About Importing Endangered Species

[xtine]

Good Morning -

I am not a leatherworker at all. Just a novelist who put in a plot device she doesn't fully understand. I am hoping to pick all your brains on the below questions.

I appreciate the time you would take to help me with all or some of the below. I know everyone is busy, and I'm not really a proper member here, nor am I a leatherworker. So I hope you can forgive the intrusion....okay here goes!

*Is there an endangered species skin that can be easily confusedwith a really nice version of another, permitted skin?

*What is a CITES cert? (I'm sure I'm saying this wrong) Is this something that will let an endangeredspecies skin through customs? How can it be allowed at all? What do they haveto certify? This seems crazy, but I’m totally uneducated on the subject. (maybeyou have a good link to the info?)

*Are ALL skins checked at customs? I’d like it if a small amount got throughand then the big shipment is blocked.

*What skin would you recommend? I’d like it to be so luxuriousthat when you touch it you say, “oh my god this is the nicest leather I haveEVER touched.” And what country would it be from? I can easily have it comefrom one place, be dyed/tanned in another and shipped from a third – possiblywith a third treatment on it if necessary. No problem for the story.

Thanks in advance for your help.

You can check out my website at http://fashionismurder.com (the "murder" part refers to the murder mystery aspect of the books)

And you can look at the first book in the series here....http://www.amazon.com/Dead-New-Black-Fashion-Mysteries/dp/1466338121/

Have a great new year!

[catskin]

You may have as the saying goes, painted yourself into a corner, or in your case written.

The reason I say that is because almost any skin can be made to VERY closely resemble almost any other skin by the way it is tanned and treated afterwards. For example common cowhide could be made be ALMOST indistinguishable from any exotic leather. So much so that it would almost never be noticed by customs and would come through easily. It is a fact that almost all leathers sold in fashion as EXOTIC are in fact just made to look that way.

Sorry if this not what you want to learn but it is just fact.

I guess you will just have to use your imagination and create some fictional leather to get caught by customs or kill your victim.

[Sovran81]

There was a recent case I saw on a nature channel regarding a man in Alaska that was attacked by what appeared to be a brown bear. He shot the bear and following fish and game regulations informed the dept. The bear was confiscated pending species determination and record keeping. DNA testing proved it to not be a brown bear but a cross species of a protected animal. Mind you the bear was shot in self defense, but he has been informed that he faces heavy fines and possible imprisonment for killing a protected species that could only be determined by DNA testing. This is all before hide treatment. I can imagine the difficulties after tanning, dying and embossing as Catskin explained.

Good luck with the book. It sounds like you have artistic license here.

[HellfireJack]

*Is there an endangered species skin that can be easily confused with a really nice version of another, permitted skin?

As far as leather goes (I'm going to assume you mean a hide with the hair removed) I would also assume that custom agents the world over rely on the paperwork rather than visual identification. A hide with hair on it (fur) might be different but I would also assume that custom agents still rely on documentation rather than visual inspection of the actual hides for species. As pointed out one can be made to look like another as well but, that aside, most violators of CITES will not be using customs to move their black market products into CITES member states.

*What is a CITES cert? (I'm sure I'm saying this wrong) Is this something that will let an endangered species skin through customs? How can it be allowed at all? What do they have to certify? This seems crazy, but I'm totally uneducated on the subject. (maybe you have a good link to the info?)

First read this: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php

It's the mechanics of how CITES works.

Here are the appendixes: http://www.cites.org...011/E-Dec22.pdf

You also should check all of the reservation that are made to CITES by it's member states.

http://www.cites.org...app/reserve.php

These are animals that some countries do not believe should be controlled by CITES. Any reservation made exempts that country from issues when dealing with that animal. It is a free pass. Also remember that CITES is not a global legal device. There are still 20+ countries that are not members. These countries can freely trade in anything their country allows.

Then read this: http://library.fws.g...rmits-certs.pdf

It lists the different types of certificates and what they allow to be imported/exported (As far as the US Fish and Wildlife agency is concerned)

Yes, a CITES cert allows products from certain endangered animals to be traded. There are a few reason that some trade is still allowed. That's the purpose of certifications.

