Swivel Knives!

[pete]

I've read all of the knife questions here- seems like it goes on forever. Now I am thinking and would love an answer from some of our great sheridan toolers. I have always had and always loved the 3/4" angled ceramic.

I've been reading lately about the popularity and need for 3/8 straight knives and what a great one to start on and get to know well. What I didn't understand was the comments made regarding the lack of need for angled knives for sheridan flowers and tight turns, as the straight blades do so much better. When I make tight turns with the angled, its only the tip that cuts anyway- I can't seem to make clean tight turns with the straight blade as it will "scrape" the leather if not tilted steeply enough- and ANY variance of the perpendicular will of course cause undercutting. It's fine for long straight passes- but other than that my curves and finish cuts look the same with either style.

Bottom line,(Bruce,Clay, Kieth, and others) isn't the most important thing that one gets used to and really has a command on the blade style?

I ASK THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO GET EVEN BETTER AT CARVING-HAVE SEEN NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE WHEN I USE THE STRAIGHT BLADE OTHER THAN IT IS HARDER-AND WANT TO KNOW IF I JUST NEED TO PRACTICE MORE WITH ONE.

COMMENTS PLEASE!!!!!!

pete

[gringobill]

Hey Pete, there's another thread going on right now on this topic and maybe you are just piggy backing on that? But Kieth Seidel and Bob Park have both weighed in on this topic about "what is the best swivel knife blade to use for floral carving." And I don't think you'll get much argument that those guys are two of the top floral toolers on this forum. There are plent of others really great artists on here as well they just stay below the radar more.

I consider my self a pretty good hand with a swivel knife but I've also got plenty of age on me and in addition to doing floral tooling myself I have spent 50 plus years studying and admiring the work of some of the best artists in the business.

There are some common traditions and methods that exist in all floral tooling whether it is old time western floral, like came out of some of the early shops of the southwest like S.D Meyers from El Paso, to the great California shops like Visalia and Rowell, Hamley's from Pendelton, the different Porter's shops in Arizona, to the Kings who put Sheridan on the leatherwork map. I know I've missed a lot and sure don't mean to slight or offende anyone, that's not what's important.

My point is, I am essentially positive that there are certain common practices that all of the reallly good floral toolers did and do.

I am sure not wanting to be mean or overly critical but I'm pretty sure that none of those artists use or used a angle swivel knife blade for the majority of their carving. As both Bob and Kieth point out, you just can't get the effects that are needed to make good floral tooling look like it is supposed to look. I think that anyone who is "really into," this craft/art can look at a piece of work from one of those famous artists from yesterday thru today and figure out, "Hey, that looks good!!!" "I like how that looks."

People on this board look at work from the acknowledged best tooling artists that post on here, and are amazed, impressed, and envious of their work. I think I can pretty well guarantee that none of that acknowledged top work is done with a angled blade of any width.

You just can't get the effects, be they subtle or not so subtle, with an angle blade. That is because of just what you mentioned, you are doing all the cutting with the tiny point of the tip! It's just too tiny and narrow.

The only exception to this that I can think of (maybe,) would be some extremely tiny floral patterns.

To get the many effects that look so good in the best tooling, you need a straight blade, and it probably doesn't matter if it's what is called "hollow ground," or not. What is called hollow ground in a swivel knife blade is not the same as a true hollow grind in a regular knife blade or like a straight razor which are hollow ground horizontally.

The advantage of the so called hollow ground swivel knife blades offer is that they are hollow ground vertically and not horizontally like a true hollow grind is, that makes them easier and quicker to sharpen and strop because you are having to remove and sharpen less metal.

Most people use a straight blade 3/8" or 1/2" wide for most carving, I have a couple of 1/4" straight blades that I use for really small intricate patterns. I bet Bob Park and Kieth probably use their normal 3/8 or 1/2 blades for that too? It just takes more finesse.

I'm not going to repeat all the other tips that Bob and Kieth mentioned in their posts in that other thread, there is some great information in there.

But a HUGE one is having your blade sharp. Bob wrote quite a bit about that and I couldn't agree more. Most people are trying to work with a dull blade. I believe that is the biggest impediment to people doing better carving and improving quickly.

I have it in my mind that when someone came on board as an apprentice at one of those shops of yesteryear they had to learn how to get a knife sharp enough to suit those old masters before they'd ever let them touch a piece of tooling leather.

If you look at a piece of acknowledged good/great carving one common quality is how the swivel knife cuts look. If you study the cuts they are not just lines on a piece of leather. All great designs like this be they engraved scrolls on metal or a tooled design on leather have a graceful tapered quality.

In a good tooled floral pattern the swivel knife cuts all have that flowing taperd look to them and that's what separates the really beautiful carving from "just carving."

To get that eye pleasing tapered, flowing look you have to make those flowing tapered swivel knife cuts.

