First saddle

[JAM]

Here's my first saddle - thank you to everyone here who gave me advice while I built it, and to my oh-so-patient and humorous teacher, Bob Hickman of Hickman Saddlery in Post Falls, ID.

It's 15-1/2", inskirt rig, on a Hometead Wade tree from Travis Dittmer in TX. The tree is wood, covered in Kevlar and carbon-fiber composite rather than rawhide (very lightweight), and custom fit for my horse. It's a full-double rig with short bars and skirts (she's a short-backed mare with mutton withers and long shoulder blades). The saddle fits her like a glove.

My goals were (1) to fit the mare, and then (2) to build a comfortable, close-contact, lightweight saddle for me. It weighs 34 lbs with back cinch and cast aluminum stirrups. The ground seat was built-in - that's the way the Kevlar-covered trees are made - and the seat was so good to begin with that very little build-up was necessary - which leaves me sitting right down the tree and on her. The lovely skirt stitching was done by my teacher, Bob, because his big machine is just a little too much for me to handle (and I wanted this to look good).

The front rigging rings are 8-1/4" below the bottom of the bars - thank you, Keith Siedel - and that drop is perfect because it gets cinch lumps below my knees so I never notice them.

All critique is welcome - and thanks again to everyone who answered all my questions while I built it. Here are pix (I hope I did this right and they come through...)

Julia Kelly

McCormack Hill Leather

[jwwright]

Congrats on your first saddle,and a very nice job. JW

[Tosch]

Julia,

in case I haven`t said so before

Congratulations

Tosch

Edited July 31, 2008 by Tosch

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Julia,

way to go on the first saddle... Looks like a good useable saddle!

A few notes that may help you in the future...

you mentioned the tree was custom fit for your mare, I'm not sure how "custom fit" your tree actually was but most saddlemakers will agree that "micro fitting" for a particular horse is not a good idea. If a properly designed tree needs to be altered significantly to fit a single horse, there is a good chance it will not fit other more "typical" horses as well as it should. Saddles will generally outlast horses by a good number of years meaning you as a saddlemaker will have to worry about where that saddle spends the rest of it's life and what it's doing to other horse's backs when the horse it was "custom fit" for is gone. A properly designed tree should fit a good number of similar horse backs that have slight variations without having to be altered for any particular horse. By the looks of the horse the saddle is on, I'm guessing the treemaker probably did next to nothing to get the right fit other than choosing the correct gullet width and height (or handhole width and height). If you continue on with making saddles for others you will eventually get customers asking you to fit a certain horse. As a saddlemaker you should try to choose the most appropriate tree size for the horse in question with out offering to have a trees bars significantly changed.

For the construction of your first saddle it has a nice overall appearance with a pretty good seat shape. After riding it some you'll have a better idea of what you like and don't like about it and where you need to make changes. There isn't a whole lot of criticism to be given since most of the small details will take care of themselves as your skills improve with future saddles. The photo of the rear of the saddle shows quite a gap between the rear jockeys and the skirts. The saddle will look much cleaner if you can have the rear edge of the jockeys tight over the top of the skirts. I've attached a photo to show you what I mean.

One way to get your jockeys tight is to use a spike on them to pull the leather around and forward when you are installing them. You can start by putting your jockeys on the tree and keeping the center line between the two jockeys slightly off center to one side by about 1/2". Pull the jockey up tight to the back of the cantle and put a nail in the area where the rosette will be. Using a long seat spike type awl, put it in one of the string holes on the other jockey and spike both downward and inward, pulling the jockey down toward the rear rigging dee and forward towards the cantle. This will put a tremendous amount of tension on the jockey and pull the rear edge of the jockeys down on the skirts and also help give you a tight fit around the back of the cantle. While the spike is hold the tension, put a nail in the area around the string holes where it will be covered by the rosettes. When you spike jockeys in this fashion, the rear edge will be so tight that you cannot lift it off the skirts.

I like that you didn't lace your skirts all the way to the back as this is a preference of mine... it'll allow those skirts to flex with short backs or high rumps. One thing i'd suggest is slightly changing your jockeys so that they better cover the lacing of the skirts. From your photos I can see a small amount of skirt lacing... your work will look cleaner if you cover that up.

