Fitting The Rider

[JinxedDream]

Hopefully this is the correction section. Anyway, I ended up here because ultimately, I'd like to make my own saddle. Currently saving up for that

My biggest issue is not fitting my horses, I can usually find a saddle fairly quickly that fits whatever horse I'm riding. My biggest headache is finding a saddle that fits me, the rider. I've probably gone through 8 or 9 saddles in the last 10 years. I've had everything from old economy saddles to an old custom-made. I've ridden Western, English and stock. Usually to the same result, after 2 or 3 hours in the saddle, I'm in enough pain to cry. I've walked home because I hurt that much. I've ditched my saddles and rode home bareback, going back later with the truck to get my tack. I rode bareback for 2 years exclusively because I was so frustrated. Sadly, I sold my bareback horse and my new one can't go bareback... she's short-strided and hard to stay on. I have a stock saddle right now, it's not perfect but I can go about 4 or 5 hours without too much pain. Problem is the saddle is old and I don't know how many years it has left.

So my question is how do you make sure your saddle fits the rider? Do you think padding the seat actually makes it more comfortable for the rider? Padding has never done anything for me... if I do anything, I throw a sheepskin over the seat.

[Northmount]

Hopefully this is the correction section. Anyway, I ended up here because ultimately, I'd like to make my own saddle. Currently saving up for that

My biggest issue is not fitting my horses, I can usually find a saddle fairly quickly that fits whatever horse I'm riding. My biggest headache is finding a saddle that fits me, the rider. I've probably gone through 8 or 9 saddles in the last 10 years. I've had everything from old economy saddles to an old custom-made. I've ridden Western, English and stock. Usually to the same result, after 2 or 3 hours in the saddle, I'm in enough pain to cry. I've walked home because I hurt that much. I've ditched my saddles and rode home bareback, going back later with the truck to get my tack. I rode bareback for 2 years exclusively because I was so frustrated. Sadly, I sold my bareback horse and my new one can't go bareback... she's short-strided and hard to stay on. I have a stock saddle right now, it's not perfect but I can go about 4 or 5 hours without too much pain. Problem is the saddle is old and I don't know how many years it has left.

So my question is how do you make sure your saddle fits the rider? Do you think padding the seat actually makes it more comfortable for the rider? Padding has never done anything for me... if I do anything, I throw a sheepskin over the seat.

I think people will need to know where the pain is and what your fit is to be able to help with an answer or suggestion. Back, hips, knees, etc. Is there actual bruising? Have you been in an accident and have damaged joints, bones, ligaments? Are you short, tall, long body, short legs, heavy, slim, etc.

It's so tempting to say something about a "pain in the ...". But I'll leave that for someone else.

Tom

[Denise]

Jinxed, what I think you are needing is the right shape in the groundseat to fit you. You can ride hard seats all day if they fit you, and padded seats still hurt if they are not shaped to fit the rider. Check out "ground seat" in the search function here and see what you come up with. I know there were some discussions on it a few years ago. You can also search for fitting males versus females. (It makes a difference..) Building a good groundseat to fit the rider is one of the discussions saddle makers constantly have, so you know there are many opinions on it...

[JinxedDream]

I think people will need to know where the pain is and what your fit is to be able to help with an answer or suggestion. Back, hips, knees, etc. Is there actual bruising? Have you been in an accident and have damaged joints, bones, ligaments? Are you short, tall, long body, short legs, heavy, slim, etc.

It's so tempting to say something about a "pain in the ...". But I'll leave that for someone else.

Tom

Mostly my knees. And depending on the saddle, hips. Back is rare, that's usually only in English and for the most part, preventable. I did get wider stirrups, that helped a bit with the knees. The worse part is actually that I feel like I'm sitting on the side of the seat... my seat bones hurting so bad is usually what makes me get off and walk home. In the case of the stock saddle, only the knees are really an issue.

As for me, I'm tall and slim. 5'10" with a 36" inseam. I feel the most comfortable in a 15" western seat but at the same time, I feel like I'm sitting on the sides... not in the actual seat.

I'm going to attach a few photos...

First 14" western. Cheap, got it new. So all wear marks are for me. Had the seat issue... and that's why I sold it.

^ Felt like I was sitting on that concho.

Next, 15" western. Older, got it used. Seat was amazing. But my hips and knees would nearly kill me. Not to mention the stirrups were so off and short.

Last, my current. 15" stock saddle. Only pain is my knees and it hasn't been enough to make me want to find a new saddle. The seat isn't as dished as I like but it works.

These are the saddles I all kept for more than a year. The fat pony in the tooled saddle was my bareback horse... it was like riding a big gaited couch!

