Am I Being Too Picky/particular?

[Spinner]

As most folks know, I make a lot of motorcycle bibs; they are black, satin sheen and VERY visible in their position on the top of the tank. Since they really are my personal calling card I'm using the best materials I can to take related issues out of the equation. Problem is, even when I order the "best" and pay the associated prices I don't always feel like my perception of best is satisfied by the merchants idea of "best". This has been the case for W&C, HO, Royal Oak (Tandy's #1) and a few other places that deal in imported shoulders/hides.

Question is, how much loss due to marks/scarring should be expected on a hide? To be fair let's use Hermann Oak A or Wickett &Craig 1 as the base lines. These are supposed to be the best of the best, the cleanest, etc. My last few 22-25 sq ft hides from W&C had approx. 10-15% loss due to scarring. A recent H.O. of the same size was better with only 7-8% but there was a 5" x 1/8" scar almost dead center of the hide. Seeing as how I have to be really creative with the patterns to minimize waste (my bibs start out as a T-shape 18" wide and 26-28" long) having 10% loss and blems in the middle can really muck planning up and increases waste even further.

Thoughts, comments? Is this the norm or should I be giving yet another vendor a try?

Thanks,

Chris

[Johanna]

Since you need your leather to have as few imperfections as possible, you may want to develop a relationship with your supplier to hand pick your hides, if you can't select them yourself. Springfield Leather and Zack White would be in a good position to help you obtain exactly what you want. That said, we were always told to tell customers that "Leather is a natural product, so some imperfections are inevitable, and add character and authenticity to your work." (How's that for (old) Tandy spin?) Toolers have an advantage, because they can pound out anything egregious and incorporate it into the design.

Chris, post the pic of that pretty tank bib with the red lacing so that people can see the size of the area you need to be clean on a hide. Maybe someone can make some other suggestions to minimze waste?

Johanna

[Spinner]

Since you need your leather to have as few imperfections as possible, you may want to develop a relationship with your supplier to hand pick your hides, if you can't select them yourself. Springfield Leather and Zack White would be in a good position to help you obtain exactly what you want. That said, we were always told to tell customers that "Leather is a natural product, so some imperfections are inevitable, and add character and authenticity to your work." (How's that for (old) Tandy spin?) Toolers have an advantage, because they can pound out anything egregious and incorporate it into the design.

Chris, post the pic of that pretty tank bib with the red lacing so that people can see the size of the area you need to be clean on a hide. Maybe someone can make some other suggestions to minimze waste?

Johanna

Thanks Johanna, I have gotten to know the folks at a few shops big and small well enough to ask for what I want but sometimes I wish I could just go down and pick myself. I do work with/around marks, positioning them in strategic locations, etc. I haven't tried Sheridan Leather or ZW yet, they may be next (that would take me to #9 & 10 on the list of vendors). Springfield has great folks and they do try the hardest to get what you want but I think their effort may be limited by their available stock. Most folks just don't have to pull individual pieces the size of mine out of a hide so I can see where it would be difficult to accommodate. On a good day, I can get 5-6 of my whaletail bibs cut from a clean 22 sqft hide with only a small bit of clean leftovers. It very well could be that I'm just being too critical of these things, it's not like woodturning was any different...I constantly had to work around knots, bark inclusions, etc. the only difference is if I did it right, the client would actually pay more for a piece that started out with a huge blemish! LOL

Here's the pic of the bib you mentioned and another couple that I did recently. Front to back, these measure close to 28" long to give some scale:

[45LC]

Spinner,

I'm not sure that wanting decent leather is being picky. You're not alone and I don't think as buyers we need to beg the suppliers to furnish decent leather. My orders from W & C usually resulted in 20 -30 percent scrap even though I was being charged for better leather. I finally told them I was tired of begging. I don't think they'll miss me. I'm centered exactly between two Tandy stores and plan to pick out my leather in the future. Their European leather looks to be pretty good and I'm going to give it a try.