The only other suggestion i'd offer from your photos is to stay aware of where the bottom of your front rigging dee is in relation to the top of your blevin buckles keepers. Keith offered 8 1/4"s as a number for how low to keep that rigging dee but you have to also account for a rider's leg length when deciding how low to drop the rigging. From your photos, it looks like the blevins keepers are getting close to the rigging and if you were to tie a knot in your latigo around the rigging dee, your stirrup leathers will start to catch on that knot when your legs move forward. Generally, this isn't a problem with longer legged riders, but the shorter the legs the more you need to be aware. If you are riding that saddle with a knot instead of a buckle and pin type cinch, look down and have a look at how that area of the stirrup leather moves over the rigging plate.

Good luck with your next saddle and watch out for the "addiction"... you'll be thinking about saddles last thing before you sleep and first thing when you wake up!

Darc

[JAM]

Thank you, Darcy, for your in-depth critique. All your points are well-taken and I will have them firmly in mind as I begin my next saddle - very helpful.

About the custom tree thing, though... I know there is a lot of opinion about the advisability of custom-fitting trees, but I look at it this way: Most of the boots in a boot store are made to fit most of the buyers, but there are some people (like myself) who can't wear any (or very few) of the boots in a boot store - why should I be in pain trying to wear boots that most other people can wear? So I shop long and hard for boots that are comfortable (and keep them forever) - and I'm in heaven when I can afford custom boots made for me.

It's the same with the tree. Most factory trees fit most horses, and there are a few horses that most factory trees don't fit. There is considerable difference between the Bowden tree that was supposed to fit this mare and the Dittmer tree that does fit her - much more than gullet width and hand-hole. More than that, Travis sent me the tree in bare wood so I could fit it on her and make final requests - more flare in the bar tips and a little shaved off the upper front bar tips. Yes, it's micro-fitting, but why should she be uncomfortable wearing a saddle just because it fits most horses? (And I think he might be incensed at the idea that he didn't do much to fit her...). The same holds true for the tree for my next saddle - a Nikkel tree for another horse that turns out to be also out of the normal 85% of horses - we did the measurements and photos and Rod made the tree, and it seems that this horse has a 95-degree bar angle (I knew she was broad-backed, and Bowden could not get it right) and much more rock than most horses. Again, I compared both Bowden trees that were supposed to fit her with the (gorgeous, work-of-art) Nikkel tree and there is a huge difference, both side-by-side and on her. Her own tree will make a difference to her and in her performance. And since I'm the saddlemaker, why not?

I understand that in Europe there's a tradition that a horse has its own saddle and when the horse is sold, the saddle goes with the horse. No doubt they're English saddles and the stuffing conforms to the horse, but still the concept of fitting the saddle to the horse applies.

Some day when I make saddles for other people they probably will not want to go the custom tree route because it takes a LONG time and costs more, but the idea that my two mares have saddles that fit them far better than factory trees makes the whole process even more worthwhile.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Julia,

glad to hear you are concerned enough about fit to use handmade trees. I hope you aren't misinterpreting what I'm saying as I only use handmade trees in my saddles and know how poorly a factory made tree fits in comparison. I do not give people the option of a factory tree in my saddles because my experience with trees from Bowden, Superior, Hercules etc... is such that I don't believe in them at any cost. Just because someone is in a hurry or doesn't want to spend an extra couple hundred bucks doesn't mean that their old nag deserves anything less than your two mares.

The one thing you must keep in mind at all times is how quickly a single saddle can affect your reputation. As an example, the 95 degree bars you mentioned... if they fit the horse they are intended for a bit better, that's great! The concern as a saddlemaker is what happens when that person decides they no longer want the saddle... maybe they got rid of the horse, quit riding, need money, didn't like the saddle..etc... that saddle goes to another person without the information that the bars are 95 degrees. The new owner sees a saddle that isn't working on their horses, doesn't know why, but does see your makers mark on the seat and tells the next ten people about the poor fit and who made the saddle. This is a common scenario in the saddlemaking world and word spreads like wildfire. One bad saddle will do more to your reputation than a hundred good ones.

