Adler 167?

[tostrap]

Hi All! My search for a sewing machine continues... I just missed an opportunity for a Pfaff 145 (which a number of members here seem to have had good things to say about it), but the same seller said they have a Adler 167 available. However, I have not been able to find too much info about it. I found the manual and parts booklet, but those did not tell me very much info (that I can translate anyway). Parts do not seem as readly available either? Can anyone shed any insight into whether this machine is suitable for veg tan leather (double layer of 6-7oz on the upper end is my usual)? The seller said 'they use #21 needles with thick thread'... thanks for your help!

Edited December 31, 2012 by tostrap

[Wizcrafts]

A number 21 needle will only pass #105 thread, which is an odd size. You might be able to squeeze #138 through the eye, if it is tightly bonded. This is not what leather sewers consider as large thread. #138 is upholstery grade thread, or can be used to assemble wallet backs to interiors, or chaps, or leather jackets. It has 22 pounds breaking strength.

[Trox]

Hi All! My search for a sewing machine continues... I just missed an opportunity for a Pfaff 145 (which a number of members here seem to have had good things to say about it), but the same seller said they have a Adler 167 available. However, I have not been able to find too much info about it. I found the manual and parts booklet, but those did not tell me very much info (that I can translate anyway). Parts do not seem as readly available either? Can anyone shed any insight into whether this machine is suitable for veg tan leather (double layer of 6-7oz on the upper end is my usual)? The seller said 'they use #21 needles with thick thread'... thanks for your help!

Edited December 31, 2012 by Trox

[Trox]

Hi Tostrap,

First of all information and parts on the Adler 67 can be used on 167, except from the hook who is bigger (same as the 267 machine) Parts are available from Dürkopp Adler, information is available on

http://sew24.blogspot.no/p/downloads.html . There is many aftermarket parts available too; http://www.kwokhing.com/ .

Feet’s from the following Adler machines will fit the 167; 68,69,67,168,169,268,267 and 269.

It is an upholstery class machine and it sews up to 11 mm thick. Takes up to TKT 15 to 13 thread (Ticket No. metric polyester, equals to Tex 180 to 207).

Needle size 180 Nm (or Size 24).

When the manual tells you it is using the needle size 21 (Nm 130), it means the machine is adjusted with this needle. You can go several sizes up and down from this, as you can with other machines too. The 167 is a very good machine it has much better quality than its successor the 267. The 67 came in many different subclasses, when the 167 only came in two (that I know of) 273; two needle and 373; one needle.

In the 67 class the -373 was the leather subclass (together with the-73). The 167-373 is the same machine only with a bigger bobbin size. It has triple feed, double leaf springs for the foot pressure and uses needle system 134. It has maximum 6 mm stitch length and reverse feed.

For use on leather you can change to smooth feet `s and lower the feed dog in level with the needle plate (If it is not already adjusted like this) to avoid markings on backside of the leatherwork.

Alternating height on feet’s is adjusted on the backside of the head.

This is a much better built machine than the newer class 267 is, it runs like a Swiss watch.

Double layer 6-7 oz is about 5 to 6 mm, it will handle this thickness without any problems, I have sewed 11 mm veg tan on a 67 machine I had before.

As on all upholstery class machines (except the ones who are special made for thick thread) the limitations is on thread size. I have heard of people that have adjusted them for a bigger needle size. It is possible; however, they are not made for it and will not perform well this way.

I now have a DA 267 and a Pfaff cylinderbed who are in the same duty rating; I use maximum Tex 135 in them. For thicker threads, I use my 441.

Look for play in the needle bar and wear in the hook (like on all old machines). Genuine DA hook is about 160 Euro, Hirose about 100 Euro.

This was a very popular sewing machine; therefore, many aftermarket parts are available for it. Here are some of them:

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/DurkoppAdler167SewingMachineParts

I hope this was to some help for you.

Good luck and Happy New Year.

Thanks

Tor

(I do not know what is wrong with this editor, it is non responsive and will not let me adjust the letter size, you have to forgive me. I will ask Johanna about it.)