Pre-CITES certs would be the most prevalent I assume since people still deal in ivory products and skins that were taken before CITES existed.

*Are ALL skins checked at customs? I'd like it if a small amount got through and then the big shipment is blocked.

Yes, All shipments that pass fully through customs would be checked. There are still probably a few ways to get illegal contraband through customs. Whatever you choose.

*What skin would you recommend? I'd like it to be so luxurious that when you touch it you say, "oh my god this is the nicest leather I have EVER touched." And what country would it be from? I can easily have it come from one place, be dyed/tanned in another and shipped from a third – possibly with a third treatment on it if necessary. No problem for the story.

Your best bet would be to choose something on Appendix I of CITES. Then you have 175 countries to play around with.

Skins and furs would be most likely be tanned in their country of origin. The lure involved in trading in illegal animal products is in their rarity more so than how they feel or even look.

[Art]

Hi Joe,

If you are talking about Jim Martel, he was hunting on a polar bear tag in Canada in 2006. I haven't heard of another hybrid harvest. Taking a hybrid under any condition (you had a tag for a bear in the mix, or the bear had a non-specific tag for you) would not result in a violation. Self defense, nomatter what the species is not a violation of US law or State laws. Jim Martel was returned the cape, head, and paws after it was determined it was a hybrid of Grizzly (father) and Polar (mother for which he had a legal tag).

As for Christine's question, Italian calf is probably the most luxurious leather, seldom subject to misidentification, and not subject to CITES. For something more subject to your type scenario, I would suggest the Lizard species, used in smaller leather items like wallets and handbags where it is hard to tell some of them apart unless you have worked with them a while. I can't tell any of the alligator/crocodile/caimen species apart when they are just skins, much less finished products.

Good luck in your quest, I don't think there will be many readers aware if you take a little license.

Art

There was a recent case I saw on a nature channel regarding a man in Alaska that was attacked by what appeared to be a brown bear. He shot the bear and following fish and game regulations informed the dept. The bear was confiscated pending species determination and record keeping. DNA testing proved it to not be a brown bear but a cross species of a protected animal. Mind you the bear was shot in self defense, but he has been informed that he faces heavy fines and possible imprisonment for killing a protected species that could only be determined by DNA testing. This is all before hide treatment. I can imagine the difficulties after tanning, dying and embossing as Catskin explained.

Good luck with the book. It sounds like you have artistic license here.

[busted]

Good Morning -

I am not a leatherworker at all. Just a novelist who put in a plot device she doesn't fully understand. I am hoping to pick all your brains on the below questions.

I appreciate the time you would take to help me with all or some of the below. I know everyone is busy, and I'm not really a proper member here, nor am I a leatherworker. So I hope you can forgive the intrusion....okay here goes!

*Is there an endangered species skin that can be easily confusedwith a really nice version of another, permitted skin?

*What is a CITES cert? (I'm sure I'm saying this wrong) Is this something that will let an endangeredspecies skin through customs? How can it be allowed at all? What do they haveto certify? This seems crazy, but I'm totally uneducated on the subject. (maybeyou have a good link to the info?)

*Are ALL skins checked at customs? I'd like it if a small amount got throughand then the big shipment is blocked.

*What skin would you recommend? I'd like it to be so luxuriousthat when you touch it you say, "oh my god this is the nicest leather I haveEVER touched." And what country would it be from? I can easily have it comefrom one place, be dyed/tanned in another and shipped from a third – possiblywith a third treatment on it if necessary. No problem for the story.

Thanks in advance for your help.

You can check out my website at http://fashionismurder.com (the "murder" part refers to the murder mystery aspect of the books)

And you can look at the first book in the series here....http://www.amazon.com/Dead-New-Black-Fashion-Mysteries/dp/1466338121/

Have a great new year!

Are you a member of that pitiful group calling themselves peta. You should go some where else and do research.

[xtine]

Four out of five answers were really helpful. Thanks so much.

The fact that you really can't tell will be great. I can build a scene around that. And since the stoppage at the border is a setup, it's perfect.

Can I ask a couple more?

1) When looking at a skin, what would the back of it tell you?

2) Is there a glossary of terms I can refer to that might tell about the edges, the hair in the back, the creases?

