I'd be happy ;0)

[Northmount]

I use a curved perma-lok type needle bought from Tandy about 45 years ago. Lost it a couple times and luckily found it again. I decided recently to get a couple extra needles. The new ones are way too thick. My old one works for 3/32 and 1/8 lace with no problems. I'm going to take a file to the new ones and see how much I can remove from the tip. The tips look like an elephant stomped on them!

I have found good perma-lok needles are far better than the spring leaf types with a couple barbs. They just don't hold on for tight pulls.

If you break the lace off flush with the end of a perma-lok, heat it up with a match or lighter and burn the lace out of it. Tap the ash out, clean off any soot, and go back to work. It has only happened to me once, so I am a little more careful about how tight the pull is. It it's too tight, I enlarge the slit a little and make sure the layers are properly glued and lined up.

Happy lacing!

[mandyregal]

Ok, I finished my purse and it came out really nice. Initially I used the lok eye needle and I must have gotten two duds. The first one snapped when I opened it to insert the lace, and with the second one, the prongs snapped off when I lightly tapped it with a mallet to seat the prongs into the lace.

At that point I got frustrated and had to go eat a bowl of icecream. That always seems to help when I'm frustrated.

I tried the jumbo permalock needle and I couldn't get the lace to stay in, I think the they make the new ones with the threads too shallow. I used one that an old timer gave me and I could really tell a great difference. I guess the old saying holds true-- they really don't make em like they used to. Plus, I really didn't like trying to use a round needle with flat lace. It seems you could twist the lace too easily.

In conclusion, I ended up ordering more lok eye needles and that did the trick. I don't know if the ones I had been using were old and brittle or what. But the new one worked for me.

I heard some people make their own lacing needles out of old soda cans, anyone tried that??

Thanks again for all your help!!

[ramrod]

when i use the lok eye needles, i will skive and taper the lace. then i'll push the point of a small razor knife through the lace where the little barbs will contact it. that way, the barbs will penetrate the lace completely and make the perfect hold.

i've also used a pair of pliers to squeeze the needle and that will also set those barbs. it makes a nice little snap sound when they seat.

[cipher]

So... does anyone know where you can buy the brass "Life Eye" needles? The kind you screw the lace into? I have two small ones, but would like to buy a few more. Mine have "Life Eye" name pressed into the brass...

Thanks...

[ramrod]

i got mine at tandy. i can't remember when or how much it was, tho.

[cipher]

i got mine at tandy. i can't remember when or how much it was, tho.

Thanks ramrod, but it seems they only have the perma locks ones now... :-(

[Phatdaddy]

I couldn't find a picture of the Life Eye, is anyone able to post a pic that I could see the diff between that and the perma lock ones?

Kevin

[electrathon]

I couldn't find a picture of the Life Eye, is anyone able to post a pic that I could see the diff between that and the perma lock ones?

Kevin

This has been one of the most confusing threads ever.

As best as I can figure out, the only difference between a life eye and a perma loc needle is the name. Here is a link showing life eye: http://books.google.com/books?id=BX7KMhYk_B4C&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=life+eye+needle&source=bl&ots=fapS2n5Vot&sig=l_OAUNZQ7XnLYIHcXfA0e2zlYbo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K1HzTtD_NaKniQL_kMykDg&sqi=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=life%20eye%20needle&f=false Look on page 171.

Both are round needles with a round hole in the end that is tapped inside the hallow tube so you can thread the lace inside. As best as I can tell, the only way for a layman to tell them apart is to read the name brand on the side of them.

I stand by my original statement: Round needles are for round lace, flat needles are for flat lace. I want to add one more line: Round holes are for round lace, flat holes are for flat lace.This seems so simple. I am guessing that a lot of people use way over sized holes when lacing, making it seem like the perma loc needle fits easily (holes the size of a Tandy kit for example). If I am mistaken, someone please correct me.

