My Experience With A Factory-Direct Chinese 441 Clone

[amuckart]

After my thread inquiring about the quality of drop-shipped machines from China I did a lot of asking around and checked the prices of a whole lot of options, including buying from Steve at Cobra or Bob at Toledo Industrial. I priced out buying a Highlead head from a local mechanic/importer (an old school chap who wears a tie and waistcoat in the workshop). I looked at a Seiko CH-8 that I talked to Dan at Campbell-Randall about feet for, and I costed out buying just a head and building a stand v.s. buying both. I even thought about just saving up for a Campbell high lift, but that fell into the Wife Acceptance category of "you can buy it, but you'll be sleeping in the garage with it". One day though...

While I was working through these options people on this board, and all the dealers I pestered with questions were incredibly helpful so this is a public thank you to you Art, Wiz, Bob, Steve, Dan, Donna, and everyone who took the time to help educate me.

A while ago I met someone in NZ who'd bought a Hightex (the brand Cowboy machines are badged with outside the US). Their initial impression of the machine was, to put it politely, that it showed no evidence of quality control. They also had trouble getting support from the seller, who wasn't based in NZ. That put me off the brand, but since then I found an NZ-based Cowboy reseller, and the owners of that machine stripped, cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted it and said it works well now.

After covering and costing out a lot of options, I bit the bullet and ordered a 441-AE knowing it was going to come to me straight from the factory in China and need at least a jolly good tune up. I wasn't in for the same unbox-and-go experience someone buying a Cowboy from Bob would get but cost, and buying from an NZ-based reseller (which meant as a private individual I get the benefits of New Zealand's good consumer protection laws if it was a total lemon) were the deciding factors. The reseller I dealt with here is a manufacturer of skydiving equipment who uses a lot of Hightex machines. He was responsive and helpful, and barring the shipping being quite a bit over what he quoted, I found the whole process good. In the end the shipping was a small fraction of the cost and not a major issue.

A hair under NZ$3000, tax and shipping included, got me the machine, stand, motor & speed reducer, all the optional feet and needle plates, sewing guide, and even a spare set of blanket feet to modify into an inline foot set. The only bit I didn't get was the table attachment. The next best option I priced out was over half again as expensive, and for that money I was prepared to sink the time into getting the machine working and paying for professional help if required.

Delivery and Unboxing

A couple of weeks ago I heard from the seller that the machine was in the country so I paid the shipping and taxes and started waiting for it to show up. Unfortunately the freight forwarders with the machine were muppets, but after ten days of "It'll be there before 4pm tomorrow, honest" it finally arrived earlier this week.

That's when I hit the second snag, rather than reading the labels on the boxes and the instructions with the shipment, the freighters just put three random boxes on a pallet and sent them to me. I got my 441 head fine, but found two clutch motors and a Sailmaster zigzag machine in the boxes I was expecting the stand in. Annoying, but no fault of Hightex or the chap I bought the machine from.

The machines arrived on a pallet in cardboard boxes. The boxes had taken a bit of rough handling but the internal polystyrene liners were undamaged. In the main box was the head, manual and parts, and a smaller box with the wheel and thread stand. Most bits were in plastic bags.

The machine was greased for shipping and wrapped in plastic. They could have done a better job greasing and wrapping the hand wheel, it had some rust on it when I unboxed it.

After checking everything looked to be there I stripped all the minor parts off, removed the shuttle race, bobbin winder and covers, and took it all out the back with a couple of cans of brake cleaner and some good synthetic oil (I use CRC Syntex on everything from featherweights to my Pearson, it's great stuff)

(sorry about the recycling in the background)

Before going after the bobbin winder with brake cleaner I took the rubber tyre off, but other than that I just saturated the machine and flushed everything thoroughly with the cleaner. It did the trick, the runoff was yellow-brown and had bits in. Two cans was just about enough but three would have been better. After that I carefully but thoroughly oiled the whole thing with Syntex, put the hand wheel on and it all turned over perfectly smoothly with no clunking or binding.

Next, reassembly tuning and threading for the first time.

[dirtclod]

At least you have something to bargin with ( the extra machine and motor ) to get your stand if they give you any trouble.