[K-Man]

I've had the opportunity to try/use the same and other leathers that you mention. I've found H.O. to be the best in every area. I would estimate that I've spent $30 -35k with them over the past five years or so. I've only sent leather back to them once, for a total of 3 backs. I expect exceptional leather for what I make/offer and that's what I've received. W&C's leather was too mushy for my making of holsters and other stuff. Sure, you can order one piece at a time versus 10 from H.O., but I've just not been satisfied with what W&C sent/offered. I've had leather handpicked by a couple of other places mentioned, and ended up sending it back on more than one occasion. Yes, I was reimbursed for the cost of the leather or new leather sent. But even in those instances, it wasn't much better than originally sent.

I would suggest calling H.O. and talking with Judith. I've also talked with Lee and Shep, but have had better results with Judith. YMMV.

[Spinner]

Spinner,

I'm not sure that wanting decent leather is being picky. You're not alone and I don't think as buyers we need to beg the suppliers to furnish decent leather. My orders from W & C usually resulted in 20 -30 percent scrap even though I was being charged for better leather. I finally told them I was tired of begging. I don't think they'll miss me. I'm centered exactly between two Tandy stores and plan to pick out my leather in the future. Their European leather looks to be pretty good and I'm going to give it a try.

I've had the opportunity to try/use the same and other leathers that you mention. I've found H.O. to be the best in every area. I would estimate that I've spent $30 -35k with them over the past five years or so. I've only sent leather back to them once, for a total of 3 backs. I expect exceptional leather for what I make/offer and that's what I've received. W&C's leather was too mushy for my making of holsters and other stuff. Sure, you can order one piece at a time versus 10 from H.O., but I've just not been satisfied with what W&C sent/offered. I've had leather handpicked by a couple of other places mentioned, and ended up sending it back on more than one occasion. Yes, I was reimbursed for the cost of the leather or new leather sent. But even in those instances, it wasn't much better than originally sent.

I would suggest calling H.O. and talking with Judith. I've also talked with Lee and Shep, but have had better results with Judith. YMMV.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I tooled on the HO from Goliger last night and it was awesome stuff. Just to make sure I'm not limiting myself though, I ordered a side from Sheridan Leather Outfitters to see how the two compare. Price was only $0.50 difference including shipping between the two shops. Both made notes on the pick sheets to send HO grade A - cleanest so we'll see how their pick staffs respond to that as well. Customer Service at both have been great, Cheryl @ Goliger and Andi @ SLO were both helpful, listened well and nice to chat with.

K-man, I'd love to order direct and might get to that point some day but right now business/budget only requires 2-4 hides a month. Aside from storage issues, it would take me a little while to save for the leather bill and that would push the sewing machine purchase out even further. Oh well, I'll get there soon enough. I do appreciate the tips on who to talk to though, a good contact always helps!

Chris

[Elton Joorisity]

Umm just a little note, that would be Vandy at SLO. There are only 3 to 4 employees there, Vandy, Luke, Emily, Steve (thursdays and saturdays) and sometimes Matt I have dealt with them since before they bought out the outfit from Stevenson Paxton and I have never had a problem other than a color shade issue on some chrome tan which was neither of our faults. I hope you are happy with either choice.

[Spinner]

Umm just a little note, that would be Vandy at SLO. There are only 3 to 4 employees there, Vandy, Luke, Emily, Steve (thursdays and saturdays) and sometimes Matt I have dealt with them since before they bought out the outfit from Stevenson Paxton and I have never had a problem other than a color shade issue on some chrome tan which was neither of our faults. I hope you are happy with either choice.

Thanks for the correction Elton. Vandy was "wrangling the dogs in" when she answered the phone so I must have missed the V during the fray. All the same, she provided a great first impression and I'm looking forward to seeing what they send.

Chris

[reddevil76]

Chris, I think if you paid for A grade, you should expect A grade.

I have tried HO from Springfield, these are so called Craftsman grade, and it was rather bad. About 50% waste. Springfield don't offer a higher grade.

Then I tried the imported Top Grade Tooling Sides. The 3-4 oz is ermm... well, if I was making 3" X 3" coasters, I'd probably have 40% waste. But seeing that I need 8" X 8" pieces for my biker wallets, it seems like its going to be 100% waste. I have yet to even take it out from the stack. One day I might just make a door rug from it.