Edited December 31, 2012 by Trox

[tostrap]

Tor and Wiz, again thank you for your knowledge and insight! Very much appreciated! Finally I found one machine thats actually in the ballpark! ! again, thanks and happy new year!!

[Trox]

You are welcome, and happy new year to you.

Tor

[studioaudrey]

Hello, I am new to this forum and excuses for adding to this topic 8 months later, but I recently bought a used Adler 167-73 for making canvas and leather bags and I have a question about sewing tanned leather with it.

I had no problems sewing a single layer of tanned leather for a strap to the canvas, but this past week I tried a double layer of the leather and it just wouldn't work. The leather is 4 mm thick, so a double layer is 8 mm. The top and bottom threads won't connect and I hear a clicking sound somewhere in the bobbin when I try sewing this this layer.

I'm using size 20 upholstery thread with a size 18 leather needle and I am turning the wheel by hand for leather sewing (I don't have the control over the clutch motor yet for small detail work).

So my question is particularly for Tor, how did you manage to sew 11 mm tanned leather with this machine? Do I need a thicker needle and do I need to make some adjustments with the hook and how do you do that?

Best,

Audrey

[Trox]

Hello, I am new to this forum and excuses for adding to this topic 8 months later, but I recently bought a used Adler 167-73 for making canvas and leather bags and I have a question about sewing tanned leather with it.

I had no problems sewing a single layer of tanned leather for a strap to the canvas, but this past week I tried a double layer of the leather and it just wouldn't work. The leather is 4 mm thick, so a double layer is 8 mm. The top and bottom threads won't connect and I hear a clicking sound somewhere in the bobbin when I try sewing this this layer.

I'm using size 20 upholstery thread with a size 18 leather needle and I am turning the wheel by hand for leather sewing (I don't have the control over the clutch motor yet for small detail work).

So my question is particularly for Tor, how did you manage to sew 11 mm tanned leather with this machine? Do I need a thicker needle and do I need to make some adjustments with the hook and how do you do that?

Best,

Audrey

Hi Audery, I had a 67-73 ( who is exactly the same machine as yours, but older). I do not have this machine anymore, I sold it. However, I have a video of it sewing 11 mm. ( I believe it was bridle leather). The Machine was set up with a Cobra 600 w brush-less servo motor, and either a Nm 120 or a Nm 140 leather needle.

With the 120 needle I use TKT 40 (Tex 69) polyester or nylon thread, with the 140 needle I use TKT 20 (Tex 135) thread. I made a video for the person who bought it and tested how thick it would sew, myself I have heavier machines for thick leather and would never use it for such work.

If I had to use it for heavy work I would take every precaution not to break any needles. I would use Nm 140 and TKT 20 thread ( Tex 135 thread with Singer size 22 leather needle). I would glue or stapled my leather together first to avoid the layers to move and lock the needle. Use diamond or LR point needles and crank up the foot pressure to prevent the leather from moving (when the thread loop is formed).

If the leather is hard or old I would use oil, water or saddle soap to soften it. This is not a heavy stitcher. Nevertheless, it should manage 8 mm. if it is not too hard.

If you are using size 18 (Singer) equivalent to NM 110 (1,1 mm thick with a caliper if you do not know the sizes), thats to thin and it will bend away from the hook, because of the heavy thread tension you get sewing that thick. Thats why your machine is unable to make the thread loops.

With heavy leather the needle thread relationship is more important than with thin material too. Using the machine up to its limit every adjustment must be right to avoid stitch errors. What kind of thread are you using, does it have any TeX or TKT (Ticket) sizing?. Is the layers glued or stapled together? Check you hook and bobbin house for damages before trying again.

Good luck

Tor

Edited August 17, 2013 by Trox

[studioaudrey]

Dear Tor,

Thanks very much for the response.

I will get some 120, 130, 140 & 150 needles to see if they will work…I don't think I need to go heavier than this?

My thread is TKT 20, I have both polyester upholstery thread from Gutermann and some nylon Serafil thread.

I didn't glue or staple the leather together, I just wanted to fold it over double and stitch it to make a round bag handle. I ended up using a rivet instead.

Thanks again!