3) What does the smell tell you about a skin?

4) With reptile skin, can you still not tell even if the scales are on it?

My point is, that if I have a superexpertninja come in, I want to know how he would inspect it and what words he'd use.

I am going to get to all those links in a couple of days (2 jobs, 2 kids etc...) and will probably bother you some more after that.

Thanks

X

Edited January 2, 2012 by xtine

[Art]

Hi Christine,

This might help you. This picture is of the corner of an African Elephant skin, a definite CITES piece from Zimbabwe 2006. This would make a beautiful handbag or wallet. There is also a cow/calf embossed skin that kind of looks like this. If I were to make you a bag from this skin, I would give you a letter on my letterhead with the info on the tag which gives the origin, import/export document number, and the year. If travelling outside the country and re-entering, you would want to have this with you. If I made you one out of the embossed calf, you wouldn't need anything.

The back of the skin doesn't tell me much, it is what it is.

I have never seen a glossary, there probably is one.

The smell might tell you how the skin was tanned.

The appearance or mammal, reptile, and fish tells the genus and sometimes species. That is what the expert looks at, and the physical properties of the skin. The difference in feel between elephant and cow embossed to look like elephant are dramatic even if they might look similar.

Art

Four out of five answers were really helpful. Thanks so much.

The fact that you really can't tell will be great. I can build a scene around that. And since the stoppage at the border is a setup, it's perfect.

Can I ask a couple more?

1) When looking at a skin, what would the back of it tell you?

2) Is there a glossary of terms I can refer to that might tell about the edges, the hair in the back, the creases?

3) What does the smell tell you about a skin?

4) With reptile skin, can you still not tell even if the scales are on it?

My point is, that if I have a superexpertninja come in, I want to know how he would inspect it and what words he'd use.

I am going to get to all those links in a couple of days (2 jobs, 2 kids etc...) and will probably bother you some more after that.

Thanks

X

[Guapo]

You should contact the US Fish and Wildlife Service. You can google them. They are the agency who enforces CITES.

[xtine]

Art - that picture is beautiful. Thanks so much. I can get a lot from that.

How does the elephant feel? I know tanning has a lot to do with it, but you said it was different than calf. Softer? Slicker? Stiffer?

Thanks!

[WinterBear]

Check out the USFWS website for press releases and the US Justice Department press releases for information on those that have been busted for smuggling. Smuggling of cat hides especially (tiger, leopard, etc.), but they tend to be furred pelts or rugs than dehaired leather goods. In the US, with native species, it's usually lynx. Lynx are protected in most of the US, either on the federal or state level, and the hides can look very similar to bobcat hides. Some states prohibit or restrict hunting and trapping of bobcats to prevent "take" of lynx.

Otter, wolf, wolverine, grizzly etc. hides are also problematic to legally have in some states, even if they were legally taken in another state or country, and may require interstate game tags at the least to being illegal to possess in the state, period. For example, otters and the state of Wyoming. Otters are not legal to take in Wyoming, but can be purchased from Washington. If I buy an otter hide from Washington to make a hat, It will need to have a tag from the Washington Game and Fish affixed to it, usually through an eyehole, the tip of the tail, or a foot, depending on if it is a whole or partial hide. I will then have to take it to the Wyoming G&F and get an interstate tag affixed (about $8 and some paperwork). The tags must accompany the skin until the hat is made and may be required to be affixed to the finished hat. While still in hide state, there are some states I may not take the hide to, even with the WA tag and the interstate tag attached. Once made into a hat, there should be no problems, but it would still be a good idea to keep the tags with the hat while transporting.

