From Dye To Finish Help

[Aldridge]

I am very new at this craft and a new member of Leatherworker.net. I apologize if this question has been asked before. My problem is getting the steps from the dye to finish in the correct order. I have been making simple items so far such as small keychains and bracelets using 4-5oz veg tanned leather. My items always end up hard as a rock. I've tried very small amounts of Febings oil dye as well as small amounts of resoline. Still ends up very stiff. I've tried softening the leather with some Neetsfoot oil but then it turns out to look and feel more like a piece of rubber than leather. Where am I going wrong? My steps are as follows:

Febings Oil Dye

Let Dry

Buff

Acrylic Resoline

Let Dry

Buff

Neetsfoot Oil

Let Dry

Buff

Please tell me if this is not the correct order. I was told by a Tandy salesperson to apply the Neetsfoot AFTER I apply the resoline. Is this true? This post may seem like a lot of questions all at once but I would be very appreciative if someone can give me their advice on this. Thanks so much!

[electrathon]

You have to dye before you put on your sealer. Whoever told you to put it on after is confused.

[Aldridge]

Electrathon,

Thank you for your response. The dye is my first step. She told me to apply the Neetsfoot Oil after I apply the sealer. I've always thought the sealer was always the last step.

[electrathon]

The dye is a little harsh on the leather. The oil helps rejuvinate it. If you put oil on over the sealer you will not have any penitration, it would do nothing but make it oily.

Drying overnight between steps is good.

[stingray4540]

I'm still trying to nail down a good process myself, so take this with a grain of salt, as it is only from my research on this website and not actual experience.

It seems the "best" way is to

Carve

Oil

Dye

Finish

Optional: antique, then one more finish coat.

I have some projects that are coming to this step, so I plan to experiment with that process on some scrap. My only concern is that the oil before dye will affect the color. I may also substitute the oil for an oil/wax mixture I use to better waterproof the leather, but I am not sure how the Finish(resolene or lacquer) will adhere to the wax/oil.

Looks like I have some experimenting to do...

[Tina]

I use the oil after dying (I'm using spirit dye) to rejuvenate the leather again...

carve

dye/paint

oil (let it sit for 24 hours)

resist - 2 layers (let it sit for another 24 hours)

antiquing (optional)

top coat

Edited March 28, 2013 by Tina

[Cyberthrasher]

I may also substitute the oil for an oil/wax mixture I use to better waterproof the leather, but I am not sure how the Finish(resolene or lacquer) will adhere to the wax/oil.

You can use a product like that as a FINAL step. Think about it, what good is the wax going to do when it's sitting under an acrylic finish? The oil is used to condition the leather, the wax is used to offer water resistance to the very top layer.

As far as neatsfoot oil goes, it will darken things, so if you're using a lighter color dye, be sure to either apply it lightly, or apply it from the flesh side of the leather. This will also help to keep from moving pigment around after dying. This is really important for me when I have natural portions of my leather surrounded by stuff like black.

My general methods:

carve

dye

buff,buff,buff

oil

finish

antique

finish

wax/oil conditioner (Montana Pitch Blend is my favorite)

There are some adjustments that I make if I'm airbrushing, but I have a feeling that may confuse the issue here. Also, in regards to oiling after finishing - I have found that oil WILL penetrate Resolene, but it takes a really long time. This is why it's a water resistant finish and not water proof. Your standard oiling step should always be done before applying the finish. After all of my finishing, I apply my Montana Pitch Blend and let it sit over night. By morning the oil in the product has soaked through the finish and left the wax on top. Then I just buff up any extra and send it on its way.

[stingray4540]

You can use a product like that as a FINAL step. Think about it, what good is the wax going to do when it's sitting under an acrylic finish? The oil is used to condition the leather, the wax is used to offer water resistance to the very top layer.

I was thinking more along the lines of it being backup to the finish, since it's only water "resistant", and may wear off over time?

I was planning on using it as the last layer as well.

Idk, maybe it won't work? Maybe it will? My biggest concern is that dye and lacquer won't adhere to yhe wax.

[Cyberthrasher]

I was thinking more along the lines of it being backup to the finish, since it's only water "resistant", and may wear off over time?

I was planning on using it as the last layer as well.

Idk, maybe it won't work? Maybe it will? My biggest concern is that dye and lacquer won't adhere to yhe wax.

If you're planning on using it as the last layer, then you don't have to worry about anything adhering to it, because all the dye and lacquer will be UNDER the wax/oil mixture. When i say the last layer, it is the very last layer. At the point I put that on, everything is done and ready to go out the door. Basically you're doing the "maintenance" step that your customers should be doing on occasion. That's another reason I prefer the pre-made conditioner. It's something that I can instruct them to use as well so that I know they'll have a good product to use that won't react any differently then what I use on it.

http://www.montanapitchblend.com/our-products.html

[stingray4540]

I see, so the idea is to maintain the top layer, so the lacquer finish never gets too exposed to wear?

[Cyberthrasher]

pretty much

I keep using MPB as an example because it's what I use and it fits the topic. When applied, it leaves a wax finish on top and allows the oil to soak through to the leather. The wax coating allows any water to bead up and offers a layer of protection for any scuffs. Think of it as a "temporary finish" that your customer can reapply as needed. Kind of like using leather care products on your boots, because that's exactly what it is, leather care.

