Old Dogs And New Tricks

[WillGhormley]

I'm a stickler for the "Old School" and I mean real old. So, it was difficult for me to try anything new. However, I finally had a project that I could use the Eco Flo Professional Waterstain on, (a modern paddle holster). I was particularly interested in the Eco Flo because I had heard it was pretty water-fast. When you are carrying things so close to your person, (shirts especially), you hate to have dye bleeding off on the clothes when wet or sweaty. So, I tried the Eco Flo Waterstain and was very impressed. I took photos and made a webpage for how I used it. If you are interested in my experience with it, visit the link:

http://www.willghormley-maker.com/OldDogsAndNewTricks.html

Hope this helps,

Will

[Sylvia]

I'm a stickler for the "Old School" and I mean real old. So, it was difficult for me to try anything new. However, I finally had a project that I could use the Eco Flo Professional Waterstain on, (a modern paddle holster). I was particularly interested in the Eco Flo because I had heard it was pretty water-fast. When you are carrying things so close to your person, (shirts especially), you hate to have dye bleeding off on the clothes when wet or sweaty. So, I tried the Eco Flo Waterstain and was very impressed. I took photos and made a webpage for how I used it. If you are interested in my experience with it, visit the link:

http://www.willghorm...dNewTricks.html

Hope this helps,

Will

LOL "Since I"m Scotch.... " Golly, didn't know there was a liquor breed of human beings!?!

Nice tutorial. I liked that... and the fact that the Scottish in you came out and made you frugal. LOL

[electrathon]

Will,

Did you do any testing with abrasion? I tried the waterstain and it did look OK on the leather. I did a similar piece in Fiebings dye. I rubbed both pieces on the concrete to simulate rubbing on something, the surface was slightly rubbed off on both pieces. The waterstain piece had no color left at the wear area. The dye piece had no missing color, just the damage to the leather. Sort of soured me from trusting the durability of the waterstain.

Aaron

[Spinner]

Will,

Did you do any testing with abrasion? I tried the waterstain and it did look OK on the leather. I did a similar piece in Fiebings dye. I rubbed both pieces on the concrete to simulate rubbing on something, the surface was slightly rubbed off on both pieces. The waterstain piece had no color left at the wear area. The dye piece had no missing color, just the damage to the leather. Sort of soured me from trusting the durability of the waterstain.

Aaron

Hey Aaron,

I figured out something that works very nicely if you're looking for the deep solid color of waterstains with the abrasion durability of oil dye...use both!

When the waterstains first can out I started playing with them to see if I could get the dark jet black color on my tank bibs. Once it's sealed with Resolene or Super Sheen the black is straight out of the depths of hell black, pitch black, 2 minutes after midnight black...you get the idea, but I had the same issues you found...zippers, etc can abrade the tank bib leaving natural color wear marks.

Here;s what I do now and it worked out great with some of the bikes being on the road through winter snow, rain, etc. for 6+ months:

2 heavy coats of Pro Oil dye (base color) let dry

1 good application of neatsfoot oil let sit overnight

1 good coat of black waterstain rubbed on with a soft sponge, let dry for at least an hour or more

buff the surface to get a dull sheen with a polishing cloth apply two coats of acrylic finish letting dry in between (I spray mine on)

let dry overnight to make sure it hardens/dries completely

apply Pecard's black leather dressing & buff to desired shine.

Cheers,

Chris

Here's an example of a bib finished this way:

Here's one with oil dye only (4 applications, hand rubbed in):

[WillGhormley]

Wow Spinner! Nice. Been a long time since I did custom leather on a bike. I had forgotten how nice it looked!

Hey Electrathon, No, I hadn't done any abrasion tests. I was too focused on the color fastness of the project. However, I do remember Byron telling me I needed to put on multiple layers of the conditioner in thin coats to protect the finish. I think you are probably right about the relative nature of the surface application. Easy, fast, colorfast, not so deep. Makes sense. But, Spinner seems to be on to something with the oil dye undercoat. You get the best of both worlds with that application. Genius!

