Am I Being Too Picky/particular?

[Spinner]

As most folks know, I make a lot of motorcycle bibs; they are black, satin sheen and VERY visible in their position on the top of the tank. Since they really are my personal calling card I'm using the best materials I can to take related issues out of the equation. Problem is, even when I order the "best" and pay the associated prices I don't always feel like my perception of best is satisfied by the merchants idea of "best". This has been the case for W&C, HO, Royal Oak (Tandy's #1) and a few other places that deal in imported shoulders/hides.

Question is, how much loss due to marks/scarring should be expected on a hide? To be fair let's use Hermann Oak A or Wickett &Craig 1 as the base lines. These are supposed to be the best of the best, the cleanest, etc. My last few 22-25 sq ft hides from W&C had approx. 10-15% loss due to scarring. A recent H.O. of the same size was better with only 7-8% but there was a 5" x 1/8" scar almost dead center of the hide. Seeing as how I have to be really creative with the patterns to minimize waste (my bibs start out as a T-shape 18" wide and 26-28" long) having 10% loss and blems in the middle can really muck planning up and increases waste even further.

Thoughts, comments? Is this the norm or should I be giving yet another vendor a try?

Thanks,

Chris

[Johanna]

Since you need your leather to have as few imperfections as possible, you may want to develop a relationship with your supplier to hand pick your hides, if you can't select them yourself. Springfield Leather and Zack White would be in a good position to help you obtain exactly what you want. That said, we were always told to tell customers that "Leather is a natural product, so some imperfections are inevitable, and add character and authenticity to your work." (How's that for (old) Tandy spin?) Toolers have an advantage, because they can pound out anything egregious and incorporate it into the design.

Chris, post the pic of that pretty tank bib with the red lacing so that people can see the size of the area you need to be clean on a hide. Maybe someone can make some other suggestions to minimze waste?

Johanna

[Spinner]

Since you need your leather to have as few imperfections as possible, you may want to develop a relationship with your supplier to hand pick your hides, if you can't select them yourself. Springfield Leather and Zack White would be in a good position to help you obtain exactly what you want. That said, we were always told to tell customers that "Leather is a natural product, so some imperfections are inevitable, and add character and authenticity to your work." (How's that for (old) Tandy spin?) Toolers have an advantage, because they can pound out anything egregious and incorporate it into the design.

Chris, post the pic of that pretty tank bib with the red lacing so that people can see the size of the area you need to be clean on a hide. Maybe someone can make some other suggestions to minimze waste?

Johanna

Thanks Johanna, I have gotten to know the folks at a few shops big and small well enough to ask for what I want but sometimes I wish I could just go down and pick myself. I do work with/around marks, positioning them in strategic locations, etc. I haven't tried Sheridan Leather or ZW yet, they may be next (that would take me to #9 & 10 on the list of vendors). Springfield has great folks and they do try the hardest to get what you want but I think their effort may be limited by their available stock. Most folks just don't have to pull individual pieces the size of mine out of a hide so I can see where it would be difficult to accommodate. On a good day, I can get 5-6 of my whaletail bibs cut from a clean 22 sqft hide with only a small bit of clean leftovers. It very well could be that I'm just being too critical of these things, it's not like woodturning was any different...I constantly had to work around knots, bark inclusions, etc. the only difference is if I did it right, the client would actually pay more for a piece that started out with a huge blemish! LOL

Here's the pic of the bib you mentioned and another couple that I did recently. Front to back, these measure close to 28" long to give some scale:

[45LC]

Spinner,

I'm not sure that wanting decent leather is being picky. You're not alone and I don't think as buyers we need to beg the suppliers to furnish decent leather. My orders from W & C usually resulted in 20 -30 percent scrap even though I was being charged for better leather. I finally told them I was tired of begging. I don't think they'll miss me. I'm centered exactly between two Tandy stores and plan to pick out my leather in the future. Their European leather looks to be pretty good and I'm going to give it a try.

[K-Man]

I've had the opportunity to try/use the same and other leathers that you mention. I've found H.O. to be the best in every area. I would estimate that I've spent $30 -35k with them over the past five years or so. I've only sent leather back to them once, for a total of 3 backs. I expect exceptional leather for what I make/offer and that's what I've received. W&C's leather was too mushy for my making of holsters and other stuff. Sure, you can order one piece at a time versus 10 from H.O., but I've just not been satisfied with what W&C sent/offered. I've had leather handpicked by a couple of other places mentioned, and ended up sending it back on more than one occasion. Yes, I was reimbursed for the cost of the leather or new leather sent. But even in those instances, it wasn't much better than originally sent.

I would suggest calling H.O. and talking with Judith. I've also talked with Lee and Shep, but have had better results with Judith. YMMV.

[Spinner]

Spinner,

I'm not sure that wanting decent leather is being picky. You're not alone and I don't think as buyers we need to beg the suppliers to furnish decent leather. My orders from W & C usually resulted in 20 -30 percent scrap even though I was being charged for better leather. I finally told them I was tired of begging. I don't think they'll miss me. I'm centered exactly between two Tandy stores and plan to pick out my leather in the future. Their European leather looks to be pretty good and I'm going to give it a try.

I've had the opportunity to try/use the same and other leathers that you mention. I've found H.O. to be the best in every area. I would estimate that I've spent $30 -35k with them over the past five years or so. I've only sent leather back to them once, for a total of 3 backs. I expect exceptional leather for what I make/offer and that's what I've received. W&C's leather was too mushy for my making of holsters and other stuff. Sure, you can order one piece at a time versus 10 from H.O., but I've just not been satisfied with what W&C sent/offered. I've had leather handpicked by a couple of other places mentioned, and ended up sending it back on more than one occasion. Yes, I was reimbursed for the cost of the leather or new leather sent. But even in those instances, it wasn't much better than originally sent.