The 2-3 oz was a funny thing. The drop down menu had 1) 2-3oz, and 2) 2-3oz Soft. I chose number 1, and it came soft like cloth. I wonder what number 2 is like.

Nevertheless, the friendliness and customer service of Springfield was great. And since I figured it was not worth the shipping cost to ship the 3-4 oz back, I didn't make an issue of it. Like I said, one day I might use it as a door rug or cut strip out of it and make floor mops with it.

Then I tried the Royal Meadow, and it came super clean. Until I oiled a pouch I made recently. I realised that there are indeed scars and tick bites on it. Not alot though. Just that the hide colour is so light that you don't see them till you oil or case it.

Thinking of trying the WC standard grade once I finish working through my current inventory.

It's hard lessons for me. The so call top grade tooling side, at $3.99/sq ft, by the time it reaches me, will have become $8/sq ft. The Royal Meadow was $6.80/sq ft elite price, after shipping, $12/sq ft. I have to go through so much anguish just to find out how each type are, since I don't have the luxury to pick out hides myself too.

But one thing i did figure out is that since shipping is so expensive and it is by weight (the shipper doesn't care if its low or top grade), you might as well just buy the best and make the most of the shipping cost.

Edited November 8, 2011 by reddevil76

[Spinner]

Then I tried the Royal Meadow, and it came super clean. Until I oiled a pouch I made recently. I realised that there are indeed scars and tick bites on it. Not alot though. Just that the hide colour is so light that you don't see them till you oil or case it.

Thinking of trying the WC standard grade once I finish working through my current inventory.

It's hard lessons for me. The so call top grade tooling side, at $3.99/sq ft, by the time it reaches me, will have become $8/sq ft. The Royal Meadow was $6.80/sq ft elite price, after shipping, $12/sq ft. I have to go through so much anguish just to find out how each type are, since I don't have the luxury to pick out hides myself too.

But one thing i did figure out is that since shipping is so expensive and it is by weight (the shipper doesn't care if its low or top grade), you might as well just buy the best and make the most of the shipping cost.

Hey Reddevil,

I had the same experience with the Royal Meadow, I hand picked the nicest piece in the store - looked very clean and a very mellow, light color great for painting on. Once I cut, carved and dyed it about half a dozen spots showed up that didn't even show up when the piece was cased. I did notice though that it was soft, really soft. I curved nicely but even applying Pro Oil dye was enough for the carving to raise back up and loose some definition. Should make good rustic bag leather though.

Before you place your W&C order, let me check out the H.O. from Sheridan Leather Outfitters. It's almost the same price (about 20 cents difference) and shipping shouldn't be much different. With my last piece from Goliger, the H.O. was great to work with. A little stiffer than W&C so for wet molding it was a little more work but on the tooling side of things it was probably my best carving experience ever. The H.O. takes and holds detail extremely well and even with 5/6 oz. I was able to get some great definition & depth, moreso than any leather I have used previously. Hopefully my recent explorations into different vendors can help folks like yourself. Here's a piece in progress carved on the H.O.:

Chris

[Dink]

New to me supplier, I recently bought a couple sides from American Leather Distributors (800-624-7642 or info@leathered.com) I have no long term experience with them to compare but with the two sides I got from them to try I was pretty happy with the usable yield as well as the temper for tooling.

[reddevil76]

Hey Reddevil,

I had the same experience with the Royal Meadow, I hand picked the nicest piece in the store - looked very clean and a very mellow, light color great for painting on. Once I cut, carved and dyed it about half a dozen spots showed up that didn't even show up when the piece was cased. I did notice though that it was soft, really soft. I curved nicely but even applying Pro Oil dye was enough for the carving to raise back up and loose some definition. Should make good rustic bag leather though.

Before you place your W&C order, let me check out the H.O. from Sheridan Leather Outfitters. It's almost the same price (about 20 cents difference) and shipping shouldn't be much different. With my last piece from Goliger, the H.O. was great to work with. A little stiffer than W&C so for wet molding it was a little more work but on the tooling side of things it was probably my best carving experience ever. The H.O. takes and holds detail extremely well and even with 5/6 oz. I was able to get some great definition & depth, moreso than any leather I have used previously. Hopefully my recent explorations into different vendors can help folks like yourself. Here's a piece in progress carved on the H.O.:

Chris

The HO I had, not only had blemishes, but large areas of loose flesh. And this was on the back. It was on the belly, I could have accepted it. Hopefully the A grade not only does away with the blemishes, but also the loose flesh problem.

