441 Clones

[JET4]

Hey all,

I tried to search the forums before asking this question, so forgive me if my questions have been asked before.

I'm in the process of researching my first machine and have about decided that a 441 or clone will meet my needs. The local shop sells the sewpro 441 for $3500. From what I've researched so far, it looks like other clones on the 441are less expensive. So why would I shell out $3500, if I can get a different 441 machine for less? Am I missing something here?

So, who makes clones of the 441 machine and who made the original 441?

It seems that the more I research, the more confused I get. If it wasn't for this forum, I would still have no idea what I was looking for.

And while we are at it, I work a lot with 12-14 Latigo, as well as sewing double and triple layers of 8-9 oz, so I need something that will sew pretty thick stuff. I would also like to be able to dial it down for thinner projects, which is why I like what I have read about the 441. What are other comparable, do it all or most of it, machines I should be looking at?

Thanks

[Wizcrafts]

Juki made, and still makes the original TSC-441 machine. It was the Japanese answer to the German Adler 205-370.

Through the ensuing years the Chinese have cloned every popular Japanese and German sewing machine. The 441 is no exception. There are more 441 clones than Carter has liver pills. But they are not all the same!

We have several dealer-members on this forum, who distribute their own branded versions of the Juki 441, but made in China. The best known and respected brands are Cowboy and Cobra. The dealers who import these machines go over them with a fine tooth comb. They correct any problems, adjust the timing, often change out parts for locally made parts, then sew them off with thick thread, into thick leather.

The average price of a bare-bones 441 clone, with a 16.5 inch cylinder arm, from Cowboy or Cobra, is about $2100 - $2200, minus popular accessories. Typically, users buy a package, with extras, worth about $2500, plus shipping.

This is $1000 less than you are expecting to pay, if the machine you inquired about has a 16.5 inch arm. The 25 inch arm models sell for about $3000 to $3500.

Note: Adler clones cost more than 441 clones. Perhaps your dealer is selling an Adler clone, not a Juki. Or, maybe that price is for a used Juki 441.

[JET4]

Thanks Wizcrafts,

Here is a link to the one that is available locally. Then only benefit I can see with getting this one is that they are close should I need service. With that being said, I have heard nothing but good things about the Cowboy and Cobra machines and their dealers, except from my local guy (of course).

Which Cowboy and Cobra models are the 441 clones?

What about the Weaver Master Lockstitch...isn't it a 441 clone also? I think they are around $2500

Thanks again for answering my questions

[Art]

Cobra

Cowboy

Art

Thanks Wizcrafts,

Here is a link to the one that is available locally. Then only benefit I can see with getting this one is that they are close should I need service. With that being said, I have heard nothing but good things about the Cowboy and Cobra machines and their dealers, except from my local guy (of course).

Which Cowboy and Cobra models are the 441 clones?

What about the Weaver Master Lockstitch...isn't it a 441 clone also? I think they are around $2500

Thanks again for answering my questions

[Wizcrafts]

You have to consider that your local dealer may be buying his machines in small quantities and is not getting the price break that Cobra Steve and Cowboy Bob are getting. But, they have to put out tens of thousands of dollars for each order of machines and then wait for them to be built and delivered from China. Then, after uncrating them, they spend an average of 6 hours per machine, setting them up, adjusting the timing, tightening the screws and fixing cosmetic anomalies, or adding their own special feet and cover plates.

The thing about these big machines is that they are built like tanks. Once they are properly setup by a competent dealer.mechanic, they are good to go for years. Yes, you will knock the timing out and will call for assistance. These dealers will take your call and walk you through all minor repairs, even sending small replacement parts when needed. It's called value added services.

All 441 clones are not built to the same standards. The Chinese factories make three qualities of sewing machine. The top quality is reserved for actual commercial brand name companies for whom they build sewing machines distributed through official networks.

Next is the custom branded machines, sold by Cobra Steve and Cowboy Bob, and Techsew Ronnie. These dealer-importers specify how they want the machines built, the color scheme and what level of materials they want used in it. This reduces the likelihood that a machine will arrive non-functional, or requiring extensive repairs to get it sewing.

Finally, there is a third class of machine that is built to lower quality control and parts standards. I think of those machines as the eBay class. The sellers would have to spend at least 8 hours bringing these machines up to snuff. Drop ship dealers don't even do that. They have the machine dropped off at your location from a warehouse, untested and unadjusted.

I can't tell you where your linked-to machine falls, category-wise. I don't know much about the Weaver branded machines personally. You'd have to ask them.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[leatherkind]

I would like to add a good word about Cowboy 4500 I have purchased from Bob.