Best,

Audrey

[Trox]

Dear Audrey,

when you fold the leather over like that it would not move as much if it is two different layers of leather. Then its important to glue or staple them together to avoid them from move and lock to the needle. A size 18 is way to small for the tkt 20 thread (tex 135), you need a size 22 to 23 (Nm 140 to 160) for that thread; Or else it would be in trouble. I have used tkt 15 (tex 180) on the Adler 67-73. However, its not made for any bigger threads than tkt 20. Any thicker needles that 140, check the distance between the hooks and the needle (to avoid the needle hitting the hook, its adjustable)

The 167 uses the same hook as the newer 267, 268 and 269 machines, you can buy a new hook with quick adjustable needle guide for these machines. (original Dürkopp Adler or aftermarket parts; such as Hirose and Cerliani)

http://sew24.blogspot.no/2011/10/adjustable-needle-guard-for-hooks-for.html

Both Gutterman and Serafil by Amman will work very well with this machine, I use the latter myself. The sizes Nm 120 to 160 as you have listed are European needle sizes, but every packet of needles are usually marked with Singer sizes too. Get some leather pointed needles either LR or D (diamond pointed). There is a pinned topic about needle sizing top of this forum you might find interesting.

Good luck

Tor

[studioaudrey]

Dear Tor,

Oh, really good to know, I think I have been using too small needles in general, also for the canvas.

I've been using the TKT 20 the whole time because I like the look of the thick thread.

I was just about to order some needles right now.

The guy at the industrial machine place suggested 110 needles and TKT 30 thread when I said I was busy with canvas.

But I forgot to mention that I wax the canvas, which also makes it quite thick and I have indeed been having a hard time finishing the seams of the bags with twill tape (because there are some spots with 5 or 6 layers of canvas).

Enclosed are some photos of bags that I made with the 110 needles:

Best,

Audrey

[studioaudrey]

oh, and I also just found this needle & thread size chart now: http://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

[Trox]

Dear Tor,

Oh, really good to know, I think I have been using too small needles in general, also for the canvas.

I've been using the TKT 20 the whole time because I like the look of the thick thread.

I was just about to order some needles right now.

The guy at the industrial machine place suggested 110 needles and TKT 30 thread when I said I was busy with canvas.

But I forgot to mention that I wax the canvas, which also makes it quite thick and I have indeed been having a hard time finishing the seams of the bags with twill tape (because there are some spots with 5 or 6 layers of canvas).

Enclosed are some photos of bags that I made with the 110 needles:

Best,

Audrey

Hello Audrey,

I use 120 for TKT 40 and 130 for tkt 25 and 30. When you sew (thin) textile material wrong needle would not be a problem, because the material has natural holes in it ( it would be a problem with thicker material). When you sew thick leather/material the needle have to make room for both the threads, using to small needles you will have stitch errors. Such as the material will stick to the needle, and the needle will break, bend and hit the sewing hook. etc.

Thats why you get problems when you sewed two layers of leather. Use the thread needle comparison chart or the thread needle sliding test in the pin topic about needle sizing. Yes you have used the wrong sizes all a long, because the machine is that powerful it did the job even so. Right size needle is very important to get a good result when you sew thick material.

Good luck to you

Audrey.

Have a nice day.

Tor

[frasermade]

...

For use on leather you can change to smooth feet `s and lower the feed dog in level with the needle plate (If it is not already adjusted like this) to avoid markings on backside of the leatherwork.

...

Hi all

How do you lower the feed dog on a 167, or indeed remove the issue I'm currently having - I'm getting a very pronounced circle impression/mark where the feed dog needle hole (for want of a better description) is landing on the back of my leather.

I have sanded and polished my walking feet and the difference is phenomenal - no more marks from the feet on the leather - but this small circular mark around each stitch on the underside of the leather is a problem for making cases and the like, where leather is on both top and bottom.

Many thanks in advance

Gordon

[DrmCa]

Fraser,

Your feed dog does not look right to my uneducated eyes.

Did anyone try to increase the size of needle hole to use the larger needles?

I never had issues with bottom leather marking and my feed dog in Pfaff 335 looks way smaller. Only size 22 needle with size 90 thread would pass freely.

Tried size 24 needle with 415 thread and it would not pass through, which is correct.