[Dwight]

Resolene is a "final" finish, . . . as in "last thing done". It is not fully "water proof" but it sashays right up close to it.

You can (and I do sometimes) apply wax to a product that has been Resolene finished, . . . but it is the same as putting wax on my Ford pickup truck. It makes it shine a bit, . . . but that is all.

If you have to oil it, . . . do it before your apply the Resolene, . . . and remember to add oil very sparingly. Leather does not naturally have a lot of oil in it, . . . and like the old saying used to go "a little dab will do ya".

May God bless,

Dwight

[Aldridge]

Thanks to all who responded. Greatly appreciated. Should I oil both sides or just the top or just the bottom? My main concern is that my leather always turns hard as a rock. Never used any oil before but just got a bottle of Neetsfoot today. Does everyone prefer Neetsfoot Oil or is there something better out there? Thanks.

[Aldridge]

I use the oil after dying (I'm using spirit dye) to rejuvenate the leather again...

I don't mean to sound stupid but when you say "Spirit Dye", what do you mean? I've been using Feibings Oil Dye and I know there is an alcohol based Die as well. Are you referring to the alcohol based dye? Thanks.

[Tina]

Are you referring to the alcohol based dye? Thanks.

I'm using Angelus spirit dye and yes, it's alcohol based (without oil) :-)

[Cyberthrasher]

Thanks to all who responded. Greatly appreciated. Should I oil both sides or just the top or just the bottom? My main concern is that my leather always turns hard as a rock. Never used any oil before but just got a bottle of Neetsfoot today. Does everyone prefer Neetsfoot Oil or is there something better out there? Thanks.

Neatsfoot is the preferred choice (pure, not compound). It will be easier to get an even application by applying it to the grain side. But, if you have varying color, such as black to natural, the oil may lift some of the pigment out and move it around. At times like this, I apply it to the flesh side so I don't disturb the color. The goal is to get the oil into the leather. Also, keep in mind that it will darken the leather. The more you apply, the darker it will get. This is another benefit to applying it on the flesh side occasionally. When it comes down to it, you'll just want to experiment and find what works best for you.

[Aldridge]

Neatsfoot is the preferred choice (pure, not compound). It will be easier to get an even application by applying it to the grain side. But, if you have varying color, such as black to natural, the oil may lift some of the pigment out and move it around. At times like this, I apply it to the flesh side so I don't disturb the color. The goal is to get the oil into the leather. Also, keep in mind that it will darken the leather. The more you apply, the darker it will get. This is another benefit to applying it on the flesh side occasionally. When it comes down to it, you'll just want to experiment and find what works best for you.

Thanks so much! I'm thrilled to have found this site. So helpful !

[Cyberthrasher]

Thanks so much! I'm thrilled to have found this site. So helpful !

Yeah, this place is pretty cool isn't it - it's where I learned everything I know anyway

[stingray4540]

Curious as to why you oil after you dye. I'm working on a test piece and I oiled before the dye(Montana pitch blend did not work well...)

I waited 24hours, and it returned to almost natural leather color. The dye went on well and was only very slightly darker than on bare leather. And I didn't have to worry about smearing the dyes around or lifting off the color.

What is the advantage of oiling after you dye?

P.S. I also sprayed the first layer of lacquer, then brushed on the second. Thus avoiding smearing the dye.

So far it has come out very well! Now I'm just waiting for my antique paste so I can finish.

[Cyberthrasher]

Curious as to why you oil after you dye. I'm working on a test piece and I oiled before the dye(Montana pitch blend did not work well...)

I waited 24hours, and it returned to almost natural leather color. The dye went on well and was only very slightly darker than on bare leather. And I didn't have to worry about smearing the dyes around or lifting off the color.

What is the advantage of oiling after you dye?

P.S. I also sprayed the first layer of lacquer, then brushed on the second. Thus avoiding smearing the dye.

So far it has come out very well! Now I'm just waiting for my antique paste so I can finish.

First off, Montana Pitch Blend is a leather conditioner that has oil in it which is meant to be applied to a finished product - not a replacement for neatsfoot oil. I'm pretty sure I had discussed that with you before, but it's been a long week, so I just want to make sure I put it out there .

Now, the root of your question. The dye's have a tendency to suck any natural oils out of the leather. So, after dying, we need to add some oils back into the leather in order for it maintain its properties that we all love. If the dye is properly left to dry and buffed, there usually isn't too much of an issue with the oil. But, if you're going through extremes in color (natural to black as an example), then you're likely to get some discoloration - which is why I apply from the flesh side at that point.

[stingray4540]

Yes we did siscuss that, but I said I'd try it anyway. That was me saying you we're right, lol.

Oh I see, I thought it was mostly the carving process that was hard on the leather, didn't think the dyes had as much to do with it. If that's the case though, I think I would apply to the flesh side then.

[Cyberthrasher]

Yes we did siscuss that, but I said I'd try it anyway. That was me saying you we're right, lol.

That's what happens when I schedule too much stuff to do during a week off

I was actually referring to the possibility that I may have discussed it with someone else, so I wasn't entirely sure I was talking to the right person. My mind's just everywhere, so it gets hard to keep things straight sometimes.

Now, sometimes you'll want to apply your oil to the dye, especially if it needs a little help evening things out. There are times where my black looks a little uneven, so I rub a little oil on JUST the black to let it set in and even up the dye a little. It just takes some practice/experience to know what each situation is going to do.