As far as Travis being inscensed, I'd hope that he'd be responsible enough to consider the future horses his trees may end up on and not create anything that could possibly damage other horses. Shaving a hair here and there is one thing, completely altering a bar pattern is another. By "microfitting" I do not mean making small adjustments such as a little more flare; what I do mean is altering the complete bar to fit a single, odd shaped back. It will also be his reputation on the line when such a saddle moves to the next owner.

I'm not suggesting you ignore the needs of horses that need a little "extra", but I am suggesting approaching oddball horses with caution.

Darc

[JAM]

Thanks, Darc - now we're on the same page. Having seen the difference in quality I will never use factory trees. either - the handmades are worth the extra bucks. And I will be careful not get too "oddball" with future saddles I make for sale, thank you for your advice. These first two are for me and for my mares, and I doubt I'll ever sell them because they are my first saddles, for better or for worse, and these two horses are mine for life (and if not, their saddles go with them with full explanations).

I had a thought - haven't fully followed through on it yet - but I've made plaster casts of the undersides of both trees, using plaster-impregnated gauze strips for modeling work. I'm going to try coating them with fiberglass and resin (Bondo car stuff) to stiffen them, so I'll have a model of the tree in each saddle for better fitting that saddle on a horse. The idea (you've probably guessed) is that when buyer is interested in a saddle, we look at the tree model for that saddle and see how well it fits their horse (and/or use it as the starting point for ordering the right tree specs for that horse).

What do you think? Am I getting too anal about tree fit? Or do you think this might be a good thing (if I can make the models work)?

Julia

[greg gomersall]

Thanks, Darc - now we're on the same page. Having seen the difference in quality I will never use factory trees. either - the handmades are worth the extra bucks. And I will be careful not get too "oddball" with future saddles I make for sale, thank you for your advice. These first two are for me and for my mares, and I doubt I'll ever sell them because they are my first saddles, for better or for worse, and these two horses are mine for life (and if not, their saddles go with them with full explanations).

I had a thought - haven't fully followed through on it yet - but I've made plaster casts of the undersides of both trees, using plaster-impregnated gauze strips for modeling work. I'm going to try coating them with fiberglass and resin (Bondo car stuff) to stiffen them, so I'll have a model of the tree in each saddle for better fitting that saddle on a horse. The idea (you've probably guessed) is that when buyer is interested in a saddle, we look at the tree model for that saddle and see how well it fits their horse (and/or use it as the starting point for ordering the right tree specs for that horse).

What do you think? Am I getting too anal about tree fit? Or do you think this might be a good thing (if I can make the models work)?

Julia

Julia why not save yourself alot of messing around with the casts and try Dennis Lane's equine profiling cards on horses and keep info on back profiles and what you find that fits the different profiles. Greg

[ArtS]

Good job Julia. You'll be riding that with pride. Since I'm still learning I have no advice to give but I do have a question.

I prefer a slick seat. Most if not all of the women that I trail ride with say that they have to have a padded seat. Since you made this for yourself did that ever come into your mind to pad the seat? If not, why not?

The next saddle I make will be for my wife so I'm doing all the research I can up front. I have to make her happy!

Any other women saddle makers reading this I also welcome your knowledge and opinion.

Thanks,

Art

[JAM]

Good questions.

Greg - I contacted Dennis about his profiling system a year ago - told him I wanted them and he said they were not quite in production yet. I've never heard back from him again. I would like to have that system but he's been too hard to find.

Art - This saddle is a roughout seat only because my fiance thinks that this mare will someday be his backup heeler, and he wanted a roughout seat in her saddle. I built the ground seat for me because it will be a long time before he ever ropes on her (he lives three states away and already has a primo roping horse), and he'll probably like the seat fine as long as it's roughout

I personally have only owned Crates saddles with padded seats, and the ledge and stitching at the edge of the padded seats give me dreadful blisters unless I ride with one of those sheepskin seat-savers (the whoopy-cushion). No doubt the problem is the factory-made saddle, but now I have an aversion to padded seats. I've ridden in other saddles that were well-made, with hard seats, and had no problems. My philosophy is that if the seat is made well it doesn't need padding. Padding can be used to hide flaws or make a generic (or bad) ground seat acceptable to more riders.