[frasermade]

Fraser,

Your feed dog does not look right to my uneducated eyes.

Did anyone try to increase the size of needle hole to use the larger needles?

I never had issues with bottom leather marking and my feed dog in Pfaff 335 looks way smaller. Only size 22 needle with size 90 thread would pass freely.

Tried size 24 needle with 415 thread and it would not pass through, which is correct.

Hi there

Thanks for the reply

I've just got this machine so it's however it was. I'm finding a million things that need attention - the needle plate (throat plate?) for example - the screws that hold it on - 1 doesn't fit so well and the other just isn't the right size of bolt. So I'm ordering some new ones, and I guess I may as well get a new feed dog whilst I'm at it. It does look like it has been "enlarged" somewhat.

Although looking at the college-sewing parts, the genuine feed dog does have quite a large hole in it as stock.

[Trox]

The hight of the feed dog is adjustable underneath the bed of your machine. But first measure the hight with a feeler gauge, caliper etc. It should be on the top of its path when the needle meets it. It should not raise more than a one millimeter over the throat plate. Buts the best set up for Wegtan leather would be in the level with the throat plate (on its highest point). However, like it's mention in the above post; your feed dog have a very large hole (it's worn out by needle hits).

There will always be round push out marks from the needle, the material the needle push out will have to go somewhere.

As soon as you have completed a seam, wet the leather with a damp sponge and hammer the back side of the leather with a smooth faced leather hammer. This will smooth out the markings and lock your stitches (close the leather around the thread) But do it at once before the markings fixate.

Always hold the both thread ends tight until you have locked your stitches, needle down in the material and reverse one stitch before you sew forwards again (with 4 to 5 stitches before you release them). The loops underneath in your picture is because you have not locked your starting stitches.

Try to ease off the foot pressure as much as possible, but not as much that your material are not hold still when the stitch are made. To little foot pressure and you will have skipped stitches. The needle have to be past the bottom dead center (BDC) and on its way up again (and the hook have catches the top thread) before you lift the pressure foot to turn the material. Otherwise you will have a skipped stich, loose loop on the bottom etc.

At the end of your seam, reverse (or turn direction, "poor man's reverse") and sew at least 5 stitches backward in the same stitch holes to lock your seam. Wet (damp) your leather underneath and hammer your seam.

This is a little beginners crash course in machine sewing leather, and something we all have experienced. You will manage it with some practice, this and your thread tension settings are all a matter of some practice.

I think your backside will look much better with a new feed dog, there aren't many teeth marks. Nevertheless, a new feed dog will have much sharper teeth. You could try to find a smooth one. If there are to much teeth markings, then you lower it like described before. You will find the information in the service manual on how to proceed. Or ask me when/if that time comes.

If you get an proper Ho Hsing needle position motor and install it right. The needle will always stop down a little bit past the BDC, with the thread loop formed. Then you will never have any issue with loose stitches in corners and such. Your sewing foot set looks good, if you need different ones. Left, right, welting and special foot set. You could try http://www.kwokhing.com/da/

You can use pressure foot from DA 267, DA 269, DA 268. Adler: 67, 69, 68, 168 and 169. They are all the same

The DA 467, 767, 367, 669 and 867 (9) uses a different type foot.

Good luck with your new machine.

Tor

[DrmCa]

Is it just me, or the hole in the new feed dog looks almost 2x times smaller in proportion to the dog width?

Although looking at the college-sewing parts, the genuine feed dog does have quite a large hole in it as stock.

[Trox]

No, it's not only you, it's worn out by needle hits. It will also be a poor working needle guide, and allow he needle to bend away from the hook. Might be causing skipped stitches too, hitting something the needle should not hit (hook and bobbin case in worst case senario). A Nm 160 needle would be the biggest usable needle in this machine. Some will try a 180, but it's not advisable. It is a upholstery class machine and no heavy leather stitcher, the thread size is limited to the 15 (tex 180) top and a size smaller in the bobbin. I have a DA 267-373 and I never use it on any thing heavier, rarely heavier that tkt 20 (tex 135). That's because I don't have too I guess (I have heavier machines), but also for the best result.