[MADMAX22]

Great writeup about your experience so far. I imagine it will be great overall if you get it up and running good. I got mine from Neil at Neils saddlery. Thing runs like a champ now that I have learned how to properly use it (pretty much my first sewing machine besides a POS home unit for sewing my uniforms). They are great machines IMHO.

[RWB]

I guess I am slightly confused...... Why did you decide to get that machine straight from China? On the Cobra website that same machine is priced out at $2500. That come with everything, stand, head, motor, and it is pre-tuned with all the bugs worked out. Not to mention that you get all the service that Cobra offers. I'm not trying to be critical, just curious. Is shipping from the US to NZ more than $500?

I don't own a Cobra so this isn't a sales pitch for them, again I'm just curious.

Ross Brunk

[amuckart]

Hi Ross,

I guess I am slightly confused...... Why did you decide to get that machine straight from China? On the Cobra website that same machine is priced out at $2500. That come with everything, stand, head, motor, and it is pre-tuned with all the bugs worked out. Not to mention that you get all the service that Cobra offers. I'm not trying to be critical, just curious. Is shipping from the US to NZ more than $500?

Don't forget my local currency is worth less than the USD, and I'm having to pay taxes on arrival. A Cobra machine is US$2495 + US$650 shipping + around US$400 for the additional feet and plates I got in addition to the stock ones. That's over US$3500 before I've even paid the 15% tax and local shipping costs. After tax and exchange rates that adds up to over NZ$4800. The machine I bought was just under NZ$3000, at my door with all the tax and shipping paid.

That NZ$1800 buys lot of my time to set up the machine and tune it. Even if I had to buy, say, a new hook and pay for a local professional to help me if I got really stuck, I'm still coming out ahead. I'm reasonably handy with machines so provided the machine is basically sound and absent any really serious manufacturing defects I figured I would be able to get it going even if that meant taking it all apart and reassembling it clean as my friends had to do with theirs.

Yes, this was a minor gamble, given the variable nature of ex-factory QA, but I knew that in the event of serious defects (which I haven't found) I could call on the warranty through the NZ-based vendor and get them fixed. That was a not-insignificant factor in the decision.

If I'd been buying a machine for full-time professional use I'd have spent the extra money and bought a Highlead from the local importer/mechanic here and gotten a higher-quality machine fully set up and with local support, but that option was getting on for twice what I ended up paying and I'm a hobbyist so that wasn't justifiable.

[Techsew Ron]

If anything this shows the amount of work and effort that myself, Steve, Bob and other dealers put into machines before shipping them to a customer.

Dealing with overseas agents, customs, import taxes and fees, set up, tuning, adjustment, modifications, testing, assembly, shipping preparation etc involves countless hours of work!

Thanks for posting.

Ron

[amuckart]

If anything this shows the amount of work and effort that myself, Steve, Bob and other dealers put into machines before shipping them to a customer.

Dealing with overseas agents, customs, import taxes and fees, set up, tuning, adjustment, modifications, testing, assembly, shipping preparation etc involves countless hours of work!

Absolutely. If getting this machine up and sewing had been at all time sensitive, I'd be stuffed since I still don't have the stand and the vendor told me yesterday that the factory shipped the wrong motor with it - sending a clutch motor instead of the servo I ordered. That's not a huge problem for me, because I have a servo I can pull off an under-used machine here, but if I didn't have that it would be a major annoyance.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Very interesting. A lot of sewing dealers would like to bury their heads in the sand, and pretend that customers do not have options like this available to them. I've known quite a few folks who bring in machines direct, with mixed results. Some were less than thrilled, to say the least, and a few were happy with their purchase. I guess a lot has to go into what your level of expectations are and how handy you are with setting up sewing machines, more or less.

The one thing I can say for sure is this; when you buy a machine from China, factory direct, that machine is yours; good, bad, or ugly. Whatever problems the machine has are now YOUR problems, even if parts are missing, don't fit, don't work. And that's before you get into finishing off the machine and setting it up. And don't think that because you read about a positive experience on a message board, that your going to have the same positive experience as well; some factories have very little stability, and can have equipment arrive in all kinds of various conditions, from day to day, month to month, you get the idea.