I'll have to try that on another project. However, one of the things I do is the distressed look. I can see some real applications for some cool effects. I'll have to play around with it a bit more...past the color-fastness issue. Maybe a saddle tan undercoat with Black Waterstain overcoat for that "Hollywood" distressed look. We'll see...

Excellent point!

Will

[WillGhormley]

I got to wunderin' if the Waterstain wouldn't penetrate deeper into the leather if the leather was damp when the Waterstain was applied. I'll have to do some tests on that.

Will

[Luke Hatley]

Nice write up Thank you.

What is your thoughts on the Waterstain Edgecoat as compaired to Fiebings Edgecoat?

[WillGhormley]

Hey Luke,

The vast, vast majority of the work I've done has been reproduction old west gear. My edge treatments have been pretty much limited to organic bee's wax and Gum Tragacanth. Neither one really cover the actual leather, just burnish it down. I have used Fiebing's, but I didn't like the look on my old west gear, so my experience is limited. However, I liked the way the Waterstain edger went on. But, I don't have a whole lot of experience with that either.

Not much help I'm afraid.

Will

[WillGhormley]

OK, I tried another test with the Waterstain, applying it to dampened leather to see if I could get better color penetration and abrasion resistance. The answer is "Yes!". To see the results of that test, visit the same webpage as before:

http://www.willghormley-maker.com/OldDogsAndNewTricks.html

However, this test got me to thinkin' there are better results to be had with the Waterstain. So, I guess I'm goin' to have to do at least one more test.

Will

[randypants]

Will,

Did you do any testing with abrasion? I tried the waterstain and it did look OK on the leather. I did a similar piece in Fiebings dye. I rubbed both pieces on the concrete to simulate rubbing on something, the surface was slightly rubbed off on both pieces. The waterstain piece had no color left at the wear area. The dye piece had no missing color, just the damage to the leather. Sort of soured me from trusting the durability of the waterstain.

Aaron

i heard a rumor(maybe just someone trying to push their water based stains and dyes on me) that the EPA is working on banning spirit based dyes. anyone heard any truth to this?

[abn]

Will, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've noticed lots of folks here who are hesitant to try the Eco Flo products, but I've been using them since 2007 and really like the results. Sometimes even "old schoolers" can find something positive in the new formulations! It never hurts to give them a try...

Regards, -Alex

[katsass]

FWIW from the old grumpy guy; I guess that I'm very much a traditionalist in my work and from the very beginning didn't care much for water based stains. Did use some coffee and tea stains I made myself for coloring the carved and tooled items I did waaay back in the '60s. Primarily for shading on carved Pronghorn Antelope. I don't do that kind of work anymore. With your tutorial I just might be convinced to use this stuff --- but only if I can't get my favorite product --- Fiebing's Pro-Oil.. I learned with it, I know what to expect it to do and I like it. Very good critique Mr. Ghormley, well worth the read. Thank you. Mike

P.S. For my edges I use a tad bit of water, glycerine soap and a final finish of my favorite (being a bit on the che --- uh, frugal side) Mop and Glo mixed 50/50 with water.

Edited March 7, 2012 by katsass

[Go2Tex]

i heard a rumor(maybe just someone trying to push their water based stains and dyes on me) that the EPA is working on banning spirit based dyes. anyone heard any truth to this?

The EPA, eh? I say it's time to get rid of the freakin' EPA! Nothing but a bunch of eco-nazi ideologues. It's totally out of control and unaccountable.

As for the topic of water based dye and rub-off.... If you put a good sealer on any dye it won't rub off.... well, not under normal wear. I guess if you get your butt drug across the pavement trying to make an arrest or something, eh, you might scuff your holster, but I recommend against being drug across the pavement for a lot a reasons, scuffing one's holster being the least of them.