Thanks Chris for the update. I have just ordered a Sheridan carving book and a Leather Wranglers blade. Once I start carving seriously, those properties you mentioned would be important for consideration.

[cem]

. Hopefully my recent explorations into different vendors can help folks like yourself.

Chris

Thanks for the info Chris, it's definately helping me though the overseas suppliers for Hermann Oak are definately looking to be out of my price range. Not their fault the shipping is so high but for me to have spend about $17 sq foot combining the leather & shipping is just a bit too much to bear. Thankfully though it looks like one of the Australian distributors carries A grade so I'm hoping their postage is fairly reasonable even though they are still on the other side of the country.

Clair

[cem]

Just wondering would you guys consider this A grade Hermann Oak, it was bought here in Australia I'm not going to say who the company it is at the moment as I haven't spoken to them about it yet as I wanted get you guys opinions first as this is the first Hermann Oak side I've bought having only seen pieces before.

For A grade leather I'm just a bit surprised by the deep gouges, uneven colour and the marks throughout it, I've bought plenty of lower grade sides and they have been cleaner than this. Is this normal for Hermann Oak A grade or have I just been given the first piece off the pile they couldn't sell locally so decided to offload it on someone interstate who probably wouldn't bother with trying to send it back. I've been happy with the leather I've bought locally but wanted to try the Hermann Oak for that nice golden colour you get after oiling. With the other leather it isn't possible to do that but after this side I'm a bit disappointed and think I might just go back to trying to get the colour by dyeing.

My father in law who is in the meat trade and buys his own cattle for slaughter also wasn't too impressed with it for being labelled A grade like Spinner am I expecting too much for the A grade tag.

I've zoomed in on the worst parts but there are marks throughout the whole side it probably looks better in the photos than what it actually is, the bottom third is barely usable where those gouges are it's barely a mm thick and for quite a bit before and after them there is a big variation in thickness which I haven't seen before even in the belly section on the previous sides I've bought, that leather also had the hanging marks trimmed out.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and if possible a photo of what you guys consider A grade for Hermann Oak would work wonders for what I should be looking for with it.

Thank you,

Clair

Edited November 27, 2011 by cem

[reddevil76]

Just wondering would you guys consider this A grade Hermann Oak, it was bought here in Australia I'm not going to say who the company it is at the moment as I haven't spoken to them about it yet as I wanted get you guys opinions first as this is the first Hermann Oak side I've bought having only seen pieces before.

For A grade leather I'm just a bit surprised by the deep gouges, uneven colour and the marks throughout it, I've bought plenty of lower grade sides and they have been cleaner than this. Is this normal for Hermann Oak A grade or have I just been given the first piece off the pile they couldn't sell locally so decided to offload it on someone interstate who probably wouldn't bother with trying to send it back. I've been happy with the leather I've bought locally but wanted to try the Hermann Oak for that nice golden colour you get after oiling. With the other leather it isn't possible to do that but after this side I'm a bit disappointed and think I might just go back to trying to get the colour by dyeing.

My father in law who is in the meat trade and buys his own cattle for slaughter also wasn't too impressed with it for being labelled A grade like Spinner am I expecting too much for the A grade tag.

I've zoomed in on the worst parts but there are marks throughout the whole side it probably looks better in the photos than what it actually is, the bottom third is barely usable where those gouges are it's barely a mm thick and for quite a bit before and after them there is a big variation in thickness which I haven't seen before even in the belly section on the previous sides I've bought, that leather also had the hanging marks trimmed out.

Any help would be greatly appreciated and if possible a photo of what you guys consider A grade for Hermann Oak would work wonders for what I should be looking for with it.

Thank you,

Clair

We'd have to wait for Chris to chime in on the A grade he has in comparison to this.

I have only seen Craftsman grade HO which I bought from Springfield. Way worse than this. Those lines looks more like wrinkles which have been "ironed" out at the tannery.