Both Bob and Kieth go into detail about how to do that. That is something that takes a lot of practice but first you need to study that outstanding work and figure out what it is that make's it so appealing to the eye.

It's like the difference between da Vinci painting the Mona Lisa and painting a house.

Again, it starts with a sharp, well stropped blade!

There are all kinds of subtle movements with the swivel knife blade required to achieve "that look!"

Some of it is tilting the blade forward or backward, left or right to a lesser degree and theamount of downward pressure applied with your index finger.

Some cuts require a more blunt end at the start, meaning more pressure to begin with then easing off as you finish.

Others are taperd at both ends to varying degrees and you start with less downward pressure, increasing as the cut continues, then gradually decreasing as you complete the cut.

Again, and it is harped on repeatedly, it takes practice, practice, practice.

BUT.......first you need to learn what each cut is supposed to look like in order to make your practice count. There's an engraver on a bit and spur making sight whose motto that he puts on all his posts is, "Perfect Practice Makes Perfect." At first glance that sounds kind of simplistic but it is spot on.

Maybe this might help somebody?

Bill

[JLSleather]

This TYPE of thing has been discussed, well, certainly since before I was born! So, the attached pic shows 3 straps, I'll let them make their own point. All three straps carved with the SAME design, cut from the SAME piece of leather, and colored with shades of dye all from the SAME bottle. You decide which of these was done with the 1/4" angled blade, which with the 3/8" straight blade, and which with the 1/2" straight.

[pete]

can't tell

[ouchmyfinger]

can anyone explain why barry kings swivel knives are 45 with a blade and they are made out of solid brass and tool steel blades. it seems the next prices like the ol smoothie and leather wranglers are 110-130. why such a jump in price. i am completely satisfied with all of my barry king tools of course and his mauls are excellent. I have one of his beader blades as well and it definitely glides through the leather but i just got it so i don't have a longevity review as of yet.

I'm about to take the plunge on a swivel knife so i was hoping someone could chime in

also he makes a thin and thick version of his blades, which one would be best for sheridan style carving, small to medium size project. i would say from as small as belts to as large as a purse, no briefcase or saddles as of yet lol

thanks

[TTcustom]

can anyone explain why barry kings swivel knives are 45 with a blade and they are made out of solid brass and tool steel blades.

I have a Barry King and this thread inspired me to order a 3/8 straight blade to go into it. I have to say i am happy with it but I don't do a lot of Sheridan style carving. His blades are really nice though and glide through the leather.

I will have to watch this thread and see what others with more experience have to add.

[Spinner]

can anyone explain why barry kings swivel knives are 45 with a blade and they are made out of solid brass and tool steel blades. it seems the next prices like the ol smoothie and leather wranglers are 110-130. why such a jump in price. i am completely satisfied with all of my barry king tools of course and his mauls are excellent. I have one of his beader blades as well and it definitely glides through the leather but i just got it so i don't have a longevity review as of yet.

I'm about to take the plunge on a swivel knife so i was hoping someone could chime in

also he makes a thin and thick version of his blades, which one would be best for sheridan style carving, small to medium size project. i would say from as small as belts to as large as a purse, no briefcase or saddles as of yet lol

thanks

Some of it's personal preference, edge longevity, weight, blade grind styles, word of mouth, etc. The list of reasons why to get one over another vary.

I have both Barry King and LeatherWranglers and while the King's are nice, I gravitate towards my LW SK-3 for 99% of my cutting. Overall, the weight is less so I can hang on to it longer on larger projects, the action feels a slight bit smoother and I love Paul's blades. I don't know what he's feeding them but they stay sharp longer than any blade in my shop, swivel knife or otherwise (although my Knipschield Detail Knife holds a damn fine edge too). That means less stropping and more cutting. I was thinking of adding another maker in there just for the fun of it but haven't decided which to try next.

Chris

[terrymac]

Some of it's personal preference, edge longevity, weight, blade grind styles, word of mouth, etc. The list of reasons why to get one over another vary.

I have both Barry King and LeatherWranglers and while the King's are nice, I gravitate towards my LW SK-3 for 99% of my cutting. Overall, the weight is less so I can hang on to it longer on larger projects, the action feels a slight bit smoother and I love Paul's blades. I don't know what he's feeding them but they stay sharp longer than any blade in my shop, swivel knife or otherwise (although my Knipschield Detail Knife holds a damn fine edge too). That means less stropping and more cutting. I was thinking of adding another maker in there just for the fun of it but haven't decided which to try next.

Chris

Chris,

I agree with you totally concerning the SK3. Paul made me a 3/8' angle blade with a little more thickness that his standard, and it really performs. I can't imagine any other knife and blade that will outperform it. I am old school in that if it isn't broken, don't mess with it, so that is all I will use unless someone comes out with a miracle blade. I am not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Terry