Jinxed, what I think you are needing is the right shape in the groundseat to fit you. You can ride hard seats all day if they fit you, and padded seats still hurt if they are not shaped to fit the rider. Check out "ground seat" in the search function here and see what you come up with. I know there were some discussions on it a few years ago. You can also search for fitting males versus females. (It makes a difference..) Building a good groundseat to fit the rider is one of the discussions saddle makers constantly have, so you know there are many opinions on it...

Thank you! Will search this. Looks like we posted at the same time.

[Northmount]

I'm not a saddle maker so take this with a grain or two of salt. To be hurting your knees, you must be sitting in such a way to be twisting your knees. I assume the 4 hour rides are at a walk for the majority of the time. So that would say something about position and length of stirrup. Also should get a medic to check your knees for any deterioration. I know it doesn't take much twist to really hurt my knees now.

I rarely rode with a saddle. Couldn't afford one when I was a kid. So it was bareback for several years. Haven't ridden for many years now. After riding bareback for so long, rode with a saddle one day and just about fell off at a full gallop. Had forgotten how! I was trying to ride like bareback and kicked my feet out of the stirrups, then they flopped all over and beat the heck out of my ankles. Didn't take long to realize what I had forgotten!

Maybe it helps to be bow legged too!

Tom

Edited March 12, 2013 by northmount

[JinxedDream]

Right now its at a walk, horse had a few weeks off but usually, that is mostly, trot and canter, once she's back in shape. Walking is too slow for me LOL It is easier for me to post at a trot.

It could be but I'm not sure. I can at least stand after riding in the stock saddle, those stirrups help so much! I don't think my position is too far off ideal, my coach hasn't said anything recently. Although I've been riding in Tough Ducks recently... so its entirely possible that I have been sitting funny up there.

Your falling off incident sounds like mine. I hadn't ridden bareback in close to 4 years, just went from saddle to saddle. Had a photoshoot last summer and the photographer wanted me to canter bareback through a field. Let's just say all she got was some really funny photos of me trying and failing to stay on the horse.

[rufusjames]

I have shorter legs(32" inseam) and have suffered through knee pain while riding also. What helped me the most was switching to crooked stirrups and twisted leathers. I am a huge fan of the crooked stirrups. I ride the small Barrel Racer model. They really help align your leg while mounted. the footbed is parallel to the ground when on the horse. Twisting the leathers helped my knees also as I was not fighting the fenders wanting to return to their "natural hang" being parallel the horse. Much better when twisted the "natural hang" is perpendicular the horse. Therefore you don' have to maintain that position = less leg strain. This may or may not work for you, but has worked for me.

[dagcon]

Hi, JinxedDream,

I might be new to leather craft, but I am a rider and saddles are my passion, just ask my husband.

Two different horses, different size and breed, Western, English, (jumping, dressage, all purpose), Treeless saddles, Flex Panel, I have tried them and own most of them. They ALL have their purpose.

Looking at your pictures, for the life of me I can not believe how short your fenders are. For a 36” inch inseam length, to have a leg on horse and be able to reach his barrel with heel/spur they have to be short, but they create torque in your knees.

That would explain why you don’t have that problem riding bare back.

Short fenders/leathers will also push your seat out of alignment, creating lower back problems.

And why is your Aussie Saddle more comfortable? Fenders are turned, which helps a lot, just like RufusJames mentioned.

English saddles have much thinner/narrower leathers, but with your legs, I imagine you have problems with knee blocks pushing your upper leg to outside.

I will look forward to your post on saddle making, I’m planning to make saddle pad for my daughter, with spinal protection for her horse.

Good luck, I understand saddle fitting.

Dag

[Matt S]

Jinxed, any chance of posting a side-on pic of you mounted at halt? What Dag has said sounds about right and checking your position is the most logical thing to do, at the risk of sounding a little patronising.

[JinxedDream]

Jinxed, any chance of posting a side-on pic of you mounted at halt? What Dag has said sounds about right and checking your position is the most logical thing to do, at the risk of sounding a little patronising.

That's not an issue. I'll find one tonight, post it.

Dag, thank you. English saddles are an issue, I have only found one that I really liked and it was on one of my catch ride horses

. 9 times out of 10, I can basically wrap my legs almost all the way around the barrel of the horse. Current horse is 15.1hh, quite a step up from my quarter ponies.

[JinxedDream]

Okay, photos....

Bareback

Under saddle, same horse.

That's about it. That's the only standing under saddle photo I have.

