Why Don't I See Holsters At This Angle?

[Keeleon Ohms]

So, I picked up some Denix replica revolvers to sell on my website and at shows, and I thought I need to start making some holsters an rigs for them, to really give them that extra cool factor. I've looked at quite a few holster designs on here and learned quite a bit I think. I don't like sewing, because I'm impatient and I think rivets look much cooler, so a lot of the techniques weren't applicable. So this is the first ever revolver holster I have made. I just made it out of some scrap I had sitting around to play with, but after wearing it and drawing from it, I think I really like this design. It can be worn anywhere on the belt even at the belly or back for a crossdraw. What I'm curious about is why have I never seen an "old west" holster that looks like this? They usually always cover the barrel, is that for safety to cover the hot barrel after shooting? And they're almost always straight up and down, when this seems more comfortable to sit and ride with. The main thing I can think of is so you don't sweep your neighbors, which might be a social no-no. Of course, I'm making these just for costumes, so I'm not too concerned with historical accuracy vs. "looking like a tough-guy", but I find the draw to be quite comfortable and easy. And if I were the tough-guy I pretend to be, I'd like to carry like this. Am I just missing something and this maybe DID exist?

Regardless, I just wanted to show off cause I was pretty proud of myself, and I'm sure there's more than a few people in here who'll gladly tell me why this would be terrible for real steel. ;P

[Tree Reaper]

The rivets may scratch your gun, you might consider lining the holster.

The barrels are covered more so for protection of the gun and front sight.

The black from spent powder can get on your clothes as well.

I've seen that style before but usually on autos where the barrel only sticks out about an inch or two.

[TwinOaks]

There's undoubtedly more reasons than I can think of in my current caffeineless state, and Chuck Barrows could probably rattle them off in his sleep....but I'll start with a few.

First there WERE crossdraw holster back then, though typically not at that extreme angle.

Second a holster does two things- it holds the gun, and protects the gun. Remember the time period, and consider that modern ultra tough finishes were't around. Also, modern metallic cartridges weren't developed until around 1860. Until then, pretty much everything was a 'cap and ball' style gun. That meant that the gun needed to be as protected as possible from water/moisture which would ruin the powder.

Construction materials for holsters were also quite different. Aside from jiffy rivets not exitsting, a snap for a thumbstrap would have neen seen as exorbitantly expensive. Rivets were certainly available in those days, but they were more like what we know as burr rivets. The downsidse to using a rivet is that it can scratch the finish of the gun.

Now, the idea of protecting the wearer from a hot barrel seems like it has some merit, but the majority of people didn't go around shooting their gun fast enough to need that protection...nor did they wear shorts, exposing their legs to hot barrels.

Now...to your particular design: Has it occurred to you that several generations of holster makers over close to 150 years of doing this never stumbled across this idea? If you think that, then you are mistaken. The design is impractical for the time period. A gun of any sort was a pretty large investment in those days, used as much (or more) for groceries, as defense. A lot of care was taken to protect that investment. Your design relies on the strap for retention instead or relying on the weight of the gun and the friction/fit of the holster.

Here's a very important historical note for you: There were no fast draw gun fights like you see on TV. Hollywood invented it. And since there was no 'fast draw'. There would have been no fast draw holsters.

I had more in my mind when I started typing, and I'm sure some will come back once i get caffeinated, but that's all for now.

Also, this forum is open to the public...please don't curse.

[TwoMikes]

I compete with and carry a Glock, which is hardly a work of delicate art. l'lI give you my impressions of your design from a modern perspective.

What I'm curious about is why have I never seen an "old west" holster that looks like this? They usually always cover the barrel, is that for safety to cover the hot barrel after shooting?

We cover our muzzles for a couple reasons: Protect the crown of the barrel for accuracy and the front sight from getting ripped off. Protect our furniture. To some degree to hide what we are carrying.

Most people who have bikini holsters use them for range use where they will be shooting multiple guns and just want to put on one holster that will fit all of their guns.

And they're almost always straight up and down, when this seems more comfortable to sit and ride with.

Up and down from 3 o'clock is the fastest position to get on target from. In fact, a person could shoot at the target immediately after clearing the holster (speed rock style). Cross draws, Small of the back, etc. require swinging your gun to the target. The swinging means less control of where it stops and allows your attacker time to grab it.

I'm a firm believer that Murphy was an optimist and as a result I could see enough of the rivets busting that the wearer would lose control of the pistol, either the belt loop or the holster falling apart. Alot of kydex holster suffer from the same vulnerabilities.

Since you don't like sewing, you should consider linking up with some of the holster makers here to see they'd be willing to enter into a consignment type or wholesale arrangement. I'd bet you'd sell more replicas if they were packaged with period-correct holsters. The holster is the frame that should complement the pistol.

[Rayban]

"Why Don't I See Holsters At This Angle?"

I'll bet this dude could have answered your question....

