New Cowboy 4500

[barbiesdude]

Two weeks ago I was blessed beyond belief, when I was able to purchase a new Cowboy 4500 from Toledo Inds. I am a total sewing newb other than my Boss Tippmann short time experiences. I live in MI and made the 3 1/2 hr drive down to pick it up. Bob gave me a crash course in running the machine and took his time in answering all my newbie questions. Great experience! If your looking at stepping up a level or want to do it right the first time, I would highly reccomend buying a machine from Bob Kovar at Toledo Industrial.

Jamie

[cmantz]

jealous

[Tree Reaper]

I've had mine for a year now and I'm getting better with it all the time but it helps to use it on a steady basis if you can.

The only thing I don't care for is the large opening in the plate .

It would be ideal if they had an optional plate with a smaller opening and a small feed dog to go with it.

[cmantz]

I am curious what extras come with the Cowboy 4500 compared to the Cobra Class 4P?... I am pretty sure I have narrowed down my choice to either one of these.

If I could only find a used one!

[dirtclod]

cmantz sent you a PM.

[Ferg]

The feed dogs can be lowered or removed. A narrow slot plate can be made to fit the machine. Wiz has this machine and I am sure he has a narrow slot plate for his. It may be an accessory Bob Kovar has in stock. I have a slotted for my Consew but not for the Seiko Cylinder Arm. Biggest advantage to the slotted plate is the nice smooth backside of the stitching. Gets a little tricky in some leathers without a feed dog.

ferg

[Wizcrafts]

My CB4500 came with the accessories package that includes a flat slotted throat plate. I removed the feed dog and installed the flat plate. I have to compensate for the changes in stitch length, using the stitch length lever. I find that it is more difficult to get the reverse stitches to hit the same holes as before, so I feather the stitch lever a bit to compensate.

I also found that the higher the pressure on the feet, the smaller the stitches tend to become. Reducing the bobbin thread tension helps a bit, by reducing the bottom drag. I think it would be really nice if somebody could make and market a Teflon throat plate with a narrow slot.

I must confirm that the bottom looks much nicer without the humongous feed dog that shipped with the machine and all other 441 clones I have seen. The results are very close to my Union Lockstitch machine, which has needle feed, a jumping foot and a narrow slotted throat plate.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any sewing machine dealer who has a narrow feed dog and matching throat plate, or Teflon slotted throat plate available for a Juki 441 or clone. I think that if a dealer on this forum was able to get these parts made, he could sell a shit load of them here.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Wizcrafts

[Tree Reaper]

I don't see why they couldn't be made and adapted to fit our machines, I bought the narrow slotted plate from Bob but have yet to try it, I would feel more comfortable using the machine with a feed dog.

[billymac814]

I just recently switched to the slotted plate without the dogs after using it with the dogs since buying it. So far I'm not really liking it. I keep thinking its me so I'm continuing to try it. I didn't really have much of a problem with the smooth feed dogs marking up the leather too bad and it seems to feed so much better with them. Ill have to try backing off on the bottom tension and reduce the top with it as I had to tighten it up quite a bit. The main incentive I had for doing this was to make it easier to switch from the flat plate to the holster or stirrup plate. I wish those could be used with the feed dogs left in place. I may end up grinding the bottom of the holster plate out to clear the dogs if I go back to them.

I also modified the center foot to be open and I prefer that.

I don't see why they couldn't be made and adapted to fit our machines, I bought the narrow slotted plate from Bob but have yet to try it, I would feel more comfortable using the machine with a feed dog.

[Tree Reaper]

billy;

I also modified the center foot to be open and I prefer that.

How so?

Are you using the table when sewing holsters?

I haven't used the holster plate yet but I was thinking of removing the flatbed table to allow room for the holster without fooling with removing the dog.

Kevin.

[billymac814]

Here's my center foot. I did it with a small cut off wheel and then just polished it up. Its much easier to see where the needle is going to go.

I don't have the table attachment mounted when doing holsters or belts. I don't use it for much actually unless its something that's really big.

What does the flatbed have to do with the feed dogs though? I don't use the holster plate very often at all either. I'm pretty sure I'm going to just put my feed dogs back in, I seem where another guy was able to grind enough material out of the bottom of the holster plate for the feed dogs to clear so they can be left in place. I was much happier with how it worked with them in. I'm going to give it a few more days and see how it goes.

[Tree Reaper]

If the holster is off the table you have more clearance and can use the standard plate with the dog.

With the table on the holster is sitting on a slant due to the thickness of the holster.

[billymac814]

Oh ok, I see what you mean now, I wasn't sure what you meant at first.

I find it easier to use without the table with most items, its easier to maneuver things around. I don't need the holster plate very often so I think I'm just putting my dogs back in. I think with the smooth feed dogs that the marking is minimal and I've had better results with it feeding and back stitching. It could possibly be me since others seem to use the slotted needle plate and like it I just am not seeing the advantage. The feed dogs are so large that its almost like having a smooth plate that moves with the work. I almost prefer the look of the back side with the dogs in as they basically flatten the stitches down for me, with the slotted plate it makes it look different but I wouldn't say better.