Tor

[frasermade]

The hight of the feed dog is adjustable underneath the bed of your machine. But first measure the hight with a feeler gauge, caliper etc. It should be on the top of its path when the needle meets it. It should not raise more than a one millimeter over the throat plate. Buts the best set up for Wegtan leather would be in the level with the throat plate (on its highest point). However, like it's mention in the above post; your feed dog have a very large hole (it's worn out by needle hits).

There will always be round push out marks from the needle, the material the needle push out will have to go somewhere.

As soon as you have completed a seam, wet the leather with a damp sponge and hammer the back side of the leather with a smooth faced leather hammer. This will smooth out the markings and lock your stitches (close the leather around the thread) But do it at once before the markings fixate.

Always hold the both thread ends tight until you have locked your stitches, needle down in the material and reverse one stitch before you sew forwards again (with 4 to 5 stitches before you release them). The loops underneath in your picture is because you have not locked your starting stitches.

Try to ease off the foot pressure as much as possible, but not as much that your material are not hold still when the stitch are made. To little foot pressure and you will have skipped stitches. The needle have to be past the bottom dead center (BDC) and on its way up again (and the hook have catches the top thread) before you lift the pressure foot to turn the material. Otherwise you will have a skipped stich, loose loop on the bottom etc.

At the end of your seam, reverse (or turn direction, "poor man's reverse") and sew at least 5 stitches backward in the same stitch holes to lock your seam. Wet (damp) your leather underneath and hammer your seam.

This is a little beginners crash course in machine sewing leather, and something we all have experienced. You will manage it with some practice, this and your thread tension settings are all a matter of some practice.

I think your backside will look much better with a new feed dog, there aren't many teeth marks. Nevertheless, a new feed dog will have much sharper teeth. You could try to find a smooth one. If there are to much teeth markings, then you lower it like described before. You will find the information in the service manual on how to proceed. Or ask me when/if that time comes.

If you get an proper Ho Hsing needle position motor and install it right. The needle will always stop down a little bit past the BDC, with the thread loop formed. Then you will never have any issue with loose stitches in corners and such. Your sewing foot set looks good, if you need different ones. Left, right, welting and special foot set. You could try http://www.kwokhing.com/da/

You can use pressure foot from DA 267, DA 269, DA 268. Adler: 67, 69, 68, 168 and 169. They are all the same

The DA 467, 767, 367, 669 and 867 (9) uses a different type foot.

Good luck with your new machine.

Tor

Hey Tor

Many many thanks for your valuable tips. I'm really new to not just the industrial machine world, but the machine world in general, so I'm always open to tips!

I've still got a way to go before the Adler 167 is running perfectly, including aligning the reverse holes with the forward holes, swapping out the feed dog for the new one I just ordered, and generally getting the machine up to speed.

I plumped for the Jack JK-563A-1 motor from College-Sewing and I have to say I do very much like it. I would like it to go just that little bit slower but I think that's just my inexperience than a necessity. Silent running which is nicer than the clutch, and of course easier to handle! I'm sure once I am comfortable with using it, feeling for the reverse switch and getting all my timings together it'll be just fine for me!

You also wrote:

It is a upholstery class machine and no heavy leather stitcher, the thread size is limited to the 15 (tex 180) top and a size smaller in the bobbin.

Is there a rule or a system to choosing how much smaller the thread you use in the bobbin, or is it just one down i.e. if you're using 15 in the needle, you use 20 in the bobbin?

Thanks again for all your help,

Best

Gordon

[DrmCa]

From what I saw when deconstructing industrial made leather goods, there can be quite a big difference in thread size.

[LumpenDoodle2]

Have you set your motor speed to the minimum (5). That and setting the needle to stop in the leather means I can sew really, really, slow on mine.

Another thing I've found (yes, I'm a complete newbie to servo motors, and no doubt everyone else knows this), by pressing on the pedal with your heel, the needle lifts fully up.

I love my servo motor.

[frasermade]

Have you set your motor speed to the minimum (5). That and setting the needle to stop in the leather means I can sew really, really, slow on mine.

Another thing I've found (yes, I'm a complete newbie to servo motors, and no doubt everyone else knows this), by pressing on the pedal with your heel, the needle lifts fully up.

