Atom Clicker 3-Phase To 1-Phase Conversion

[Yanni]

I've rung Atom UK, here in England and they sell recondition machines.

The problem is we have not access to 3-Phase in our premises, however Atom UK said they can install an inverter to the clicker

that would convert 1-Phase to 3-Phase for an extra £130( around $200).

Now, I rung a different company and they said do not use any inverters/converters as they will burn the motor!

Wondering who is the right and who is the wrong in this case, can the guys at Atom UK suggesting something that is not correct?

Thanks...

[two crows]

I've rung Atom UK, here in England and they sell recondition machines.

The problem is we have not access to 3-Phase in our premises, however Atom UK said they can install an inverter to the clicker

that would convert 1-Phase to 3-Phase for an extra £130( around $200).

Now, I rung a different company and they said do not use any inverters/converters as they will burn the motor!

Wondering who is the right and who is the wrong in this case, can the guys at Atom UK suggesting something that is not correct?

Thanks...

Hi I have a milling machine and a lathe running on a 3 phase converter. They are on the same converter . You cant run both machines at one time and you loose some power but they work fine for my purpose. This converter is maby 6"x6" x 2" thick. I dont think it cost more than 60 bucks. You can also use a 3 phase generater but thats a hole nother motor and quite expenseve. If I can help you with some info let know.. Mike

[Yanni]

Hi I have a milling machine and a lathe running on a 3 phase converter. They are on the same converter . You cant run both machines at one time and you loose some power but they work fine for my purpose. This converter is maby 6"x6" x 2" thick. I dont think it cost more than 60 bucks. You can also use a 3 phase generater but thats a hole nother motor and quite expenseve. If I can help you with some info let know.. Mike

Thanks Mike, Would it be safer to have a single phase motor installed instead?

[Ferg]

We use a very large converter in our shop. If you only have the one piece of equipment that is three phase, by all means install a single phase.

Make sure you get correct horse power.

ferg

quote name='Yanni' timestamp='1344508719' post='259856']

Thanks Mike, Would it be safer to have a single phase motor installed instead?

[Art]

We use VFDs (Variable Frequency Drives) on all our 3-phase equipment. These allow the motors to be run at variable speeds. Our clicker uses one at a fixed speed. VFDs are capable of running the motor at more than intended speed, so be careful, there are also other options like soft start that are helpful. Their price has been coming down in the past few years and options are going up. VFDs de-rate when going from single phase to 3 phase, for instance, we use 3hp VFDs on 2hp motors. Your distributor should have the proper de-rating charts for the VFDs they sell.

Art

[Yanni]

We use VFDs (Variable Frequency Drives) on all our 3-phase equipment. These allow the motors to be run at variable speeds. Our clicker uses one at a fixed speed. VFDs are capable of running the motor at more than intended speed, so be careful, there are also other options like soft start that are helpful. Their price has been coming down in the past few years and options are going up. VFDs de-rate when going from single phase to 3 phase, for instance, we use 3hp VFDs on 2hp motors. Your distributor should have the proper de-rating charts for the VFDs they sell.

Art

Thanks, so I guess this is the sort of thing I need:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3HP-2-2KW-PROFESSIONAL-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-10A-220-250V-VFD-q8-/180799933238#ht_15215wt_1397

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-QUALITY-3HP-2-2KW-10A-220-250V-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW-e3-/190630271972#ht_14591wt_1146

as opposed to:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRANSWAVE-Static-Converter-2hp-1-5kW-Single-to-3-Three-Phase-240v-to-415v-/150873893447?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item2320c8ea47#ht_4034wt_1397

What machines would require variable speed control?

[Art]

Yes, but make sure you match input and output voltages.