I would suggest calling H.O. and talking with Judith. I've also talked with Lee and Shep, but have had better results with Judith. YMMV.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I tooled on the HO from Goliger last night and it was awesome stuff. Just to make sure I'm not limiting myself though, I ordered a side from Sheridan Leather Outfitters to see how the two compare. Price was only $0.50 difference including shipping between the two shops. Both made notes on the pick sheets to send HO grade A - cleanest so we'll see how their pick staffs respond to that as well. Customer Service at both have been great, Cheryl @ Goliger and Andi @ SLO were both helpful, listened well and nice to chat with.

K-man, I'd love to order direct and might get to that point some day but right now business/budget only requires 2-4 hides a month. Aside from storage issues, it would take me a little while to save for the leather bill and that would push the sewing machine purchase out even further. Oh well, I'll get there soon enough. I do appreciate the tips on who to talk to though, a good contact always helps!

Chris

[Elton Joorisity]

Umm just a little note, that would be Vandy at SLO. There are only 3 to 4 employees there, Vandy, Luke, Emily, Steve (thursdays and saturdays) and sometimes Matt I have dealt with them since before they bought out the outfit from Stevenson Paxton and I have never had a problem other than a color shade issue on some chrome tan which was neither of our faults. I hope you are happy with either choice.

[Spinner]

Umm just a little note, that would be Vandy at SLO. There are only 3 to 4 employees there, Vandy, Luke, Emily, Steve (thursdays and saturdays) and sometimes Matt I have dealt with them since before they bought out the outfit from Stevenson Paxton and I have never had a problem other than a color shade issue on some chrome tan which was neither of our faults. I hope you are happy with either choice.

Thanks for the correction Elton. Vandy was "wrangling the dogs in" when she answered the phone so I must have missed the V during the fray. All the same, she provided a great first impression and I'm looking forward to seeing what they send.

Chris

[reddevil76]

Chris, I think if you paid for A grade, you should expect A grade.

I have tried HO from Springfield, these are so called Craftsman grade, and it was rather bad. About 50% waste. Springfield don't offer a higher grade.

Then I tried the imported Top Grade Tooling Sides. The 3-4 oz is ermm... well, if I was making 3" X 3" coasters, I'd probably have 40% waste. But seeing that I need 8" X 8" pieces for my biker wallets, it seems like its going to be 100% waste. I have yet to even take it out from the stack. One day I might just make a door rug from it.

The 2-3 oz was a funny thing. The drop down menu had 1) 2-3oz, and 2) 2-3oz Soft. I chose number 1, and it came soft like cloth. I wonder what number 2 is like.

Nevertheless, the friendliness and customer service of Springfield was great. And since I figured it was not worth the shipping cost to ship the 3-4 oz back, I didn't make an issue of it. Like I said, one day I might use it as a door rug or cut strip out of it and make floor mops with it.

Then I tried the Royal Meadow, and it came super clean. Until I oiled a pouch I made recently. I realised that there are indeed scars and tick bites on it. Not alot though. Just that the hide colour is so light that you don't see them till you oil or case it.

Thinking of trying the WC standard grade once I finish working through my current inventory.

It's hard lessons for me. The so call top grade tooling side, at $3.99/sq ft, by the time it reaches me, will have become $8/sq ft. The Royal Meadow was $6.80/sq ft elite price, after shipping, $12/sq ft. I have to go through so much anguish just to find out how each type are, since I don't have the luxury to pick out hides myself too.

But one thing i did figure out is that since shipping is so expensive and it is by weight (the shipper doesn't care if its low or top grade), you might as well just buy the best and make the most of the shipping cost.

Edited November 8, 2011 by reddevil76

[Spinner]

Then I tried the Royal Meadow, and it came super clean. Until I oiled a pouch I made recently. I realised that there are indeed scars and tick bites on it. Not alot though. Just that the hide colour is so light that you don't see them till you oil or case it.

Thinking of trying the WC standard grade once I finish working through my current inventory.

It's hard lessons for me. The so call top grade tooling side, at $3.99/sq ft, by the time it reaches me, will have become $8/sq ft. The Royal Meadow was $6.80/sq ft elite price, after shipping, $12/sq ft. I have to go through so much anguish just to find out how each type are, since I don't have the luxury to pick out hides myself too.

But one thing i did figure out is that since shipping is so expensive and it is by weight (the shipper doesn't care if its low or top grade), you might as well just buy the best and make the most of the shipping cost.

Hey Reddevil,

I had the same experience with the Royal Meadow, I hand picked the nicest piece in the store - looked very clean and a very mellow, light color great for painting on. Once I cut, carved and dyed it about half a dozen spots showed up that didn't even show up when the piece was cased. I did notice though that it was soft, really soft. I curved nicely but even applying Pro Oil dye was enough for the carving to raise back up and loose some definition. Should make good rustic bag leather though.

Before you place your W&C order, let me check out the H.O. from Sheridan Leather Outfitters. It's almost the same price (about 20 cents difference) and shipping shouldn't be much different. With my last piece from Goliger, the H.O. was great to work with. A little stiffer than W&C so for wet molding it was a little more work but on the tooling side of things it was probably my best carving experience ever. The H.O. takes and holds detail extremely well and even with 5/6 oz. I was able to get some great definition & depth, moreso than any leather I have used previously. Hopefully my recent explorations into different vendors can help folks like yourself. Here's a piece in progress carved on the H.O.:

Chris