I love my servo motor.

Hi

Yeah I've got it to 05, with the 200rpm at minimum pedal. It's just practice that's required to get used to the pedal action, the machine action....all the action!

What do you mean by setting the needle to stop in the leather? I got the needle positioning version but to be honest I've tried fitting it and can't find a place to fit the angled rod to stop the sensor housing from rotating with the flywheel. I think I'll need to fab a bracket up and I don't have the time to do that at mo.

Tried the heel press thingy but doesn't do jot...I guess I need the needle positioner for this function!?

Decided I like the technique of stitching, turning the piece and stitching back over it - saves me faffing with the synchro of the reverse switch and keeps everything neater. I am having trouble with the backstitches unravelling themselves.

Thanks for all your help so far, very much appreciated.

[Trox]

Hey Tor

Many many thanks for your valuable tips. I'm really new to not just the industrial machine world, but the machine world in general, so I'm always open to tips!

I've still got a way to go before the Adler 167 is running perfectly, including aligning the reverse holes with the forward holes, swapping out the feed dog for the new one I just ordered, and generally getting the machine up to speed.

I plumped for the Jack JK-563A-1 motor from College-Sewing and I have to say I do very much like it. I would like it to go just that little bit slower but I think that's just my inexperience than a necessity. Silent running which is nicer than the clutch, and of course easier to handle! I'm sure once I am comfortable with using it, feeling for the reverse switch and getting all my timings together it'll be just fine for me!

You also wrote:

Is there a rule or a system to choosing how much smaller the thread you use in the bobbin, or is it just one down i.e. if you're using 15 in the needle, you use 20 in the bobbin?

Thanks again for all your help,

Best

Gordon

HI, so you did not buy the Japanese motor. I have yet to see a Chinese motor that is flawless, without any errors at all. Perhaps this is the one, sooner or later they will manage a good motor. Attach the rod for the synchronizer (pos.head) to the belt cover. Or the screw holes on back of the head for attaching a belt cover, if your machine is without a belt cover. If you attach it to the table the position will be unaccurate. (because the the machine head is moving in its rubber bushings) I guess you just have to make something to fix it, without any pictures of your machine I cannot tell. There should be something with the motor to attach it?

One thread class down in the bobbin yes, when you sew with the heaviest thread. When you use tkt 20 or less you can use the same top and bottom.

Slower? What is the slowest setting in r pm´s? Buy the Ho Hsing or a Efka.

When you are finished with installing motor and new parts, call a local Durkopp Adler mechanic and ask how much he wants to come and time (service and adjust it) your machine. A one hour service when they sew your machine off. Normally they take one hours pay. If you have someone close by, otherwise you can bring the machine head to them too. That's normally not expensive. Or you can fiddle around your self until you get it right. A pro mechanic will get your machine sewn off perfect and you can start using your time on sewing leather. Even where I live in the most expensive country, it's not that expensive to have it done. I never did this myself, but I have friends that has done it.

Even if your machine only has one issue (you might think so), you got to do all the machines adjustments and in the right order. It will take you a very long time to learn all this and get the right tools for it. (make them or buy DA special tools) Then, get it right the first time. A perfect Adler 167 is a very good machine. It does not have the highest foot lift, stitch length or take the heaviest threads in its class (like a new DA machine). But it runs like a Swiss watch and sews a beautiful stitch, quality is the best there is. And important, a DA mechanic knows what a perfect 167 should preform like. Then you will know that the sewing error it makes are operator errors and nothing is wrong with the machine. That's valuable information for every beginner.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck and happy sewing.

Tor

[LumpenDoodle2]

As Trox says, the rod (2 styles in kit) should fit into a threaded hole near the handwheel. This would normally be used for the belt guard (at least on mine). Once you get an anchor for the rod, the setup is fairly easy. The instructions are not the best in the worls, but I've read worse.

I always prefer needle down stop as it guarantees I do not accidently move my work while checking the position etc (just my preference, possibly). The heel press then brings the needle up to remove the material. With the needle positioner, one pedal press completes one stitch 'cycle'. You can then practice with your machine, and try to just make that one stitch at a time, then biuld up from there.

As you say, it's just practice.