My next saddle will be a Buster Welch reiner with hard, smooth seats (because you can do pretty tooling on the smooth leather seat!). You gotta go with what your wife wants, but see if you can get her a ride in a well-made saddle with a hard seat - she might decide she likes it the cowboy way! I think if the ground seat is built for her rather than for a man, she won't need the padding - but preferences die hard.

[ArtS]

I'll work on her. I agree with you.

Thanks,

ArtS

[Traveller]

ArtS, for the past couple of months, I've been riding in a Billy Cook Ranch saddle (a decent production saddle) with a hard, slick seat and I really like the feel of it. It looks slippery and hard -- which I suppose it is! -- but I'm very comfortable in it. I've been on a couple of 2- and 3-hour trail rides and haven't been uncomfortable at all (and I only have a regular amount of padding on my own tush... not too big, not too small...). If I were going to do an all-day ride, I'd probably invest in a sheepskin tush cush, but as it is, it's great for arena work and regular trail rides.

In fact, my gelding did a huge spook today and I stayed right in the middle of the saddle. He didn't get far -- he's a pretty sensible horse -- but he's got a huge, powerful hind end so the initial jump can be pretty big. And the saddle didn't feel slick in the slightest.

When I eventually order my custom saddle, I'll definitely want a hard, slick seat. I figure that if I find this production saddle seat comfortable, then a custom one should be amazing!

Here's a picture of it:

[ArtS]

When I made mine the man teaching me said if it's made to fit me I wouldn't need a padded seat. I listened to him but I was doubtful. The saddle that I was using I had put a pad on to make it more comfortable. Well he was right. I've ridden 8 hours in this saddle and no problems for me or the horse. I feel better in it after 8 hours in this one than in my old saddle on after 2 hours. Now if I can just talk my wife into it. She doesn't even want to ride in mine.

After I finished mine I added bucking rolls. (You can see them in the second picture)

ArtS

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

JAM – Dennis has his website up and running now. Contact him through www.DennisLane.com.au or PM him or David A Morris through this board. We feel his system is definitely the way to go as far as keeping records and being able to compare between horses easily and consistently.

As far as the tree we made for you, we just wanted to be clear that we didn’t do anything really “extraordinary” with it. The idea behind a “custom tree” is that you get a tree that works well for the horse or horses it is intended for. It doesn’t necessarily mean it is a “weird” tree. We used the flattest bar angle we now produce for your horse based on the back drawings you sent us (made before Dennis’s production cards were available), but it is getting to be an angle we are using more commonly as time goes on. It is not excessive but it is toward the far end of “normal”. The rock again fits into a “not uncommon” category. I always wondered about that designation when it came to diseases, etc. but it is handy. Your mare has more rock in her back than the majority of horses, but it is not excessive or “weird”. We see other horses like her. So while we are glad this tree fits your mare the way you want, it shouldn’t need to be restricted just to her. Other horses with the larger body type and a back that isn’t really straight (flat front to back) should do fine with it.

I would encourage you, if you have a chance, throw it on as many horses as you can before you build on it. This is a great way to see what sort of horses it will or will not work on. It won’t fit a narrow thoroughbred, but I think you might be surprised at the range of horses it will be useful on, especially with a bit of padding. That may help in the future to know what else you can comfortably use your saddle on if you have a chance to ride other horses.

[JAM]

Thanks, Rod - great idea. I've considered that, and now you've motivated me to actually DO it before I upholster the tree. Before I upholstered my Dittmer tree, I put it on the mare for whom you made your tree, and it fit reasonably well (better than the Bowden QH or Full QH trees) although just not as "perfectly" as her own tree. But I use my new saddle on both mares now and they're both happy. And thanks for the link to Dennis' site.

Julia