Need Suggestions For Pancake Holster Retention

[Matt Alsaker]

I put this pancake holster together for a Springfield XD Sub-Compact 3". I need to fix the pucker that developed at the bottom near where the front sight post would be and need to make the reinforcing piece bigger so it comes over the top of the slide some. I need suggestions on how to fix a retention issue. The retention is great, while the holster is not on a belt. Once I put the holster on, the pressure from the belt curving the holster around my hip tightens the leather and makes it tough to draw the firearm. Will moving the slots for the belt loops further away from the firearm help reduce this or should I move on of the stitch lines off the firearm a little? I'm hesitant to move the stitch line since the retention is so nice when the holster is not being worn, but darn thing needs to be wearable and functional.

[Shooter McGavin]

I "pre-curve" my holsters somewhat, but they are still very tight. Thats part of the break in process IMO.

[renegadelizard]

Hey Matt, i dont think it would hurt to move your belt slots out a 1/4 inch or so....these guns are rather thick, and just like revolvers need some more room...when i do these chubby guns, i usually space them at about 3/4 to 7/8 inch from the stitch line..another thing i do is to mold the holster with a belt blank in place..this sets the retension as it is worn and not flat...let me know how it works out...the pucker can be mitigated by inserting a dowel or something similar for a sight channel...it usually pulls that extra out...

[TwinOaks]

Spray the inside of the holster with a LIGHT misting of water, put it on a belt, insert the gun (it's an XD, a little moisture won't hurt it), and wear it around for most of a day.

A tight holster can be stretched, but a loose holster is an accident waiting to happen. When I wet mold holsters, I use the gun or a model of it and force-stretch the leather to fit. Most of them will 'click' into place when done. If your holster is that snug NOW, it should be just fine once it's broken in. GOOD JOB!

[chiefjason]

I was in a thread on another board recently where they were saying the the "belt retention" is made worse if the holster is molded as much on the back as the front. Basically, the belt routing around the gun mold is what tightens it up when worn. Wearing it will certainly break it in. Trying to have less mold on the back side will prevent it some. Not the easiest thing to do. I'm tinkering with a holster right now that should be flat on the back side. I want to see how that compares.

And don't move the stitch lines. Belt slots maybe, stitch lines no.

[SooperJake]

There's another holster making board on the net?

[TwinOaks]

I was in a thread on another board recently where they were saying the the "belt retention" is made worse if the holster is molded as much on the back as the front. Basically, the belt routing around the gun mold is what tightens it up when worn.

If I'm understanding this correctly....the idea is that the tension from the belt going around the gun is what holds the gun in place????

Whoever is giving that advice needs psychatric help.

The HOLSTER should hold the weapon in place.

A proper holster will:

Hold the weapon in place to prevent loss, and still provide a reasonably release from the holster;

Keep the weapon in the same position every time (because muscle memory from training will have you grabbing at where the gun is supposed to be);

Provide adequate room for the user to attain a full firing grip before they ever unholster the weapon;

Serve a dual role of protecting the user's body parts from the gun as well as protect the gun from damage (sweat, bumps, scrapes, etc.)

Usually, all this can be done and be comfortable.

Looking good is an added advantage, but the holster should be able to do those things on it's own. The wearer of the holster should NOT rely on running a belt around the weapon to provide secure carry.

_____

If the intent of the quoted lines is that the belt is what tightens up a holster so that it WILL perform correctly.....

See above,

A belt simply holds the holster in place. It should NEVER play a critical role in the retention/function abilities of a holster

Once upon a time, I had some differing ideas about gun leather....I was fortunate enough to have several people who make holsters for a living set me on the right road.

[sgb]

Move the front belt loop slot further out.

[chiefjason]

There's another holster making board on the net?

Not exactly. Just some makers hanging out in the holster section of another board. See below. There are a few familiar faces over there.

If I'm understanding this correctly....the idea is that the tension from the belt going around the gun is what holds the gun in place????

Not quite. The molding, stitching, and all the other details hold the gun. Same as always. But the way the belt routes around the mold of the holster can INCREASE the retention of the holster. Sometimes to the point that it's hard to use. Moving the belt slots out is likely solving the same issue as molding less on the back. Relieving tension from the belt. And I have seen that in one of my first beltslides that I purchased. My Tagua slide had much more retention when worn. Think about the outward pressure that a good gun belt could but on the back of a holster. A little extra is probably not too bad. But too much and you get the problem the OP is having. A molded back could be the cause of it, as the maker was pointing out on the other board. It can also cause the mouth to shrink or possibly collapse making re holstering more difficult. Basically, he was making the case for flat backs on beltslides. Pretty interesting concept and one that intrigues me a bit. I've got one started if I can just find time to work on it.