[Keeleon Ohms]

Aside from jiffy rivets not exitsting, a snap for a thumbstrap would have neen seen as exorbitantly expensive.

.....

Here's a very important historical note for you: There were no fast draw gun fights like you see on TV. Hollywood invented it. And since there was no 'fast draw'. There would have been no fast draw holsters.

I didn't think about that, but the physics certainly don't lie. It's tight enough that it doesn't seem like its going to fall out without the snap, but I suppose a bit of bustling and leaning over, it would be safer vertical. And while I think rivets would have been easy enough to do back then, snaps would have been a lot more difficult.

Up and down from 3 o'clock is the fastest position to get on target from. In fact, a person could shoot at the target immediately after clearing the holster (speed rock style). Cross draws, Small of the back, etc. require swinging your gun to the target. The swinging means less control of where it stops and allows your attacker time to grab it.

I think your first point is more to crossdraw vs. main hand draw, and I hadn't thought about that, but the swinging can be pretty slow, especially on a big heavy revolver like this. But my idea for this is more a compliment than a main weapon. If I were to wear this it would be in addition to my right hand holster which actually is vertical.

I'm a firm believer that Murphy was an optimist and as a result I could see enough of the rivets busting that the wearer would lose control of the pistol, either the belt loop or the holster falling apart. Alot of kydex holster suffer from the same vulnerabilities.

This is something I've always been curious about, but hav e no practical experience with. Why are rivets weaker than thread? If a point on the thread becomes damaged that will affect the integrity of the entire stitch and have to be redone. Where if a rivet becomes damaged or popped, it will put more stress on it's neighbors, but the integrity of each one is independent of the rest. Obviously every leather holster I have ever seen has been sewn and not riveted, so I must be wrong, I just don't understand why.

Since you don't like sewing, you should consider linking up with some of the holster makers here to see they'd be willing to enter into a consignment type or wholesale arrangement. I'd bet you'd sell more replicas if they were packaged with period-correct holsters. The holster is the frame that should complement the pistol.

The costumes I'm making are not historically accurate to begin with, as it's mostly steampunk inspired stuff. So I'm not AS concerned with being accurate as some other people might be, I'm much more interested in being creative and doing what I think is cool. In fact, the fact that nobody makes angled holsters like this will be a boon to my wallet, because I know people will like these, and I will be the only one making them ;P I do like at least understanding the practical and historical significance, even if I choose to go against it. For instance, if materials cost played a large factor in why something never existed, that is a moot point to me, since I am making things for fantasy characters who could in theory have a limitless expense account. and since I doubt anyone will ever put a real gun in any of my holsters, the ability to draw and shoot something is less valuable than the ability to show off your cool gun ;P

"Why Don't I See Holsters At This Angle?"

I'll bet this dude could have answered your question....

I actually have almost that exact cross draw on the left side of my costume now, and have seen that before. I was mostly curious about the drastic angle. I do think the next one I make will have a less severe angle due to the weight issue, and I find a long barrel sticking out so much is a target to catch on stuff.

Any body remember "Wild Wild West" with Will Smith? there's a scene where he's asked to disarm, and pulls aside his coat saying "this gun?", and then quickly pulls a pistol from behind his back "or THIS gun"

That's kind of what I was going for with this.

Thanks for all the input

[TwinOaks]

As long as you are doing ONLY costume work, then you can do whatever you want....you can even hang it upside down at your ankle if you see the need for it.

But, if you are EVER going to make holsters for real guns, get all the hollywood/tv/movie "looks cool", or "I saw it in this movie...." garbage out of your head, and start studying the reasons holsters are made the way they are. In the real world, form follows function. There's a ton of good information here from some professional makers who've generously provided decades worth of practical experience.

[Matt S]

I didn't think about that, but the physics certainly don't lie. It's tight enough that it doesn't seem like its going to fall out without the snap, but I suppose a bit of bustling and leaning over, it would be safer vertical. And while I think rivets would have been easy enough to do back then, snaps would have been a lot more difficult.

I've never carried a pistol on my belt but I have done stock work, manual labour and mucked about on horseback. You'd be surprised what falls or is forced out of even buttoned pockets. I think once your holster wears in (stretches) you'd have problems. Aussies largely solved this problem by carrying all their pocket goods on the belt, in wet-moulded pouches.

Why are rivets weaker than thread? If a point on the thread becomes damaged that will affect the integrity of the entire stitch and have to be redone. Where if a rivet becomes damaged or popped, it will put more stress on it's neighbors, but the integrity of each one is independent of the rest.

That is the beauty of the saddle stitch; even if a stitch breaks its neighbours are not actually affected. Each stitch is locked together using a combination of the leather shrinking back around the threads, the tight fit of the threads in the holes in the first place, and the proper mix of waxes in the thread. Some will even go so far as to tie an overhand knot in each stitch, which lies inside the stitch-hole. That's why you don't need to tie the ends off. Furthermore a properly done saddle stitch will not actually remove leather, unlike a line of rivets.