If you want your lacing to look good, use smaller holes, closely spaced together and larger lace. I have posted a few pics of what my lacing looks like when done this way (rawhide has also posted pics of his work in the past, he crowds his lace too) in other threads. I see lacing on some peoples work on here and do not understand how it can be so inconsistent. Lacing is very easy, but it also takes a lot of time. The two prong needles are crap. The lace constantly falls off them and just make you frustrated. Lok eye needles hold and hold well. From a pull on them and they stay on perspective they are at least 5 times stronger than any other needle I have ever used. A lot of people confuse lok eye needles with two prong needles, they are a world apart. I do acknowledge, lok eye needles do not last very long. If yo want to lace 5 different items with one needle, it likely will not happen. But they are cheap, just replace them.

[DoubleC]

This has been one of the most confusing threads ever.

As best as I can figure out, the only difference between a life eye and a perma loc needle is the name. Here is a link showing life eye: http://books.google....0needle&f=false Look on page 171.

Both are round needles with a round hole in the end that is tapped inside the hallow tube so you can thread the lace inside. As best as I can tell, the only way for a layman to tell them apart is to read the name brand on the side of them.

I stand by my original statement: Round needles are for round lace, flat needles are for flat lace. I want to add one more line: Round holes are for round lace, flat holes are for flat lace.This seems so simple. I am guessing that a lot of people use way over sized holes when lacing, making it seem like the perma loc needle fits easily (holes the size of a Tandy kit for example). If I am mistaken, someone please correct me.

If you want your lacing to look good, use smaller holes, closely spaced together and larger lace. I have posted a few pics of what my lacing looks like when done this way (rawhide has also posted pics of his work in the past, he crowds his lace too) in other threads. I see lacing on some peoples work on here and do not understand how it can be so inconsistent. Lacing is very easy, but it also takes a lot of time. The two prong needles are crap. The lace constantly falls off them and just make you frustrated. Lok eye needles hold and hold well. From a pull on them and they stay on perspective they are at least 5 times stronger than any other needle I have ever used. A lot of people confuse lok eye needles with two prong needles, they are a world apart. I do acknowledge, lok eye needles do not last very long. If yo want to lace 5 different items with one needle, it likely will not happen. But they are cheap, just replace them.

Wow, I went to sleep and woke up in leather fantasy world. I just got my first sewing awl, the speedy stitcher, and even though it was old it had instructions. that I understood. I threw a party after I did my first lock stitch. It took me 1/2 this thread to realize what you were talking about, and now I find out there is something that LACES too? I have been making a set of rythym beads when I'm done with other crap at night, and have laced on by hand over 300 pony beads, plus the bells . I'm having so much fun here and learning so much already in just the last few days. Cheryl

[Dave Richardson]

I stand by my original statement: Round needles are for round lace, flat needles are for flat lace. I want to add one more line: Round holes are for round lace, flat holes are for flat lace.This seems so simple. I am guessing that a lot of people use way over sized holes when lacing, making it seem like the perma loc needle fits easily (holes the size of a Tandy kit for example). If I am mistaken, someone please correct me.

The two prong needles are crap. The lace constantly falls off them and just make you frustrated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being new to leather working I have been working on small projects ( Tom Thumb style coin purse) that require lacing. I found the above two statements to be RIGHT ON !!! I am using flat 1/8 inch Tandy imperial lace. I have been drilling my holes but do not like the looks of flat lace in a round hole. And I can not keep the lace on a two prong needle. I would like to ask, are the loc eye needles still the way to go ? And to make flat holes are the lacing chisels the tool of choice and which one ?

Thanks so much,

Dave

Edited August 21, 2012 by Dave Richardson

[electrathon]

I still always use loc eye needles.

For a punch I have not found anything that even comes close to the pliers style punches from Craft Japan. Not sure of the link right now. They are fast, simple and very easy to use. Perfect slots every time. It is how I got them so nice on the wallet posted above.

Aaron

[Dave Richardson]

Thanks Aaron, Im going to give the loc eye needles a try. I know the pliers type punches your talking about, seems like they are aroind 50 bucks, may be something I work up to after I can keep a dang needle on the lace !!!!

Ya know, ole George on the Tandy video said you can use pliers to attach the two prong to the lace OR you can use a mallet to tap it down....after looking for something larger in a mallet than the 2 lb ball peen I was using I realized you just cant hit them things hard enough to attach em !

Dave