Are There Any Major Differnces?

[focus]

hello,

i'm new to the forum and i am hoping to pick your brain on a comparison of a few machines. i have read the other posts on sewing machines and am now wondering if there are any major differences or considerations between a cobra 4 and a cowboy 4500 (or any other compareable machines).

we will be using the machine to make saddle bags and other accoutrement for motorcycles, using leather of various weight and 10-11 wont be uncommon in our product.

i know steve is a member of this forum and i believe bob is (?). perhaps i should just give each of them a call and chat with them, but i thought i would ask folks that are using them for some input. just want to make sure there aren't any major differences other than shipping cost (haha) as we are on the west coast (eugene, or).

thanks so much for any input.

cheers,

~focus

[Art]

They are both (Steve Tayrien -- Cobra, and Bob Kovar -- Cowboy) are fine gentlemen and their machines are very good. You would have no problem buying from either. You might see if you can take delivery at a show such as Pendelton Oregon. You will save yourself a couple of hundred dollars that way and get a personal test drive from Steve. I would call them both and talk with them, but you sound like you know what you want.

Art

[Techsew Ron]

call around, see who will give you the best deal and who actually has the machine in stock!

Ron

[Cobra Steve]

Hi focus. I will be in Pendleton in November for the Leather Show. Feel free to come by our booth and see the COBRA Class 4. If you order ahead of time, we will be glad to bring one to you and you will save shipping. We have machines in stock if you choose to order now or in the near future. Thanks, Steve

[Wizcrafts]

I own a Cowboy CB4500 and am totally pleased with it. It sews just about anything I throw at it. I got mine with the full accessory pack and am glad I did.

I was previously sewing for a friend, on his Cobra Class 4 and it is also a fine machine.

These 441 clone machines are quite similar. The differences are in how the dealers set them up and adjust them and what you get with the machine. The Cowboy machines come with stainless steel feet and throat plates, allowing you to sew wet leather without discoloring it.

[Art]

As far as I can tell from my machines, the other brands than Cowboy have hard chromed feet. Chrome is the anti rust component of stainless steel (around 20%). The part of the chromed feet (not Cowboy) that is in contact with the leather is approx 99% chrome (maybe 100%). Given that, I have never had a problem with modern feet or plates staining the leather. It can happen with older machines that were used in the shoe and other leather trades years ago. I have never seen staining on any leather that I run through my Cobra machines.

Art

[jimsaddler]

As far as I can tell from my machines, the other brands than Cowboy have hard chromed feet. Chrome is the anti rust component of stainless steel (around 20%). The part of the chromed feet (not Cowboy) that is in contact with the leather is approx 99% chrome (maybe 100%). Given that, I have never had a problem with modern feet or plates staining the leather. It can happen with older machines that were used in the shoe and other leather trades years ago. I have never seen staining on any leather that I run through my Cobra machines.

Art

Hi Art

As the one who sugested that Cowboy create the Stainless Steel Feet, Needle Plates. As a user for some 50 odd years of Sewing Machines on Leather, I have found that there is Leakage from all Chromed or Nickel Plated Feet! Good Leather contains Tannic Acid and or other Acids which react with these Platings to cause Ferric Stains on Damp Leather, especiallywhen there is slight damage from wear and tear.

My Father who was a non-ferris and Feric Moulder, advised me many years ago that Stainless Steel was the only way to go to find Feet or Needle Plates that would not leave the Grey to Black stains on Damp Leather when sewing. Also the resulting items could be altered and Buffed up without affecting the stainless capability they posess.

Cowboy took my advice on board and after a bit of trial came up with the Feet and Plates that are supplied at no estra cost to the Buyer. Result! Say you want to alter the Harness Foot set to sew very close up on Buckles or Rings. Just grind more off the Heel and Toe the Buff it up to shine again, then use it! "No discolouration of the Leather". Just a wonderful practical and efficient Tool that save time and effort without cost.

Plated Steel Feet etc are now superceded, thank goodness and Cowboy have followed the Tradespeoples advice all the while and produced what we require. Hence the reliable products of to-day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[Art]

Hi Jim,

I can agree with the part on altering the foot. I have never experienced problems with marking as you describe. I have modified feet for particular operations and have not had trouble with them even though I took the chrome off. When I approched this with Steve (Cobra) he started manufacturing those feet and including them in his accessory package. They produced what I required.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

Jim, thanks for that explanation about altering stainless feet. I did a little sanding on my right toe foot and have ground down and polished a couple of my throat plates. It's good to know that this doesn't change the stainless properties. I intend to have some custom feet made to sew particular jobs and they will be cut from stainless steel also.

I like the looks of chrome, but hate it when it starts to chip off. I was using the roller edge guide on my friend's Class 4 and the guide hit the right toe on an upstroke and chrome began flaking off of the roller. A stainless roller wouldn't have been damaged, or, could have just been buffed smooth.

[Greystone]

a thought when doing any grinding or buffing SS, used only al oxide material/ wheel/paper, non ferrous or a SS brush

DO NOT use any thing on SS that has brushed/ground/sanded, Steel as it will pu and carry the iron oxide to the SS and VIOLA rust on SS

[Trox]

Thank you Jim, every day I learn something new is a great day.

I have the Cowboy accessories ( however, an other 441 clone) and I always altering/adjusting my feet’s and plates. I have an advice to them too; be sure to make all your 441 feet’s the same length. Preferable the default length of the TSC 441 (as we are using the original parts and service manuals for these clones). This way we do not have to be sewing machine mechanics every time we want to change a foot.

Thanks

Trox

[jimsaddler]

Hi Art

You appear to be lucky. If the Chrome is chipped or removed then it is for sure it will mark damp or moist Leather. Also the Feric residue will be left on dry natural Veg and many times when it is damped it will cause a stain.

This is born out by so many others in the Leather Trades being aware of this. As you should be aware with your extensive knowledge of Machines. Steel, cracked Chrome or chipped Nickel plating and Damp Veg Tanned Leather don't mix!!

So might we please get on with the job of enjoying the Forum and not try to build up one Machine above the other. Steve is a nice Guy and sells a nice Machine. It seems he doesn't require all of this help to sell his machines especially on the Forum. Especially when you are going against the established well known knowledge of the Leather Trades. Stainless doesn't Stain, Steel does unless it's properly plated. Hence Stainless can be ground, shaped to suit and Polished without causing problems.

Please Have a Happy Day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

Hi Jim,

I can agree with the part on altering the foot. I have never experienced problems with marking as you describe. I have modified feet for particular operations and have not had trouble with them even though I took the chrome off. When I approched this with Steve (Cobra) he started manufacturing those feet and including them in his accessory package. They produced what I required.

Art

Edited September 24, 2012 by jimsaddler

[KAYAK45]

To the question of the ORIGINAL POST: NO!

All else is service and advice. You get that from Steve @ Cobra, Bob @ Cowboy, and Ron@ Techsew! Pick the guy you like/or is near.

I like my cowboy 4500, AND the advice on my Singers. You do what you need to do!

Kevin