[Les No6]

In essence the unison feed mechanism is an elaborate needle feed jump foot where the lower and upper needle guides are brought into contact with the item being sewn thus compressing the material while the stitch is being formed (not needed on leather) and binging the needle fixing points (needle guides) into the closest possible proximity to give the needle the greatest possible rigidity in the direction of feed.

You should really be using a bottom needle guide with a slotted plate it’s an important component, the feed dog is a through plate needle guide, under plate needle guides are the same but are flat on the top you can grind down the former if you can’t find an under plate one (Ferdco used to sell them). With a slotted plate you now have needle feed jump foot and the upper needle guide (middle foot) should be removed, most needle feed jump foot machines don’t even have them such as the Juki 421 (441 without middle foot) the problem (when using slotted plates) with the upper needle guides on unison feed is that it presses down on the leather when feeding, pushing it into contact with the plate whereas with needle feed jump foot the upper needle guide doesn’t come in contact with the leather and prior to the needle feeding the needle lifts the leather a little clear of the plate giving complete freedom for the needle to feed. Under plate needle guides are adjusted so that the front of the needle is in contact with the front of the needle guide as the needle feeds, the needle is now fixed at the needle bar and at the bottom (and supported somewhere between by the upper needle guide if used) and is now ridged in the direction of feed, the guide needs readjusting when you change the size of needle.

In summary the lower needle guide is an essential component irrespective of plate used upper needle guides are expendable in most cases and are only needed when using fine needles for extra support, cutting the front out of the middle foot renders it useless as a needle guide, if you are unhappy with the middle foot just remove it now you have a needle feed jump foot (421 the model intended for leather) irrespective of throat plate used and regular feet can now be used for the jump foot.

As you have probably realised by the time you’ve read this far the problems you are experiencing when using slotted plates are due to the needle flexing because it’s not properly supported.

[billymac814]

I think I'm just putting my feed dogs back in. That sounds simpler and I was perfectly happy with how it stitched with them. It makes sense that needle flexing could be causing feeding issues, I can't say for sure if that's my problem or not. I'm not actually having problems per se but I just liked the way it worked better with the smooth feed dogs installed.

I get what your saying about opening up the middle foot being useless as a needle guide but its easier to see and that's how the middle feet come with the Cobra machines and I haven't heard any problems arise because of them.

[Les No6]

I think I'm just putting my feed dogs back in. That sounds simpler and I was perfectly happy with how it stitched with them. It makes sense that needle flexing could be causing feeding issues, I can't say for sure if that's my problem or not. I'm not actually having problems per se but I just liked the way it worked better with the smooth feed dogs installed.

I get what your saying about opening up the middle foot being useless as a needle guide but its easier to see and that's how the middle feet come with the Cobra machines and I haven't heard any problems arise because of them.

As I explained the centre foot isn’t needed as far as needle feed is concerned it doesn’t come into play at all unless you are using fine needles. I also neglect the walking foot mechanism which isn’t common to both unison and needle feed, and the bottom needle guide is important to both, the through plate, feed dog is a must for unison feed, as is the centre foot otherwise you have needle feed jump foot. As long as you have the bottom needle guide no problem.

[leatherkind]

I am too very happy with my cowboy 4500 from Toledo.

I however had troubles with using a stirrup plate. First necessity to remove the feed dog was annoying. Eventually I resolved that by grinding the bottom of the plate off to allow anough room for the dog. http://leatherworker...70

That seemed to work but the plate had one lip quite narrow and it would leave a groove on leather. In addition i could not use left sided saddle presser foot because it was too far to the left from where the elevated part of the stirrup plate was and with softer leather it was a mess.

I decided to give it a try and make a custom stirrup plate.

After couple of messups and model adjustments since yesterday I had a working prototype which actually seem to work.

The plate might look a bit weird because it is made out of ABS plastic (3d printer was used).

It turned out to be quite strong and does not flex at all even with thick leather #27 needle and 345 thread.

I also made the needle slot as narrow as possible and there is a cutout on the bottom for the feed dog which allowes me not to remove the feed dog and quickly swap plates.

It also did not leave any significant markings although the thread tension is a bit too high.

I will keep my fingers crossed and hope it works for some time.

[Wizcrafts]

I am too very happy with my cowboy 4500 from Toledo.

I however had troubles with using a stirrup plate. First necessity to remove the feed dog was annoying. Eventually I resolved that by grinding the bottom of the plate off to allow anough room for the dog. http://leatherworker...70

That seemed to work but the plate had one lip quite narrow and it would leave a groove on leather. In addition i could not use left sided saddle presser foot because it was too far to the left from where the elevated part of the stirrup plate was and with softer leather it was a mess.

I decided to give it a try and make a custom stirrup plate.

After couple of messups and model adjustments since yesterday I had a working prototype which actually seem to work.

The plate might look a bit weird because it is made out of ABS plastic (3d printer was used).

It turned out to be quite strong and does not flex at all even with thick leather #27 needle and 345 thread.