I am new to sewing but always wanted to make something out of leather. I did not even know what i wanted to make...

After spending countless hours chasing "industrial" leather machines on Craigslist I found this website and soon after decided that Cowboy looks good.

I did not see a difference between Cobra and Cowboy but Toledo is 1000mi closer and their phone was first in the list and they picked up the phone...

Bob spent significant time with me on the phone explaining all the pros and cons. Of course most of the stuff was new to me.

The more I new about the machine the more confident i was that i am choosing the right one.

Look how solid every part of it is. There are no wimpy screws on this equipment and all rods are like an inch in diameter.

You will need help to mount the head on the table it is that heavy.

This is no nonsense machine. I am not even sure if you can knock it off timing! It seems like it will go through anything you stick in to it as long as it is not thicker then 1 inch.

You will stitch a zipper to thin leather or go through 5 layers of thick oil tan... no difference. Amazing.

I used 130 thread and 346 ... no difference! Do they call 346 a rope? Just change the tension and a needle. I do not even oil the tread and I am using same thread on both sides.

The bobbin on Cowboy 4500 takes about 47 feet of #346 thread!

It took me a while to figure out the tension though but once i knew how it was just pure enjoyment.

The thing is that this machine with thick threads needs a lot higher tension then regular boxstore $70 model but those are... different, and i did not know any better.

Here is one of our first bags. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25239&view=findpost&p=213686

Whatever extras i needed Bob shipped them to me same day. Awesome service!

Good luck!

PS. I am not affiliated with any one seller and do not work for any. Just in case it may appear i am doing a sale here

[evandailey]

Thanks Wizcrafts,

Here is a link to the one that is available locally. Then only benefit I can see with getting this one is that they are close should I need service. With that being said, I have heard nothing but good things about the Cowboy and Cobra machines and their dealers, except from my local guy (of course).

Which Cowboy and Cobra models are the 441 clones?

What about the Weaver Master Lockstitch...isn't it a 441 clone also? I think they are around $2500

Thanks again for answering my questions

Yes, the Weaver Master Lockstitch machine is a 441 clone also. I have not seen a Cowboy or Cobra in person yet, but I spent 45 mins with Vernon Weaver looking at theirs one day. I was impressed with it.

[KAYAK45]

You are on the right path, grasshopper! Of my seven machines, my CB4500 is the most versatile.

$2,500 gets you everything you need. I bought a dozen needles and will never use them. i'll be too old. no! no! no! regrets.

[Steven Kelley]

I purchased a Cowboy 4500 from Bob in July. Very happy with the machine and Bob's service.

[korokan]

You have to consider that your local dealer may be buying his machines in small quantities and is not getting the price break that Cobra Steve and Cowboy Bob are getting. But, they have to put out tens of thousands of dollars for each order of machines and then wait for them to be built and delivered from China. Then, after uncrating them, they spend an average of 6 hours per machine, setting them up, adjusting the timing, tightening the screws and fixing cosmetic anomalies, or adding their own special feet and cover plates.

The thing about these big machines is that they are built like tanks. Once they are properly setup by a competent dealer.mechanic, they are good to go for years. Yes, you will knock the timing out and will call for assistance. These dealers will take your call and walk you through all minor repairs, even sending small replacement parts when needed. It's called value added services.

All 441 clones are not built to the same standards. The Chinese factories make three qualities of sewing machine. The top quality is reserved for actual commercial brand name companies for whom they build sewing machines distributed through official networks.

Next is the custom branded machines, sold by Cobra Steve and Cowboy Bob, and Techsew Ronnie. These dealer-importers specify how they want the machines built, the color scheme and what level of materials they want used in it. This reduces the likelihood that a machine will arrive non-functional, or requiring extensive repairs to get it sewing.

Finally, there is a third class of machine that is built to lower quality control and parts standards. I think of those machines as the eBay class. The sellers would have to spend at least 8 hours bringing these machines up to snuff. Drop ship dealers don't even do that. They have the machine dropped off at your location from a warehouse, untested and unadjusted.

I can't tell you where your linked-to machine falls, category-wise. I don't know much about the Weaver branded machines personally. You'd have to ask them.

Weaver is supplied with Prussia 441 from Dagong sewing co., China

[Kustom]

What I found helpful before I ever bought a machine was to go to a leatherworker's convention and check out the different sewing machines. If you can wait until Oct. you can go to http://www.bootandsaddlemakertradeshow.com/Home.html in Wichita Falls, TX. Check first to see who will be there though.

[Itch]

We have 2 441 clones in our shop that get a lot of use.. A Toro 3000 and a Sewpro as long as you keep the bobbin area clean they are work horses..