Art

[Dink]

I been using an Atom clicker for about five years and I run mine on a rotary phase converter similar to this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PL-3T-Pro-Line-3HP-Rotary-Phase-Converter-Custom-TEFC-Generator-/290755365940?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item43b25ecc34

This has worked very well, but I see they have come up in price since I got mine. I am also asking this as a question more than a statement, but Where clickers run at a steady speed I do not really know the benefit of a VFD, we use them on wells and other equipment, but the the rotary converter on the clicker seems to work much like a soft start.

Dink

[Itch]

I run a big clicker that is 3 phase..As we only single phase we also use

VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE and it works very well..Just make sure you match the amp draw and a little larger unit is what worked for us..I think that here in the states I paid around 600 dollars for the unit..

[CampbellRandall]

I think the confusion is in what kind of converter to use.

• A static phase coverter is a small box wired in line with the machine. This is the cheap solution, but due to the way it functions (it shares the 2 wires from the single phase source among 3 wires in the machine) you will loose 1/3 to 1/2 of your HP. In other words the machine will not perform to its full potential and you have the possibility of damaging the motor.. I only recommend a static convertor for small load, continuous run motors where you can afford to loose the power.
• A Variable Frequency Drive will work, but only for motors that are rated for the application. A VFD is normally intended to adjust the speed of a motor in a drive system. VFDs are not originally designed to function as phase converters, and you will again loose the HP rating.
• The best solution, but not the cheapest is a Rotary Phase Converter. This will allow your machine perform without and risk of damaging the motor. If you compare the cost of a VFD, a Rotary Converter is not much more.

[two crows]

I think the confusion is in what kind of converter to use.

• A static phase coverter is a small box wired in line with the machine. This is the cheap solution, but due to the way it functions (it shares the 2 wires from the single phase source among 3 wires in the machine) you will loose 1/3 to 1/2 of your HP. In other words the machine will not perform to its full potential and you have the possibility of damaging the motor.. I only recommend a static convertor for small load, continuous run motors where you can afford to loose the power.
• A Variable Frequency Drive will work, but only for motors that are rated for the application. A VFD is normally intended to adjust the speed of a motor in a drive system. VFDs are not originally designed to function as phase converters, and you will again loose the HP rating.
• The best solution, but not the cheapest is a Rotary Phase Converter. This will allow your machine perform without and risk of damaging the motor. If you compare the cost of a VFD, a Rotary Converter is not much more.

Thanks Campbell,,, thats what I was trying to tell him also, I just wasn't smart enough to lay it out for him. Good job... mike

[Art]

There is a major problem with the rotary system in it is built for a particular load, and outside that load, the efficiency drops like a stone.

Running the VFD on single phase derates the VFD, NOT the motor, this means you have to buy a bigger VFD for the motor hp when running on single phase. The only real problem with VFD is giving the operator the capacity to overspeed the motor.

I have a clicker that comes from the factory (recently) with a VFD installed and warranted. They could have put a rotary in there, but the VFD was a cheaper solution.

I have been using VFDs since they were far from a cheap solution (late '90s) without a motor or VFD failure. It doesn't matter what you use as both solutions are terribly inefficient. The best solutions are a motor generator, or simply a single phase motor of the correct size.

Art

[Ferg]

There is a major problem with the rotary system in it is built for a particular load, and outside that load, the efficiency drops like a stone.

Art,

I think with all the conversation about this you made the correct assumption with " simply a single phase motor of the correct size."

We have run a Rotary Phase Converter for close to 20 years. Total horsepower rating is 40 HP. We can run four machines that total 37.5 HP at one time without blowing the breakers. We have a 10 HP motor on a sander that makes us shut down the CNC to run it. One large load is a big Vacuum pump. I have to start it then turn the CNC routers on, then the CNC control or it knocks out the computers.

Not much fun but better than paying the power company thousands of dollars, as we did in our previous shop. I think our Rotary Phase Converter cost between $3000 and $4000 twenty years ago.

It has been a good one, it makes the meter spin pretty fast. The voltage is not as "dirty" as some coming from the power plant.

ferg

Art

[CampbellRandall]

There is a major problem with the rotary system in it is built for a particular load, and outside that load, the efficiency drops like a stone.