If you want to check out the thread I'll link it below. And I'll fore warn you. You can argue with him if you want, but you will be arguing with one of the best pros out there. Even if he is out of the business now.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/150569-we-can-learn-even-newbies.html

[TwinOaks]

I do agree that effectively 'folding' or 'wrapping' the holster around the user's waist will change it's properties....I apparently misunderstood the intent of your post. I thought you were saying that the holster (type) was built so that it NEEDS to be tightened up by the belt.... Can you build to accommodate the curvature of the wearer? Most certainly...it's one of the aspects of fitting a holster to a person instead of making a generic 'one size fits all' pattern.

One of my friends is a local LEO and is on their version of SWAT. In FULL tactical gear and weaponry he scales out at 205lbs. He's one of those wiry guys that eats a 16oz steak and loses weight in the process....and he can hide behind a 2x4. Putting a holster on him requires either a single point attachment or widely spaced belt loops because he has a 26" waist (and incidentally my favorite belt customer because it takes NO time to make one for him). Any narrow width holster gets pulled too severely....the standard Tagua wraps so far around him that it's almost like folding the 'wings' up to make a box. Even kydex paddle holsters 'flare' out away from his profile.

On the other side of that coin is my friend who runs the gun store - He's pushing 380lbs, and obviously has a much larger radius at his hip. Holsters with closer slots work well on him.

So I think we're in agreement after all, and that the guy posting the info on the other board is correct.

I've made some flat back holsters, and in using them I've found that once the holster breaks in, there really isn't any difference because of the placement of the molding. Depending on how it's designed, the stress of supporting the holster/gun will be either mostly on the back panel, pretty equally shared by the front and back, or mostly on the front panel. If you build to support the holster, then once it's broken in, you'd have to be intentionally over tightening the belt to make it deform. My support of this line of thinking is the design of holsters with exotic inlays. For those, the front panel is mostly flat because it's more difficult to get detail molding when you have extra layers. Retention is achieved through molding on the back panel.

Also, two layers of leather molded in a tight curve (like at the top of the gun) will resist collapsing pretty well. For people like Katsass, who build with doubled leather -grain out on both-, the holster is pretty dang stiff. 'Mouth bands' on IWB holsters is simply an abbreviated second layer to provide that support.

ETA: If I screwed any of that up in my description, I'll fix it later. I'm still trying to figure out why I'm up and awake at 02:15.

[emr454]

Not quite. The molding, stitching, and all the other details hold the gun. Same as always. But the way the belt routes around the mold of the holster can INCREASE the retention of the holster. Sometimes to the point that it's hard to use. Moving the belt slots out is likely solving the same issue as molding less on the back. Relieving tension from the belt. And I have seen that in one of my first beltslides that I purchased. My Tagua slide had much more retention when worn. Think about the outward pressure that a good gun belt could but on the back of a holster. A little extra is probably not too bad. But too much and you get the problem the OP is having. A molded back could be the cause of it, as the maker was pointing out on the other board. It can also cause the mouth to shrink or possibly collapse making re holstering more difficult. Basically, he was making the case for flat backs on beltslides. Pretty interesting concept and one that intrigues me a bit. I've got one started if I can just find time to work on it.

If you want to check out the thread I'll link it below. And I'll fore warn you. You can argue with him if you want, but you will be arguing with one of the best pros out there. Even if he is out of the business now.

http://www.defensive...en-newbies.html

So to me, it looks like you would cut the front panel oversize, mold it to the flat back panel, and then determine your stitch line once molding was complete? That would save me some hassle when trying to predict where I should stitch.

Eric

[Dwight]

So to me, it looks like you would cut the front panel oversize, mold it to the flat back panel, and then determine your stitch line once molding was complete? That would save me some hassle when trying to predict where I should stitch.

Eric

That is exactly how I make most of my pancakes, . . . they are super comfortable, . . . have good retention, . . . release well, . . . and my customers keep coming back.

Must be doing something right anyway.

May God bless,

Dwight

[chiefjason]

So to me, it looks like you would cut the front panel oversize, mold it to the flat back panel, and then determine your stitch line once molding was complete? That would save me some hassle when trying to predict where I should stitch.

Eric

So far I have gotten through cutting, molding front, and cutting back. I'm kind of at a standstill for a while. Other things are taking priority right now. But yeah, that seems to be the basic concept. It makes some things easier, but it also makes some things a bit tougher. So, it's a trade off and I'm still trying to figure out if it's worth it to me. And yes, you set up your stitch line after the molding which takes away the guess work.

I could see some benefit to IWB as well. A flat back is very comfortable on an IWB holster, ie all the tuckable hybrids out there.