Acts that you may find of use (generalized overview in parentheses):

Lacey Act (http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htm)

Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stus16usc668.htm)

Endangered Species Act (http://www.animallaw.info/topics/tabbed%20topic%20page/spusesa.htm)

Migratory Bird Protection Act (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmba.htm)

US Department of Justice: http://www.justice.gov

Press releases on wildlife: http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=wildlife&search.x=0&search.y=0&q=inurl%3A%2Fopa%2Fpr&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=iso-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=default_collection

USFWS: http://www.fws.gov/

Press releases: http://us.vocuspr.com/Newsroom/Query.aspx?SiteName=fws&Entity=PRAsset&PublishType=Press+Release&XSL=PressReleases&Title=Recent+Releases&PageSize=0&MaximumResults=10&Cache=&SF_PRAsset_PRAssetUDF_UDF20582_EQ=%28R9%29+Headquarters+%28Region+9%29 (will need to select region for best effect on search engine)

ECOS: http://ecos.fws.gov/ecos/indexPublic.do#

Bobcat, no federal protection beyond Lacey Act, but may have state protections (search NatureServe--link below--for list of states): http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=A0HX

Lynx, showing differences in status across range: http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=A073

You might also poke around on the ICUN and NatureServe websites:

NatureServe: http://natureserve.org/; NatureServe search engine: http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe?init=Species

ICUN: http://www.iucnredlist.org/

Ok, brain overload, right? Once you narrow it down somewhat as far as what species you want to talk about, where it is coming from, and where it is going, I can probably offer more specific help.

[xtine]

Ok, brain overload, right? Once you narrow it down somewhat as far as what species you want to talk about, where it is coming from, and where it is going, I can probably offer more specific help.

OMG total overload.

It's like me trying to explain how a shirt goes from concept to store in a forum.

But the thing about the hat is pretty cool.

X

[WinterBear]

Hehe, sorry. I deal with some aspects of this pretty much daily, so I have a lot of information about it (and yet, I seem to have nowhere near enough time to understand it all, so have to look at just portions of it at a time to try and figure it out). All of that was just the "broad splatter-brush".

The hat is a bit of a headache actually. I wonder if the group who wanted to make it are now thinking they should have started out with something a little less complicated...like coyote or bison.

[Art]

Hi Christine,

It is a little stiffer, but not brittle. The skin is pretty much unmarkable with a fingernail, and scratching with a fingernail produces little if any change. Under magnification the plate structure of the skin is obviously different than cow. Email me your postal address at artvanhecke at gmail dot com and I will send you a piece so you can see for yourself. Also the elephant is about 6 or more times as expensive as quality calf.

Art

Art - that picture is beautiful. Thanks so much. I can get a lot from that.

How does the elephant feel? I know tanning has a lot to do with it, but you said it was different than calf. Softer? Slicker? Stiffer?

Thanks!

[DoubleC]

Good Morning -

I am not a leatherworker at all. Just a novelist who put in a plot device she doesn't fully understand. I am hoping to pick all your brains on the below questions.

I appreciate the time you would take to help me with all or some of the below. I know everyone is busy, and I'm not really a proper member here, nor am I a leatherworker. So I hope you can forgive the intrusion....okay here goes!

*Is there an endangered species skin that can be easily confusedwith a really nice version of another, permitted skin?

*What is a CITES cert? (I'm sure I'm saying this wrong) Is this something that will let an endangeredspecies skin through customs? How can it be allowed at all? What do they haveto certify? This seems crazy, but I'm totally uneducated on the subject. (maybeyou have a good link to the info?)

*Are ALL skins checked at customs? I'd like it if a small amount got throughand then the big shipment is blocked.

*What skin would you recommend? I'd like it to be so luxuriousthat when you touch it you say, "oh my god this is the nicest leather I haveEVER touched." And what country would it be from? I can easily have it comefrom one place, be dyed/tanned in another and shipped from a third – possiblywith a third treatment on it if necessary. No problem for the story.

Thanks in advance for your help.

You can check out my website at http://fashionismurder.com (the "murder" part refers to the murder mystery aspect of the books)

And you can look at the first book in the series here....http://www.amazon.com/Dead-New-Black-Fashion-Mysteries/dp/1466338121/

Have a great new year!

Hi Christine. This thread was so pertinent to me that I couldn't believe it. I just went to a leather company recommended on here and after I filled out my info to buy wholesale, I went to the home page to start to check out leather, and saw the had an elephant hide, or 1/2 or shoulder or belly, I really don't know. I shut the site down as I tried not to vomit. 2011 was the worst year in a long time for poaching African elephants and rhinos. Seems there's a recently wealthy Asian market that wants nice things, and are willing to pay for the poaching of tusks and horns. Ivory for obvious reasons, it's beautiful, and the rhino horns because it's believed to have medicinal power (actually I think some cultures think it's an aphrodisiac) which has been proven by 12 gazillion studies it doesn't have any, no, not none, buy Viagra.