As for the dye being applied to wet leather.... usually, when I have done this, I get a diluted, lighter application. But, the test does indicate a better penetration. Thanks for the demo.

Oh yeah, one more thought..... the holster in question looked a lot better before you dyed it black. I recommend against dying anything black. I think it should be banned along with the EPA.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Go2Tex

[WillGhormley]

You guys are funny! Yeah, the EPA is trying to get rid of anything that works good or makes money. Here in Ioway country, the EPA was trying to outlaw farming because it caused too much dust. You think I'm kiddin' don't you, but that's essentially what their mandates would have done. They also tried to outlaw feed-lots because of "Bovine Flatulence". They say that cow-farts release too much methane and worsen their imaginary global warming. The EPA has already run most tanneries out of the country. Who knows what will be next, saddle makers?

When it comes right down to color penetration, nuthin' beats Fiebing's Professional Oil Dye, nuthin'! However, when it comes to bleedin' of on clothes when wet, nuthin' beats Fiebing's Black Professional Oil Dye. For that reason, I'm goin' to start usin' the Waterstain products on my modern carry gear. And, Go2Tex, I can't agree with you more about how coloration sucks the beauty out of carved leather. But, the customer is always right.

I did another test with the Waterstain using the Waterstain Finish and Cream Conditioner. Those two extra applications really armored-up the abrasion resistance. But, again, like Go2Tex said, try to avoid gettin' drug across cement. You can see the results of the last test at the same webpage.

http://www.willghormley-maker.com/OldDogsAndNewTricks.html

Hope this helps,

Will

[busted]

I wonder if anyone has ever explained to the EPA that cows don't and can't fart we are being lead by a bunch of morons

You guys are funny! Yeah, the EPA is trying to get rid of anything that works good or makes money. Here in Ioway country, the EPA was trying to outlaw farming because it caused too much dust. You think I'm kiddin' don't you, but that's essentially what their mandates would have done. They also tried to outlaw feed-lots because of "Bovine Flatulence". They say that cow-farts release too much methane and worsen their imaginary global warming. The EPA has already run most tanneries out of the country. Who knows what will be next, saddle makers?

When it comes right down to color penetration, nuthin' beats Fiebing's Professional Oil Dye, nuthin'! However, when it comes to bleedin' of on clothes when wet, nuthin' beats Fiebing's Black Professional Oil Dye. For that reason, I'm goin' to start usin' the Waterstain products on my modern carry gear. And, Go2Tex, I can't agree with you more about how coloration sucks the beauty out of carved leather. But, the customer is always right.

I did another test with the Waterstain using the Waterstain Finish and Cream Conditioner. Those two extra applications really armored-up the abrasion resistance. But, again, like Go2Tex said, try to avoid gettin' drug across cement. You can see the results of the last test at the same webpage.

http://www.willghorm...dNewTricks.html

Hope this helps,

Will

[Go2Tex]

Yeah well.... when it comes to black holsters or black anything, (and I know the paying customer is always right), my motto is: If you want it bad, you get it bad... or, black. The nice thing about black is, it hides really crappy stitching.

You might have something with this Eco-flotsam stuff. I just wish they would change the name to something a little less politically correct. I just about refuse to buy anything with the word 'green' or environment in the name or on the label.

[Toolingaround]

Hello

Thanks for the great tests Will. As a newbie I am at the point where I need to decide which kind of dye I am going to invest in. This helps a lot! I only wish the water stain line was a bit more affordable.

Thanks again, Toolingaround

[Iron Pounder]

How about stuff that will get wet at some point? Saddle Bags, fork bag, seats and things like that. It seems like some are trying super hard to get this eco stuff to work almost as good as what we are already using. I wouldn't mind using it as long as it was a better product. Shwos what I know, the little bit I've used eco I always wet the leather down first, I didn't know most put it on dry. This has only been the standard eco not the pro line, maybe the pro line is a lot better I don't know.

[MadMorbius]

I learned two things in this thread...