After Chris's recent post, I was kind of gearing up to order A grade HO despite my last bad experience. But looking at your pics, I am kind of wary of HO leather now. Or is it that most of their leather destined for export are usually those that is worse of the pile?

[hidepounder]

Chris,

I've been using Goliger Leather for several years now and I just can't express how happy I have been with them. They are a family owned and operated company and are more than willing to spend time sorting hides to get me exactly what I want. I haven't shopped prices so I have no idea how they compare to other companies and I really don't care. I am far more concerned with quality and service. Cheryl, the owner, almost always answers the phone. Her son in law, Carlos, handles the leather and is very willing and available to speak with you about your needs. And my leather almost always goes out the day I call. I highly recommend them!

All the same things can be said of Sheridan Leather Outfitters. Like Elton said, they are a small family owned company, so when you call you are dealing with folks who really appreciate your business. Luke and Vandy really know leather. They understand what you need and will sort sides to get you what you need. I would expect Sheridan Leather Outfitters and Goligers to be fairly close in price.

If you talk to either of these companies I'm betting they will be able to help you.

Bobby

[leatheroo]

cem, thanks for your post...i was going to order some HO as well, but after seeing what was sent to you, i dont think i will order. I usually order morgan oak from lefflers and it is usually cleaner than what was sent to you.

cheers

[Ladykahu]

I saw the morgan oak at lefflers last time I was there! there where some nice hides !! .. and a couple I wouldn't have picked if I was choosing. Do you go in and select yourself ? or mail order? They are out of my price range until I start selling a bit more stuff, but its given me something to compare with in the mean time and seeing as how I can get in to hand pick, I just spend ages going through the 'cheaper' options till I find something usable.

Natalie

[leatheroo]

sometimes i order and sometimes i go and pick, but on the whole i have been happy with their quality...if you buy alot of products it is worth joining their wholesale club and you get 33% off the cost of most things. the membership is $35 a year from memory.

cheers

[Spinner]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this post in a while folks, it's been busy as heck lately. I did order a hide from Goliger and one from SLO and both of them were excellent quality worthy of A grade status. I meant to get pictures of them but orders required they get cut up pretty quick and 1 1/2 hides are already turned into tank bibs and out the door. I couldn't tell the difference between the two; the temper, color and clarity of both hides were equally nice and price was almost identical including shipping ($200 each for 22-24 sq. ft of 5/6oz. including shipping to L.A.)

Now the personal dilemma comes in...as it turns out HO is excellent for carving and I have literally had the best time carving, cutting, etc. on both hides. The problem came in with the temper being a touch too stiff for the type of wet forming I do. So I'll have to choose when doing projects, HO for the flatter projects and W&C or something similar for the large formed tank bibs.

Clair - that is not what my recent A grade hides looked like. Yours appears to have a lot more stretch marks in the belly area and definitely more marks/scars on the body. I'd guess that either that's an A grade from a lower tannery or someone grabbed a B/C off the pile by mistake.

[cem]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this post in a while folks, it's been busy as heck lately. I did order a hide from Goliger and one from SLO and both of them were excellent quality worthy of A grade status. I meant to get pictures of them but orders required they get cut up pretty quick and 1 1/2 hides are already turned into tank bibs and out the door. I couldn't tell the difference between the two; the temper, color and clarity of both hides were equally nice and price was almost identical including shipping ($200 each for 22-24 sq. ft of 5/6oz. including shipping to L.A.)

Now the personal dilemma comes in...as it turns out HO is excellent for carving and I have literally had the best time carving, cutting, etc. on both hides. The problem came in with the temper being a touch too stiff for the type of wet forming I do. So I'll have to choose when doing projects, HO for the flatter projects and W&C or something similar for the large formed tank bibs.

Clair - that is not what my recent A grade hides looked like. Yours appears to have a lot more stretch marks in the belly area and definitely more marks/scars on the body. I'd guess that either that's an A grade from a lower tannery or someone grabbed a B/C off the pile by mistake.