[Matt S]

I am going to go out on a limb here. It may just be the angle of the photo but it looks like your stirrups are too short. I was always taught (admittedly from a modern English seat school) that your ear, hip and heel should be in vertical alignment. Amongst other things it makes rising (posting?) In the stirrupsuch easier and you get a closer contact with the horse.

[JinxedDream]

They might be a bit on the short side but if I make them any longer, I lose my stirrups.

This is when I had them longer

My coach told me to shorten them a few days later.

[Matt S]

I need to point out I am neither a riding instructor, nor do I play one on TV, and I've only been schooled in the English style. But I think your leg is too far forward -- as I said, I was always taught that the heel needs to be directly underneath the hip and the ear. To do this, your stirrups need to be like in the photo you just posted. Rule of thumb is the stirrup tread level with your ankle bones with the feet out and legs relaxed down. Alternatively you can judge this from the ground on a GP English saddle by putting your middle finger on the stirrup bar under the jockey and making it so the stirrup tread is at your armpit with the arm straight.

Like I said, this comes from one style of English riding. Bringing the leg underneath you brings your centre of gravity underneath you too -- which I find gives me a more independent seat.

[JinxedDream]

I'm aware of that. However, if I make them longer again, cues become difficult. You can see just how far down my boots are along her side. I know on my fat pony, my toes would touch her knees. I take the arm length and then shorten it a hole. When I did ride English in first year college, I was running the irons up 3 to 4 holes just so I could keep my legs on the horse not around the horse (it was a 16.2hh warmblood).

[keplerts]

I think your stirrup length is fine in the first photo. I believe your feet are pushed forward because that is how and aussie saddle in setup to place you feet.

Most people ride with their stirrups way to long. Just goes to show there are lots of opinions

Good luck on this one Jinx.

Tom

[JinxedDream]

^ I think that is the thing about horses and riding... there are so many different opinions and ways. I did find more Aussie saddle photos and all are similar to what I'm doing. Saddleseat as well. Oddly enough not dressage which is what an Aussie saddle was built on (the traditional ones that is).

I've been researching ground seats. So many options!

[AdamTill]

This might be of interest:

http://www.equinestudies.org/whos_built_best_2008/whos_built_best_2008_pdf1.pdf

[JinxedDream]

This might be of interest:

http://www.equinestu...t_2008_pdf1.pdf

Thank you! That was great!

[vacacaballo]

JinxedDream, as Deb Bennett lays out in the above article, the female pelvis wants to naturally sit more forward than a male's. The Aussie saddle clearly has a less dramatic rise to the seat, allowing a little more forward rotation of the pelvis...and allowing the saddlemaker to move the low-point in the groundseat forward.

Twist your stirrup leathers though. Life's too short. That will really help with the torque on your knees. http://twistandwrap.blogspot.com/2012/08/how-to-twist-wrap-your-stirrup-leathers.html

Don't worry about the position or angle of your feet, in terms of classical equitation seat. The correct position is what feels good to you and keeps you pain-free. But, I suspect that if you had a saddle that allowed you to rotate your pelvis forward and was also narrow enough to get your legs under you, the vertical alignment you're comfortable with will be closer to your alignment while bareback. The wear spots on the 14" western saddle are pretty telling. I bet your hips were really hurting.

I wonder if a traditional Poley-style Aussie Stock Saddle (not built on western bars) would suit you better. They can have really deep upright seats that would put you closer to the bareback position you seem to find most comfortable. I'd also love to know how you fared in a barrel racing saddle, many of which seem to have a less aggressive forward rise to the seat, with the stirrups set at the 3/4 position.

Good luck.

[Ken Nelson]

Sitting up straight in a western saddle that fits you and has the stirrups adjusted right, look down over your knee and you should be able to see the toe of your boot. Doing some western events will require shorter stirrups. First saddle has the stirrups hung too far back. Properly made, a stirrup and fender will stay turned in the proper position. On the second saddle, the stirrups need to permanently turned. They weren't when it was constructed and it is nearly impossible to get them to stay with out constant blocking and weighting. A ground seat that fits you and a saddle that fits you and is adjusted properly will help you a lot. You should not be setting on the cantle of the saddle when just riding. Just riding across the pasture, you should be able to run you hand between the cantle and your back side without putting pressure on you hand. The cantle on a western saddle is there to catch you, not sit on. HTH Ken

[oltoot]

The stirrup leathers/fenders are not twisted/shaped on either western while they are small and pliable on the poly. Both westerns have wide flat tree bars and cheap/easy ground seats. Your pains will disappear with a saddle made on a tree with bars shaped for a narrow seat and a women's ground seat/seat.