I mean, they forgot sewing stand parts and sent a sewing machine additional instead? What the heck is that all about, in this case?

I DO want to back up a moment, and say that we sent some new Seiko equipment from the US into New Zealand last year, and I TOTALLY understand what amuckart is up against. In his case, with shipping, the exchange rate, and his sounding willing to do some work, he got a good machine at a good price.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Art]

Hi Gregg,

That is why I harp on knowing just which factory a machine came out of. This IS of paramount importance as the QC and even sometimes manufacturing can run from 0-10 on a scale of 2-8. Enough of that.

Even if the machine is from a lesser factory, a good sewing machine mechanic can usually put things right, especially on clones as parts are readily available. This is another reason to buy from an established dealer, they have real mechanics. Real mechanics are folks that work on machines all day, everyday. I am not a real sewing machine mechanic, and I don't think Wiz or Al can fly in that company either, we may be good, but not Tony (Cobra), Bob (Toledo), or Bobby (Toledo) good; I take care of laptop computers for a living, and Wiz does a little of everything, but is a musician. Your machine needs to come to you through the hands of a professional sewing machine mechanic, preferably the industrial variety. There isn't any way one of the brick and mortar guys is going to send you a machine in a box that hasn't been opened and gone through, and with someone like Tony or Bobby going through it, it will run well from the start.

Now for all you other 1/2 mechanics like me, who get some masochistic pleasure out of figuring what's up with a used or abused machine, the Internet may be for you.

Art

Very interesting. A lot of sewing dealers would like to bury their heads in the sand, and pretend that customers do not have options like this available to them. I've known quite a few folks who bring in machines direct, with mixed results. Some were less than thrilled, to say the least, and a few were happy with their purchase. I guess a lot has to go into what your level of expectations are and how handy you are with setting up sewing machines, more or less.

The one thing I can say for sure is this; when you buy a machine from China, factory direct, that machine is yours; good, bad, or ugly. Whatever problems the machine has are now YOUR problems, even if parts are missing, don't fit, don't work. And that's before you get into finishing off the machine and setting it up. And don't think that because you read about a positive experience on a message board, that your going to have the same positive experience as well; some factories have very little stability, and can have equipment arrive in all kinds of various conditions, from day to day, month to month, you get the idea.

I mean, they forgot sewing stand parts and sent a sewing machine additional instead? What the heck is that all about, in this case?

A DO want to back up a moment, and say that we sent some equipment from the US into New Zealand last year, and I TOTALLY understand what amuckart is up against. In his case, with shipping, the exchange rate, and his sounding willing to do some work, he got a good machine at a good price.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Art,

TSC-441 copies are a bit safer, you would think. You can find genuine and generic replacement parts, and usually the frame casting is going to be at least decent from one of the better factories. I've seen some more exotic stuff like heavy zig zag machines come direct that, IMO, were a complete disaster, and needed extensive work to function properly. And this is coming from a brand name everybody here knows very well.

[Art]

Gregg,

Some of the "Brand Name" machines from top factories are really from smaller factories inland. Some of these are quite good, usually. Even the "big" factories specialize to a high degree (their bread and butter stuff) and get "exotic" machines from other factories. AnKai makes a lot of stuff for the biggies that is simply re-badged (well it never was badged) and shipped. Nobody over there makes everything, unless slapping your badge on it means making it.

Art

Art,

TSC-441 copies are a bit safer, you would think. You can find genuine and generic replacement parts, and usually the frame casting is going to be at least decent from one of the better factories. I've seen some more exotic stuff like heavy zig zag machines come direct that, IMO, were a complete disaster, and needed extensive work to function properly. And this is coming from a brand name everybody here knows very well.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Gregg,

Some of the "Brand Name" machines from top factories are really from smaller factories inland. Some of these are quite good, usually. Even the "big" factories specialize to a high degree (their bread and butter stuff) and get "exotic" machines from other factories. AnKai makes a lot of stuff for the biggies that is simply re-badged (well it never was badged) and shipped. Nobody over there makes everything, unless slapping your badge on it means making it.