I know I'm on a little rant here and will probably get BUSTED or at least accused of being one of those PETA fruitcakes, but I just had to jump in. And also because I am a 'recovering writer' LOL with a couple SS published, and I know what you're up against. Well I mean as far as research; I know nothing from fashion and the worst part is that most of the replies read like Greek to me and wouldn't ya know I took Latin? So I can't help you at all except give you some moral support and explain that however it's justified, leather comes from COWS and not animals whose flesh and bones rot away after being stripped of their skin. We drink cow milk, we eat cow meat, and we use their hides. Kinda like the way it used to be when the only people here were Native Americans. So if you get confused about what leather is, just let me know and I'll explain it again, LOL. Good luck on the new story. Cheryl

[Art]

Hi Cheryl,

In Africa, some of the governments have turned over management of the elephant population to local tribes. The tribes are taught species management and often sell tags for elephant the way we do here for moose elk sheep and bear. In lands managed by local tribes, the elephant population has increased because it is seen as a continuing resource, in other words, it provides income. Poaching in these areas has become a thing of the past because poachers disappear, or worse. Poachers are always in season in the areas and they know it. The tribes cull the overpopulation of elephants and any rogues that cause trouble. The culls are where the elephant panels come from. Look at them as a rather large version of the cow (however I wouldn't attempt to milk one).

When governments attempt the management of elephant herds, the poaching problem is much more prevalent, penalties for poaching are not nearly as severe as in tribe managed areas, and the government agents are not nearly as adept in the bush as indigenous tribesmen, nor as brutal.

When you buy a culled animal hide with a CITES tag, you are feeding an African tribesman. Poachers don't worry about CITES tags or any laws for that matter. Poachers seldom take the time to skin out an elephant, and there is too much further processing necessary to market it.

Art

Hi Christine. This thread was so pertinent to me that I couldn't believe it. I just went to a leather company recommended on here and after I filled out my info to buy wholesale, I went to the home page to start to check out leather, and saw the had an elephant hide, or 1/2 or shoulder or belly, I really don't know. I shut the site down as I tried not to vomit. 2011 was the worst year in a long time for poaching African elephants and rhinos. Seems there's a recently wealthy Asian market that wants nice things, and are willing to pay for the poaching of tusks and horns. Ivory for obvious reasons, it's beautiful, and the rhino horns because it's believed to have medicinal power (actually I think some cultures think it's an aphrodisiac) which has been proven by 12 gazillion studies it doesn't have any, no, not none, buy Viagra.

I know I'm on a little rant here and will probably get BUSTED or at least accused of being one of those PETA fruitcakes, but I just had to jump in. And also because I am a 'recovering writer' LOL with a couple SS published, and I know what you're up against. Well I mean as far as research; I know nothing from fashion and the worst part is that most of the replies read like Greek to me and wouldn't ya know I took Latin? So I can't help you at all except give you some moral support and explain that however it's justified, leather comes from COWS and not animals whose flesh and bones rot away after being stripped of their skin. We drink cow milk, we eat cow meat, and we use their hides. Kinda like the way it used to be when the only people here were Native Americans. So if you get confused about what leather is, just let me know and I'll explain it again, LOL. Good luck on the new story. Cheryl

[DoubleC]

Hi Cheryl,

In Africa, some of the governments have turned over management of the elephant population to local tribes. The tribes are taught species management and often sell tags for elephant the way we do here for moose elk sheep and bear. In lands managed by local tribes, the elephant population has increased because it is seen as a continuing resource, in other words, it provides income. Poaching in these areas has become a thing of the past because poachers disappear, or worse. Poachers are always in season in the areas and they know it. The tribes cull the overpopulation of elephants and any rogues that cause trouble. The culls are where the elephant panels come from. Look at them as a rather large version of the cow (however I wouldn't attempt to milk one).

When governments attempt the management of elephant herds, the poaching problem is much more prevalent, penalties for poaching are not nearly as severe as in tribe managed areas, and the government agents are not nearly as adept in the bush as indigenous tribesmen, nor as brutal.