Running the VFD on single phase derates the VFD, NOT the motor, this means you have to buy a bigger VFD for the motor hp when running on single phase. The only real problem with VFD is giving the operator the capacity to overspeed the motor.

I have a clicker that comes from the factory (recently) with a VFD installed and warranted. They could have put a rotary in there, but the VFD was a cheaper solution.

I have been using VFDs since they were far from a cheap solution (late '90s) without a motor or VFD failure. It doesn't matter what you use as both solutions are terribly inefficient. The best solutions are a motor generator, or simply a single phase motor of the correct size.

Art

Our standard solution to this problem has been the rotary phase converter. Of course any solution not properly matched to load will not work. A single motor application is debatable, but for heavy or multiple loads like a band knife splitter, RPC is the way to go.

The rotary converters are available in 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, & 10 HP. You need to add 50% to the rating of the converter, if you have 1 HP motor on the ATOM, you need a 2HP RPC ($600)

The VFD is not something we have tried as a single phase solution, only for variable speed drives. I understand the rating of the drive has to be increased because the single phase will double the amperage and burn the diodes. The cheapest VFD I could fined rated for both 3ph and single was $360, so in this case its cheaper; however if your have an application over 3HP, a RPC is cheaper. I would warn that not all motors can be used with a VFD. A VFD-driven general purpose motor can overheat if it is run too slowly, and voltage “chopping” can lead to premature failure of the motor.

As Art said, the best solution is to replace the motor. In this case the ATOM uses an IEC motor which are only commonly available in 3-phase, so a converter will have to work.

[Art]

A little warning here.

The Chinese are still in the middle ages as far as motors go. Tiawan is better. Having said that, Baldor makes excellent modern technology motors which will not have any problems with a quality, properly sized VFD. GE made many very good motors for industry for a long time, which today would be available at scrap prices, they will just be 3 or more times bigger than a comparably sized motor today, you'll have to put oil in the shaft cups too. Personally, I'd never use a VFD or even an RPC on anything but a US made motor.

Do not hesitate spending more on quality components in your drive systems, not if you want the assurance that it will run when you flick the switch.

Art

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I have an Arco Roto -Phase converter for my machine shop equipment.

Static converters will not work on all equipment. My friend had a lathe that his static would not operate due to it having an electronic clutching sysytem. Everytime he went to start it , the lathe would stall out.

A way that I have run my vert milling machine, 10"x16" surface grinder, and my 18.5"x54" MOnarch lathe is by using a jack motor. This is nothing more than another 3 phase motor of equal or larger HP that you wire through on your way to the equipment you want to run. This method has been used for decades by hobbyists. I have yet to pay for an old 3 phase motor.

If the style of mount is the only thing keeping you from mounting a single phase motor then a machine shop can make an adapter.

[amuckart]

This is interesting to me as there are a couple of 3-phase clicking presses nearby. What sort of HP rating do the motors in them usually have? I know nothing at all about the inner workings of clicking presses.

[Art]

Hi Al,

A 25 ton Schwabe DS uses either a 3hp or 5hp. I have seen more threes than fives. If I was running one up around the max all the time I would want the five. A ten ton press would probably run a 1 or 1.25 motor.

Art

[Gump]

There is another solution, you hook capacitors to the third leg and it tricks the motor into thinking it has proper load. Please check with an industrial electrician for proper capacitor ratings. I have seen this used for machine lathes up to 5 hp. No drop in power. Gump.

[Willbury]

Reviving this old thread, with the hope of getting some more info on using VFD's with clicker presses.    From what I can tell most of clicker presses (modern types) that use a 3phase power to run the motor run the electronic control portions of the clicker on single phase power.   The 3 phase power is run through a transformer with converts to single phase for the controls.     Does the VFD output have any detrimental/problematic effects on the single phase electronics of the machine?