Art

Yup, no doubt. Singer brought in Adlers & Seikos at one time. Lots of brands bring in machines from all over the place. Even IMO the most established brand by todays standards, Juki, has literally hundreds of suppliers for parts OEM that go into their machines. A lot of this came about when Japan had that natural disaster a while back. People are mistaken if they believe everything is all made under one roof, and this has been the case for decades, not just with the advent of Chinese equipment.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[amuckart]

A Bit of Background

Having read the comments so far, I figured that a little bit of background about me might help put this all in context. I got into leatherwork through medieval reenactment and pretty much hand stitch everything. Mostly I make reproduction shoes, but I want to start making more modern stuff including casework, as well as do some machine work on reenactment goods where it won't show. I'm strictly an amateur and don't need this machine in any particular timeframe, or for large-scale production work. I originally wanted a new machine that would Just Work out of the box, but research showed me that was something I couldn't afford.

I am not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination - I'm a Pointy Haired Boss at a telco where I spent 10 of the previous 11 years as an IP network engineer. I'm an inveterate tinkerer with machinery and a collector of sewing machines large and small (my house is approximately 50% sewing machines by volume). I've done a bit of metal work, made a few knives and a handful of tools. I can gas weld and braze, though I got rid of my torch because acetylene and bottle hire got too expensive for the amount I did it. I'm lucky enough to know actual mechanics who I can call on if I get really stuck, and people with machine tools if I need to modify or repair any parts (If you think rebuilding a sewing machine is a challenge, try a 100 year old steam tram!)

This isn't the first sewing/leather machine I'll have worked on, but it is the first big compound feed one. Among other things I have rebuilt or refurbished several domestic treadle machines and a couple of crank splitters. I've serviced and tuned up a Seiko STH-8 for leather, and taken a Dania 150 curved needle outsoler from a frozen gunked up hulk to re-timed and working. I've also got a Pearson #6 and an A1 in pieces awaiting the soda blaster. None of those would have been possible without the expertise on this forum and the Crispin Colloquy.

So, that's the context in which I bought this machine. This isn't a course I would recommend for someone without any experience servicing machines, or who needed the machine in a specific timeframe. If you can't set needle height and hook timing by eye, buy your machine from someone who has done the setup! I still don't know if I'll get the machine going, but if I can't I'll pay the mechanic I mentioned in my initial post to do it for me and watch him like a hawk.

Reassembly and Tuning

Having cleaned all the shipping grease off of the machine and liberally re-lubricated it with Syntex I got to reassembling the thing. Almost immediately after starting the reassembly I tossed out the screwdrivers that came with the machine - they're worse than useless. The tip twisted the first time I used the big one and they don't fit the screws properly.

It was interesting to observe the build quality of the machine as I reassembled it. It is very much as I expected on a machine at this price point; the machined surfaces are even and clean and the castings aren't bad but are only machined on mating surfaces. The general fit is good and I didn't find any major loose parts or screws but there are minor bits of fit and finish that just need a little bit more time spent on them.

The castings of the feet and needle plates are pretty good. They're finished to a high polish on the surfaces that matter but with the sort of polished finish that belies the fact that they didn't see much in the way of surface grinding to fine grit before going to polish. That doesn't affect their utility but it's an interesting contrast with the standard needle plate which is a fine and even satin finish and seems to be of a different quality, possibly because it's stamped from sheet rather than cast.

The double-toe presser foot didn't want to go on the bar at first and needed a bit of filing before it went on, likewise one of the inner feet (they sent me two) needed going after with a 5.5mm drill bit before it would go on the presser foot bar.

The paint shows evidence of insufficient surface prep in places. This isn't surprising on a machine at this price since good surface prep for paint is very time consuming, and therefore expensive. I think that's something which sets more expensive machines apart; the Highleads I've seen have had really good paint, and I've got old Pfaff and Seiko machines with paint that is still perfectly good (if dirty). The paint on the hand wheel was showing signs of light rust through when I unpacked it which cleaned off fine. Again, something I'm prepared to live with for a machine at this price point, and not out of the bounds of what I was expecting.

The one place the paint on the body of the machine failed in a way that I might have to care about is on the corner of the bobbin winder assembly where the paint cracked off as soon as I got the screw even slightly tight. If it bugs me enough I'll take it along to the local powder coater with one of the loads of other parts I'm getting done and see if they have a coating that matches.