[SooperJake]

That is exactly how I make most of my pancakes, . . . they are super comfortable, . . . have good retention, . . . release well, . . . and my customers keep coming back.

Must be doing something right anyway.

May God bless,

Dwight

By "molding the front to the back panel" , Dwight, you are refering to pre-molding the firearm with the gun/dummy and then stitching? Or, did I miss something in translation?

Jake

[Dwight]

By "molding the front to the back panel" , Dwight, you are refering to pre-molding the firearm with the gun/dummy and then stitching? Or, did I miss something in translation?

Jake

You didn't miss anything, . . . that IS how I do it.

I have made pancakes that are nothing more than a stitched bag with slots/straps in the front or back, . . . they are not as comfortable (for me) and don't always turn out as "true" as this method is to forming it real good and close.

They are equally formed on the front and back, . . . and as a personal thing, . . . I just don't like them as well either wearing or making.

I make the back, . . . it is done when I lay it down, . . . stitch the leading edge and sight track stitches, . . . wet and form the holster, . . . allow it to dry, . . . finish stitching, . . . then do the dye/finish process.

Works for me.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Matt Alsaker]

Thanks for all the input. I wore the original holster around for a day and the break-in loosened everything up making the retention great. The firearm holds firmly in place, but I don't have to fight to get it out of the holster. I still went ahead and moved the belts slots each about a 1/4 inch further from the firearm.

The idea of a flat or flatter back panel is very appealing to me.

I make the back, . . . it is done when I lay it down, . . . stitch the leading edge and sight track stitches, . . . wet and form the holster, . . . allow it to dry, . . . finish stitching, . . . then do the dye/finish process.

Works for me.

May God bless,

Dwight

Dwight - regarding the top piece of leather - do you still use a template to cut it prior to assembly to get the proper shape or are you molding a rectangular piece of leather and then cutting it into shape after molding? I would image trying to cut leather after molding doesn't work. The back plate seems easy enough to make up a template for, but the front plate seems like there could be a lot of trial and error. I'm going to give this a shot for the next one I make.

[Dwight]

Thanks for all the input. I wore the original holster around for a day and the break-in loosened everything up making the retention great. The firearm holds firmly in place, but I don't have to fight to get it out of the holster. I still went ahead and moved the belts slots each about a 1/4 inch further from the firearm.

The idea of a flat or flatter back panel is very appealing to me.

Dwight - regarding the top piece of leather - do you still use a template to cut it prior to assembly to get the proper shape or are you molding a rectangular piece of leather and then cutting it into shape after molding? I would image trying to cut leather after molding doesn't work. The back plate seems easy enough to make up a template for, but the front plate seems like there could be a lot of trial and error. I'm going to give this a shot for the next one I make.

Old axiom: if you make good patterns, . . . you make good holsters. If you make junk patterns, . . . you make junk holsters.

I use a generic template for the back, . . . pretty straight forward, . . . but certain steps are necessary to get the proper cant, . . . stitch line along the sight track, . . . etc.

Stitch the two pieces together in the front half of the holster.

Wet the outside piece, . . . and wet mold it to the weapon.

When it is dry, . . . re-insert the weapon, . . . lay it face down on a cushion, . . . squeeze the back and front leathers together, . . . mark it with a pehcil, . . . remove the gun, . . . cut the leather, . . . glue, . . . sand edges, . . . bevel edges, . . . stitch groove, . . . sew and finish.

Just that simple, . . . don't over think it.

The first couple or so, . . . or if you try to do it without a pattern, . . . you will waste some leather, . . . but you WILL make a nice holster. After a short while, . . . you get a real feel for that outside piece, . . . the shape, . . . the size, . . . and the pattern you make.

I make reall good patterns, . . . pride myself in doing so, . . . but I still cut the outside piece a little big, . . . I want to trim that outside piece to match the back.

That is how it works for me. I don't have the luxury of perfect cutting tools or a clicker template, . . . mine are individually cut by hand, . . . one at a time.

May God bless,

Dwight

[chiefjason]

I like the idea of a pattern for the front, but can't quite wrap my mind around it. I cut a rectangular piece of leather and laid the top side along the cant line I wanted for the firearm. This reduced the amount of cutting I had to do on the front piece. Basically, just some cutting to around the trigger area to ensure a full grip. Then some cutting on the bottom to trim it up closer. I cut my back piece larger and trimmed to the front. Just the opposite. However, take all this with a grain of salt as I am trying to figure this out as I go.

Thanks for the details Dwight. Good to know a pattern is possible. I won't say I wasted a lot of leather, but more than usual. And I may have gotten the front too short. I'm going ahead with it to see for sure. Next one I'm cutting longer though. I got it glued, cut, edged, and sanded so far. Might lay out my stitch lines tonight or tomorrow. Retention seems pretty good right now.