1) Ecoflow Waterstain is good stuff but needs a damp leather application and multiple coats of conditioner to protect against abraision....

2) Cow's can't fart.

Who knew?

Anyway, I was really hesitant to try anything eco-flo since my previous experience with it was somewhere below craptacular and I found the dye wouldn't penetrate at all....but along came the newer waterstains, I eventually succumbed to peer pressure and I haven't looked back since

[impulse]

Hey Will,

I find it interesting that your tests showed that dampening the leather before applying water-based stain increased penetration.

An old time saddler friend (now deceased) used to stain bridles etc by immersing the leather for 15 mins in warm water into which he had added the stain. The uptake of colour was even and completely absorbed into the leather right through the entire thickness. He would then wipe off the excess moisture and allow to naturally dry to about casing point. Conditioner made up of 50/50 neatsfoot oil and beeswax was rubbed in well and allowed to dry the rest of the way. Vigorous buffing produced a wonderful glow to the finished product. No sealers needed.

This method was used on top-of-the-line English show bridles etc. Stains in powdered form are possibly best and cheapest to use for this method and the remaining mix left over can be bottled up to use for future projects.

He also recommended dunking leather hardened by sweat and mud into warm water before scrubbing with saddle soap or glycerine soap and conditioning as above.

Just make sure the conditioner is applied before the leather dries out completely or it will go quite hard.

BTW do not use artificial heat (hair dryers, convection heaters, ovens) to dry leather, just natural sunlight or not- too-hot central heating in the winter months.

Lois from downunder

Edited April 10, 2012 by impulse

[rosiart]

Has anyone tried these waterstains with items with a lot of tooling or with a Sheridan style finishing? The Tandy video only shows these used in an all over colour application. Also has anyone used them for a painted application? If so, I would love to hear your thoughts on them. thanks.

[Leather Girl]

I have recently tried the waterstain and was also impressed with it. One of the more impressive things was the fact by accident a piece of it went in the washing machine and dryer. It came out very well and nothing on my clothes and nothing off the leather. Glad it was a trial piece that ended up there.

Lesson: do not stick leather in your pocket and not check them before washing.

I call it my blonde trick.

Randi-Lee

[Spinner]

How about stuff that will get wet at some point? Saddle Bags, fork bag, seats and things like that. It seems like some are trying super hard to get this eco stuff to work almost as good as what we are already using. I wouldn't mind using it as long as it was a better product. Shwos what I know, the little bit I've used eco I always wet the leather down first, I didn't know most put it on dry. This has only been the standard eco not the pro line, maybe the pro line is a lot better I don't know.

Has anyone tried these waterstains with items with a lot of tooling or with a Sheridan style finishing? The Tandy video only shows these used in an all over colour application. Also has anyone used them for a painted application? If so, I would love to hear your thoughts on them. thanks.

Yes to both. As for using on bike gear, I use the waterstains as a 'top color coat' to Pro Oil dyes as my base/penetrating coats. Pro Oil dyes, while they penetrate well and look great still have a residual golden tone no matter how many coats and I have never been fond of the "dye blue first and then black" trick as you get a midnight black, not a coal black. Most OEM bike parts are coal black vinyl so matching is important for my bibs and such. Two light coats of the Waterstains Black over 3 wet-on-wet coats of Pro Oil dye gives excellent penetration, the dark solid coal black color and no color variation. I do this on all my bibs, tooled or blank and have used it with paint brushes to outline some of the two tone paint jobs I do like the POW/MIA logo like this:

Here are a couple to show the color difference:

Pro Oil dye only:

Pro Oil + Waterstains

As you can see, the color of the black is so much more true in the second one it almost fades into the black paint job, that's how I like them to look.

Cheers,

Chris

[rosiart]

Thanks for the reply, Chris. I love the deep black you are getting with this application.

To pursue this farther, have you or possibly anyone else, tried the waterstains with the typical Sheridan style finishing, with the supersheen resist and then applying the stain?