The bobbin winder slipped a lot when I tried it at first. It is driven by a disk on the top shaft on the machine bearing on a rubber tyre on the inside of the bobbin winder mechanism. I got it working fine by loosening the grub screws fastening the disk to the shaft and moving it a fraction towards the tyre. The bobbin winder has a little thread cutter/clip that should cut the freshly-wound bobbin thread and hold the end until you do the next one. It had a bit of rust, having missed out on the shipping grease treatment and needed sharpening to actually work. A couple of minutes with a Dremel and it was sharp and clean.

After checking with all the foot combinations I realised the outer foot presser bar was ever so slightly squint, not enough to interfere, but just enough to bug me on the bit I'll be staring at most so I rotated it so the feet all line up square now. That was probably unnecessary but once I'd noticed it I couldn't not straighten it.

One part that took me a while to figure out was the tension release which wasn't connected into the foot raising mechanism when I unboxed the machine. It took a bit of staring to click as to what it was when it was just dangling off the side of the head:

It's supposed to be connected like this:

What it does is that when you raise the foot it wedges the main tension discs open so the thread can be pulled through, allowing the work to be withdrawn from the machine.

The last oddity I encountered was the roller guide. The regular little plate that sits to the right of the needle plate has a rebate milled into it for a part it covers that isn't flush with the frame of the machine. The roller guide doesn't have that rebate so it's a bit fiddly to bolt on. Being the only one I've seen I don't know if they're all like that though. The slot in the guide isn't quite milled as long as I'd like so the closest the roller gets is about 5-6 mm away from the inner foot. At some point I'll take the part along to a friend who has a small mill and fix the rebate and slot the way I want.

Aside from those relatively minor things, the machine went back together just fine and I have no major complaints with it.

Getting it Sewing

I can't really get it sewing properly until I have the stand and motor, but with the machine temporarily clamped to a table I can turn it over by hand and make sure it at least builds a stitch Ok and get the lift of the alternating feet adjusted etc. The only heavy threads I have at the moment are #6 linen and #8 core-spun cotton/nylon so I'm not going to do a lot until I've got some bonded poly and thread lube.

The bobbins are cast aluminium and seem perfectly good. The hook is pretty much what I expected, which is to say I think it'll work with a bit of fiddling about, but I'll replace it with a Hirose one as soon as I've got the money. It intermittently catches the thread either on the spring or on the back of the hook as it counter-rotates. It's possible this is caused by a timing problem, but if it is it's one that's too subtle for me to work out just now since the timing looks fine to me.

The finish of the bobbin case under the tension spring also leaves a bit to be desired and intermittently shreds the thread when withdrawing the work from the machine. This might well be operator error but if I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong I'll go after it with the dremel and polish the thread path, being careful not to sharpen any of the edges.

That's about it until I get the stand, which to my frustration still hasn't shown up thanks to ill-timed leave on the part of the vendor's Christchurch staff member whose site the shipment is at.

Edited November 9, 2011 by amuckart

[amuckart]

Very interesting. A lot of sewing dealers would like to bury their heads in the sand, and pretend that customers do not have options like this available to them. I've known quite a few folks who bring in machines direct, with mixed results. Some were less than thrilled, to say the least, and a few were happy with their purchase. I guess a lot has to go into what your level of expectations are and how handy you are with setting up sewing machines, more or less.

I think there's value in showing what this option really means, and perhaps I'm naïve, but I'd be surprised if any vendors were disappointed I'm posting this (beyond the fact that they spent time giving me quotes and I didn't end up purchasing from them). There is real value in what you vendors do with the machines between getting them from China and sending them to the final owner.

If I'd been in the USA I wouldn't even have looked at this option. This is not something that someone who wants a machine that Just Works should do, and if I hadn't already worked on a bunch of machines I would not have gone down this route either after what people have told me about experiences with these machines. I'm also aware I may still need to pay a professional mechanic to get it working for me and service it in the future, but I'm prepared for that if I need to.