[renegadelizard]

ive been thinking on this, trying to come up with a way to do a flat backed pancake, and i believe i understand it to the point of being able to make a pattern for the front side using basic math...here is how i figure it...make a pattern like you would for a regular pancake, marking your stitch lines using the 1/2 gun thickness plus 1/2 total leather thickness method and establish a centerline through the middle of the gun where the pattern is curved the least...lay the top piece of your pattern on a new sheet and trace the front half of the pattern...mark the start and stop points for the sight channel stitch line...slide the top pattern perpendicular to the centerline one thickness of the gun toward the back of the holster...mark your trigger guard/dust cover stitchline and trace back half of pattern...remove top pattern and connect the outside top and bottom lines on your new top pattern....cut and mark stitchlines...use stitchlines to mark glue lines...glue one side and sew, glue the other side and sew...insert pistol and mold...this method should allow for enough leather on the top to mold the full profile of the gun without having to mold the top before sewing...after it is all dry and such, you may want to look at it and tweak the pattern as needed...will this work?

[JLSleather]

Four years later, still the same conversations going on, so just marking this one.

Making a pattern for a curved (or flat backed) pancake holster might take a little thought, and maybe even an extra sheet of paper or two.  But it is done. Most of the ones who only make those "50/50" pancakes are generally just not willing to think it out to do it otherwise.  This is standard answer in today's world, though -- just blame the wearer.  Don't like the crap leather you got sent?  You aren't creative enough. Sewing machine won't stay adjusted?  You aren't doing it right.  Holster is tight on the belt?  You did break it in.  Blahblah.

I'm far from done - always laying out something.  But here's a pic of a holster which is made from paper patterns. -- one for the front, one for the back.

Retention is virtually the same whether the holster is in your hand or on your belt and cranked down.  Slots are move IN (yes, IN closer to the firearm) than a "normal" pancake, taking less room on your belt, making easier to conceal, wears longer due to less "flexing" of the leather on and off the belt.

Unlike so many in today's sea of marketing poo, I dont really feel the need to go make a video of something when someone else has already done that quite well.  You want to SEE this being done --- formed pancake style holster from a paper pattern, precut parts before beginning - see Sam Andrews' view of that (well done, I say). There is no need for another video.  Oh, incidentally, the holster Sam makes here is a lined holster, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFsXw3gabqk#t=16

 

[JLSleather]

 

ive been thinking on this, trying to come up with a way to do a flat backed pancake, and i believe i understand it to the point of being able to make a pattern for the front side using basic math...here is how i figure it...make a pattern like you would for a regular pancake, marking your stitch lines using the 1/2 gun thickness plus 1/2 total leather thickness method and establish a centerline through the middle of the gun where the pattern is curved the least...lay the top piece of your pattern on a new sheet and trace the front half of the pattern...mark the start and stop points for the sight channel stitch line...slide the top pattern perpendicular to the centerline one thickness of the gun toward the back of the holster...mark your trigger guard/dust cover stitchline and trace back half of pattern...remove top pattern and connect the outside top and bottom lines on your new top pattern....cut and mark stitchlines...use stitchlines to mark glue lines...glue one side and sew, glue the other side and sew...insert pistol and mold...this method should allow for enough leather on the top to mold the full profile of the gun without having to mold the top before sewing...after it is all dry and such, you may want to look at it and tweak the pattern as needed...will this work?

I'm not sure I exactly followed this, but I think we're basically saying the same thing in different words.

http://www.jlsleather.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Holster_Theory.pdf

 

[Red Cent]

I lay the gun on a piece of poster board. I draw an outline of the gun. Then I sketch the style/form of the back piece around the gun. I usually add suede to the back and turn the slick side of the leather in so it looks lined :).

I cut apiece of leather strategically from the cow side, cut the appropriate throat of the pouch, wet the leather, throw it on the gun and stick both in a food vacuum bagger. Instant mold. After about thirty minutes, I cut the bag and gingerly place the leather in the sunshine. Meantime I sew the cosmetic edges of the holster. Sweat guard and sometimes the toe and the throat. Suede has been glued on. I don't do stiffeners. I don't like them. 'Course money talks.

Place dry molded leather on the back, looks OK then glue. Cut off everything that doesn't look like a holster, sand and burnish, dye and burnish, then stitch front to back.

[Red Cent]

The easiest way to retain retention is a screw.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by Red Cent

[JLSleather]

16 minutes ago, Red Cent said:

I don't do stiffeners. I don't like them. 'Course money talks.

I'm with ya, actually.  I usually include a 'stiffener' with my patterns cuz some folks look for 'em.  But if you got two layers glued together, she's already 'stiffened', with less bulk and a smoother profile.