I also made the needle slot as narrow as possible and there is a cutout on the bottom for the feed dog which allowes me not to remove the feed dog and quickly swap plates.

It also did not leave any significant markings although the thread tension is a bit too high.

I will keep my fingers crossed and hope it works for some time.

I would like to get one if yours holds up. Contact me via the PM feature. I have other things in mind that you might be able to "print" for me in plastic.

[billymac814]

Me too. I put my feed dogs back in because I like them better, if that works out let me know and I'd be interested. Another thing that would be nice is a plate just like the one used with the feed dogs but without the grooves

[Trox]

I am too very happy with my cowboy 4500 from Toledo.

I however had troubles with using a stirrup plate. First necessity to remove the feed dog was annoying. Eventually I resolved that by grinding the bottom of the plate off to allow anough room for the dog. http://leatherworker...70

That seemed to work but the plate had one lip quite narrow and it would leave a groove on leather. In addition i could not use left sided saddle presser foot because it was too far to the left from where the elevated part of the stirrup plate was and with softer leather it was a mess.

I decided to give it a try and make a custom stirrup plate.

After couple of messups and model adjustments since yesterday I had a working prototype which actually seem to work.

The plate might look a bit weird because it is made out of ABS plastic (3d printer was used).

It turned out to be quite strong and does not flex at all even with thick leather #27 needle and 345 thread.

I also made the needle slot as narrow as possible and there is a cutout on the bottom for the feed dog which allowes me not to remove the feed dog and quickly swap plates.

It also did not leave any significant markings although the thread tension is a bit too high.

I will keep my fingers crossed and hope it works for some time.

Thank you leatherkind, I have been following your post regarding the 441 stirrup plate and its limitations. And of course, I agree with you, the plate is useless the way it is. I was planning to modify my plate the same way you did your. However, the narrow left side made me realize it can never be any good. I make me wonder if the constructor even cared to try it out, before mass-producing it.

The 441 with its long needle system need a lower needle guide. If not a feed dog, a modified feed dog or a real Ferdco pat. lower needle guide. Your ABS plate looks exactly as the stirrup/bag plate should look like. Have you considered letting somebody make it in steel. I may know a company who is interested in making it, a company who makes sewing attachments. Even if the ABC plastic would hold up well, it looks like the ruff surface of it will slow down the leather feeding. Or is the surface smooth enough?

To get my purchased stirrup plate to look like that, it has to be shopped and built up with weld (on the left side). (And grinded and polished of course) I do not know if it will be any good after welding, it a risky business. Maybe brass welding would do the trick, I do not know for sure. I have also considered that steel weld (even after been polished) might color wet leather black. All available 441 stirrup and holster plates have this stupid narrow left side. They all have to be from the same factory. It is important that this factory get some constructing feedback. The same line of attachments also produce feet’s of different height, which means you have to adjust the machines alternating height when you want to combine any of these feet’s. There is only one corrects height on these feet’s all others are errors. We can keep on spending our time modifying all what we buy or ask more from our dealers. I think we must ask for more quality to get it, let’s put some pressure on the Chinese makers. If they do not want to make proper stuff, there is other who will.

Thanks

Tor

Edited March 4, 2013 by Trox

[leatherkind]

Since the last post i was trying to develop a stirrup plate best i can. Made a few prototypes just to find something wrong again. Or dimensions , or printing settings... or weather.

While that I went to a hardware store to look for plate bolts with wider heads and lost one of mine there. Could not get new screw for two weeks and could not test the prototypes... it turned out that those throat plate bolts on Cowboy 4500 are 11/64 40t/in. the most unusual cut! and you can not get them anywhere!

However, here is a good news. I finally ironed out most problems with the prototypes and learned how to polish ABS and how to use darn 3D software too.

The bottom plates on the pic are my latest version. The stitch on the bottom looks very good and leather slides very well.

I am now going to give them to one experienced leather worker for a test drive ans see what he has to say.

The last version has a shorter needle slot then previous versions. Therefore the stitch length has to be limited otherwise they will interfere with the needle and the dog.

Have a very nice day everyone.

[billymac814]

Once you get them ironed out how much do you think you could sell them for?

[Wizcrafts]

Those plates look really nice, Leatherkind! I tried grinding the bottom of my stainless steel stirrup plate and couldn't remove enough steel to allow the feed dog to move freely. I almost cut right through the right edge! I still have to drop the feed dog to use it. It is probably going to snap under a heavy load.

I have ideas for better plates and maybe your plastic parts can be models for a high-end Lapeer Michigan metal shop I have business dealings with. They can scan/copy a prototype part into the $10,000 CAD program they use and have several huge Haas computer driven milling machines that run constantly.

[MADMAX22]

I know this is an old thread but Ive been out of the loop for a while. Was wondering if anything came of these new improved plates. Would like to pick one up if anyone is making them.

[Darren Brosowski]

Every new machine takes time to get used to.

If leather sewing was easy then every idiot would be doing it so take it as a win every time you learn something new.

It is possible to make custom feed dogs but the investment in tooling is scary.