When you buy a culled animal hide with a CITES tag, you are feeding an African tribesman. Poachers don't worry about CITES tags or any laws for that matter. Poachers seldom take the time to skin out an elephant, and there is too much further processing necessary to market it.

Art

Hi Art. The article I read recently must have been about the government run populations. And I know the government culls them too, or has in the past, with helicopters and just kills them and leaves everything. I've read and watched a lot of things about elephants and in their behavior they are so human like....only better somehow. It's not that I'm anti-social and don't like people Art. But the elephant herd is run by the oldest cow who knows where the food will be, and water during the year. When a bull calf gets to an age he becomes interested in his cousins, the lead cow makes him leave the herd which has kept the population stronger by preventing inbreeding. Over 100 years ago the African cow had tusks too, and was poached as well as the bulls. In less than 100 years, the African female calf started being born WITHOUT tusks. The African government tried to introduce elephants into a new area so they gather up teenagers and moved them there. Within two weeks they were running wild, knocking over trees and generally out of control. The put an older cow with them and the behavior stopped within 24 hours.

They've caught elephants on video coming upon a Government culled group, and the group carried the tusks into the, woods, trees, jungle? and hid them. it's as if they know why they're being hunted and culled.

I agree the solution they've come up with as far as turning the control over to tribes-people is a much better one. I also understand that to some culling them is no different than a zebra. Part of my problem Art is with the waste. They don't eat elephant meat, or I don't think the tribes-people do. And elephants are different than zebras. I don't think they've even found a way to measure an elephant's intelligence. I'm really not a PETA nut (not that I'm sure they're nuts) I just think the whole premise of Christine's book shows the problem between humans and animals. Not that it's Christine's fault, I'm expressing myself badly, it's just the disregard we have for life. It saddens me. Cheryl

[Art]

Tribes people do eat culled elephant, they even eat poached ones when they come upon them. They even eat 70 year old ones that just fall over dead. Protein is protein.

Generally, bull elephants are the ones that are culled. The occasional rogue female is taken for safety or humanitarian reasons. These animals are totally consumed, ivory, skin (this is what we see) and bones (soup, tools, trinkets, etc.). When I say the tribes manage the herds, they actually do it scientifically and socially; there is considerable discussion and selection. They know their animals quite well and would only take a matriarch if she went rogue, they know what a decision like that means. Like I said before, the herds under management have increased.

There is good and bad in every situation.

Art

Hi Art. The article I read recently must have been about the government run populations. And I know the government culls them too, or has in the past, with helicopters and just kills them and leaves everything. I've read and watched a lot of things about elephants and in their behavior they are so human like....only better somehow. It's not that I'm anti-social and don't like people Art. But the elephant herd is run by the oldest cow who knows where the food will be, and water during the year. When a bull calf gets to an age he becomes interested in his cousins, the lead cow makes him leave the herd which has kept the population stronger by preventing inbreeding. Over 100 years ago the African cow had tusks too, and was poached as well as the bulls. In less than 100 years, the African female calf started being born WITHOUT tusks. The African government tried to introduce elephants into a new area so they gather up teenagers and moved them there. Within two weeks they were running wild, knocking over trees and generally out of control. The put an older cow with them and the behavior stopped within 24 hours.

They've caught elephants on video coming upon a Government culled group, and the group carried the tusks into the, woods, trees, jungle? and hid them. it's as if they know why they're being hunted and culled.

I agree the solution they've come up with as far as turning the control over to tribes-people is a much better one. I also understand that to some culling them is no different than a zebra. Part of my problem Art is with the waste. They don't eat elephant meat, or I don't think the tribes-people do. And elephants are different than zebras. I don't think they've even found a way to measure an elephant's intelligence. I'm really not a PETA nut (not that I'm sure they're nuts) I just think the whole premise of Christine's book shows the problem between humans and animals. Not that it's Christine's fault, I'm expressing myself badly, it's just the disregard we have for life. It saddens me. Cheryl

[DoubleC]

Tribes people do eat culled elephant, they even eat poached ones when they come upon them. They even eat 70 year old ones that just fall over dead. Protein is protein.