Thanks Spinner, when I originally asked this place about Hermann Oak they said they only sell A grade so I'm not sure whats going on, whether they are keeping the best stuff for themselves as they manufacture as well or it's not Hermann Oak. In my emails to them I've specifically asked for a nice clean hide as it was my first time using it, sending this to a first time customer who was likely to become a repeat buyer doesn't really say much about their quality control which is annoying when we don't have a lot of choice for the stuff down here.

Is there any way to tell if it is actually Hermann Oak are they stamped on the back or anything, come with tags etc

I would love to use the places you and Hidepounder mentioned but I'm not selling enough to be able to afford that sort of postage at the moment. I think for now I'm going to go back to my local place and pick my hides out in person and be reserved by the fact I'm only going to get that sweet golden colour by trying to dye it.

I really wish there was a vegetable tannery in West Oz as my father in law said he could give me all the hides I wanted from some nice beef that wouldn't have gone anywhere near barb wire, somehow I don't think the local council would like it if I set up a tannery in my tiny backyard ha ha.

Cheers,

Clair

[reddevil76]

Hi Clair, being in Singapore, my interest was piqued when I read about this Morgan Oak as shipping from Oz to Singapore should be cheaper. But when I saw the prices, it seems quite high.

You and me share the same burden of postage. But with A grade HO at US$9+ and A grade W&C at US$7+, even with postage, it still works out cheaper than if I buy Morgan Oak from Oz.

The postage itself looks daunting (about $60-$70USD for a 24sq ft side for me), but when I even it out as a total cost per sq ft, it provides a better comparison.

[cem]

Hi Clair, being in Singapore, my interest was piqued when I read about this Morgan Oak as shipping from Oz to Singapore should be cheaper. But when I saw the prices, it seems quite high.

You and me share the same burden of postage. But with A grade HO at US$9+ and A grade W&C at US$7+, even with postage, it still works out cheaper than if I buy Morgan Oak from Oz.

The postage itself looks daunting (about $60-$70USD for a 24sq ft side for me), but when I even it out as a total cost per sq ft, it provides a better comparison.

If the postage was $60-70USD for me I would of jumped at it I could afford that but it was quoted at well over $200 USD from one place for one side, the other place was better but still in the $110-140USD for two sides and I can't justify that much on leather I haven't been able to try properly yet as I have a specific thing I need it to be able to do kind of like what Spinner has though not with such big pieces.

If I decide to go down the Hermann Oak path again in the future I might see if it would be easier to send a clicker knife over there and have them click the parts for me from A grade and then send them over. For that though I would have to weigh up their cost of labour and postage vs the full side postage.

Also I just watched the Hermann Oak video on you tube and although I can't be fully certain I don't think this side is Hermann Oak unless they have changed the way they hang their hides as there are too many hanging marks on it and it's not trimmed the way they do it. They also talk about using male steers and this side most definitely is female, I just don't know whether I should contact the company about it or let it go what would you guys do ?

Cheers,

Clair

Edited November 29, 2011 by cem

[reddevil76]

If the postage was $60-70USD for me I would of jumped at it I could afford that but it was quoted at well over $200 USD from one place for one side, the other place was better but still in the $110-140USD for two sides and I can't justify that much on leather I haven't been able to try properly yet as I have a specific thing I need it to be able to do kind of like what Spinner has though not with such big pieces.

If I decide to go down the Hermann Oak path again in the future I might see if it would be easier to send a clicker knife over there and have them click the parts for me from A grade and then send them over. For that though I would have to weigh up their cost of labour and postage vs the full side postage.

Also I just watched the Hermann Oak video on you tube and although I can't be fully certain I don't think this side is Hermann Oak unless they have changed the way they hang their hides as there are too many hanging marks on it and it's not trimmed the way they do it. They also talk about using male steers and this side most definitely is female, I just don't know whether I should contact the company about it or let it go what would you guys do ?

Cheers,

Clair

$200 USD for postage is too much.. I can't understand why is it so much for you. Singapore and Australia is almost the same distance from US.

I think it'd probably be better off for you to buy Morgan Oak if postage is so much.

There is an ebay seller, I forgot the id, who sells leather by the sq foot on ebay, It's alot more expensive to just buy a sq foot, but it allows you to try a variety.