The one thing I can say for sure is this; when you buy a machine from China, factory direct, that machine is yours; good, bad, or ugly. Whatever problems the machine has are now YOUR problems, even if parts are missing, don't fit, don't work. And that's before you get into finishing off the machine and setting it up. And don't think that because you read about a positive experience on a message board, that your going to have the same positive experience as well; some factories have very little stability, and can have equipment arrive in all kinds of various conditions, from day to day, month to month, you get the idea.

Ahh, I should clarify this point. I didn't buy this machine direct from the factory, I purchased it from a reseller in New Zealand (I have quotes and invoices for it from an NZ registered company). That reseller is not a mechanic though - he runs a business making and selling parachute rigging and canopies using Hightex machines. The machine was shipped to me directly from the factory in China, but as far as the warranty, and NZ consumer protection laws are concerned I bought it from an NZ company. Because I'm a private purchaser, not a business, if it isn't fit for purpose then the NZ vendor is obligated by law to sort it out. That's the only reason I did it this way, if I hadn't discovered that option I would have saved up and gone with one of the other options I had explored.

I mean, they forgot sewing stand parts and sent a sewing machine additional instead? What the heck is that all about, in this case?

Shipping the wrong type of motor was the factory's fault, the other bits were the freight forwarder stuffing things up. My machine wasn't as shipment on its own, it came in with other things the reseller had ordered at the same time. The freight forwarder received the whole shipment at the docks and rather than following their instructions they just sent three random boxes to me and the rest to GLH in Queenstown where the rest of the shipment was destined for. In hindsight I think it would have made more sense for them to send everything to Queenstown, sort and verify it and ship my bits back up to me in Auckland, even though that would have added cost and delay.

I DO want to back up a moment, and say that we sent some new Seiko equipment from the US into New Zealand last year, and I TOTALLY understand what amuckart is up against. In his case, with shipping, the exchange rate, and his sounding willing to do some work, he got a good machine at a good price.

Thanks. So far, so good. The real test will be feeding heavy leather through it under power though. Until I can actually use it to make things, I'll reserve judgement.

[amuckart]

Even if the machine is from a lesser factory, a good sewing machine mechanic can usually put things right, especially on clones as parts are readily available. This is another reason to buy from an established dealer, they have real mechanics. Real mechanics are folks that work on machines all day, everyday. I am not a real sewing machine mechanic, and I don't think Wiz or Al can fly in that company either

Me, not even close. Hell, most of what I know I've learned from posts by people like you, Bob, Wiz and Al Saguto over on the Crispin Colloquy. I'd never do this for money on someone else's machine.

Now for all you other 1/2 mechanics like me, who get some masochistic pleasure out of figuring what's up with a used or abused machine, the Internet may be for you.

That's about right, but finding a copy of the Juki TSC-441 engineers/adjusters manual online made this particular one a bit less painful. Reassembling the cam stack on an old seized up Elna Supermatic without instructions or 'before' photos, that was masochism.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I think there's value in showing what this option really means,... Until I can actually use it to make things, I'll reserve judgement.

Super cool thread and posts amuckart, I very much value the experices customers have with thier sewing prodcuts, and what the real outcomes are. In my positon, I get to hear a lot of stories, and often am left wonding how thing really went down!

One of the somewhat surprising things I found on this brand/factory is that the hook, from the one that I seen was titanium nitrate (same hook, but different machine) that look good, but, was not. Soft metal, not genuine Koban or Hirose for sure. If the hook is not made properly, good luck getting the machine to do much of anything. On the new out of the box Cowboy model we seen that we fixed up, one of the first things we did is handed the hook back to the customer, so they could inspect, and put a new hook in, genuine Koban in this case.

I'll continue to follow this thread, really apprecate this reporting.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[gary jackson]

Me, not even close. Hell, most of what I know I've learned from posts by people like you, Bob, Wiz and Al Saguto over on the Crispin Colloquy. I'd never do this for money on someone else's machine.

That's about right, but finding a copy of the Juki TSC-441 engineers/adjusters manual online made this particular one a bit less painful. Reassembling the cam stack on an old seized up Elna Supermatic without instructions or 'before' photos, that was masochism.

Happy New Year Al, have just caught up with your Cowboy posts , would like to come over and have a look sometime I`m flat out with Rodeos at the moment but will call sometime in Feb.