Generally, bull elephants are the ones that are culled. The occasional rogue female is taken for safety or humanitarian reasons. These animals are totally consumed, ivory, skin (this is what we see) and bones (soup, tools, trinkets, etc.). When I say the tribes manage the herds, they actually do it scientifically and socially; there is considerable discussion and selection. They know their animals quite well and would only take a matriarch if she went rogue, they know what a decision like that means. Like I said before, the herds under management have increased.

There is good and bad in every situation.

Art

Art, I honestly didn't know that. For some reason that makes me happy. I never imagined it would be POSSIBLE to eat elephant just because of the way they look. You really know your stuff and I'm glad you bothered to explain it to me. Cheryl.

[xtine]

Cheryl, I'm sorry but I never told you the premise of the book, and I have not told it to anyone so I'm unsure how you know it?

I also hate waste, and I am glad to hear about the solutions of the tribespeople.

Art - I sent you an email

[catskin]

Here is an idea.

Since X-tine is NOT a leather worker and by her own admission knows NOTHING about leather but is simply here to get information to make her book worth more than just to fill some publishers trash bin.

How about she donate a pecentage maybe 10% of all proceeds to support Leatherworler.net? As a token of thanks to all members who assisted her. Since it clearly would have been worthless without the information members are giving her for FREE?

How many agree?

Edited January 8, 2012 by catskin

[Art]

I notice it doesn't say "Contributing Member" under your name. We're not here for the money, even when we give valuable sewing machine advice or leatherworking advice. At least she is taking the time to do research and get it right. Let her get the final product published before your critique.

Art

Here is an idea.

Since X-tine is NOT a leather worker and by her own admission knows NOTHING about leather but is simply here to get information to make her book worth more than just to fill some publishers trash bin.

How about she donate a pecentage maybe 10% of all proceeds to support Leatherworler.net? As a token of thanks to all members who assisted her. Since it clearly would have been worthless without the information members are giving her for FREE?

How many agree?

[catskin]

I notice it doesn't say "Contributing Member" under your name. We're not here for the money, even when we give valuable sewing machine advice or leatherworking advice. At least she is taking the time to do research and get it right. Let her get the final product published before your critique.

Art

If you read my post it says IDEA. Now you have your opinoins of which I don't always agree and I have mine. Now you also should see that I would not benifit directly from this idea.

As for my being a CONTRIBUTING member (nor is this person) I have supported and do support companies who pay to advertise on this site (maybe not yours yet) to the tune of several thousand dollars so in that way I have made a contribution. I also am not expecting to make huge amounts of money from the advice I get or have gotten here as I am sure this person is hoping to.

I have yet to gain even $1.00 directly from anything this site has given me. I have leaned some but nothing that has payed me in any way.

Edited January 9, 2012 by catskin

[WinterBear]

Woah! Wait a minute here.

This is a discussion forum, isn't it? With open access to those who make leather goods and all of those who want to learn more about it?

Heck, I love learning about saddles. Doesn't mean I'll ever make one. But if I ask a question about how to do something on a saddle to help a friend make their saddle that they plan to sell, someone here will be more than happy to talk to me about it, and I value that helpfulness. Every question I've had on this forum has been answered by people who didn't have to do so, but were willing to assist my completely twitty and admittedly bumbling self. It's a nice community feeling, and I'm willing to return the favor to anyone, regardless if they know anything about what I know or do, if I can help or give them some idea of where to start.

Personally, was my post valuable? Maybe, but she could have found what I gave her herself if she poked around enough or found a G&F agent willing to yak it up a bit over a gallon or two of coffee. What I gave her is neither proprietary nor a derivative work of mine. All I gave here is somewhere to start, and some suggestions. She still has to take that and work on it--verify, refine, research more, see if her idea is feasible based on those sources. I see my posts as nothing more than the information I would give a Boy Scout working on his Ev.Sci. Merit Badge, a student looking for resources on a biology paper, or a friend wondering why I wouldn't let them pick up and keep the flicker feather he saw in the park.

Besides, some of her readers might get intrigued by leather and maybe wander this way?

(not a contributing member yet, but I'm working on it)

[catskin]

As stated it was an IDEA, a random thought, Not even a suggestion .Do I need to explain the difference?