Samstag Rigging?

[GrampaJoel]

Please show me a photo of the backside of the SamStag rigging where it is folded around the ring.

I just can't seem to get this picture in my mind as to how the straps should go.

I have looked all over the web and in the journals and magazines. But I have had no actual luck in finding a 'rear view' of the ring strap attachment.

Thanks everyone

Joel

Edited May 7, 2013 by GrampaJoel

[GrampaJoel]

Ok, so no one has a photo, how about maybe an explanation?

These photos below show the straps in different configurations.

My perplexity comes from the attachment of the small strap that wraps around the horn neck, how does it attach to the ring?

Some photos seem to show it not attached to the ring.

Some show the small strap dissappearing behind the large strap with no apparent method of attachment.

I have even seen saddles with the small strap button laced to the larger strap higher up.

And just a curious question, does the SamStag rigging put a lot of stress on the front of the bars?

I know a lot of questions. But I would like to build a saddle using this style rigging. I want it to be safe for the user, and safe for the horse as well.

Thanks for the help

Joel

[Goldshot Ron]

Joel,

I've looked in several sources (probably all that you've looked at), and none show the reverse side. I'd bet you, there is no one "best" way to do it. I haven't used the Sam Stagg rigging, so I can't offer any suggestions from experience. In Harry Adams book he talks a little about the history of this rigging. To keep with the essence of this style, I'd suggest braiding the straps together at the ring, and avoid using rivets and screws. Harry mentioned that this style was used when nails and screws were not readily available. I would think that even attaching the straps to the bars with screws would defeat the purpose of the strap over the fork, and maybe even weaken the strap.

Please post your saddle when done, good luck.

Ron

[oltoot]

I'm not sure why you would choose this rigging for other than reproduction work. It's not around any more because it had lots of issues. On the plus side, it did accomplish what it set out to do and that was to stabilize a rigging at ~ 7/8. The variety in attachment of the small strap comes from the minds of makers looking to establish stability for the front ring. To add help so that downward pressure on the ring would remain downward and not, following the path of least resistance, jerk the ring forward. In the last of your pics, the small strap is where it is because the longer strap going back to the rear accomplishes most of the desired the stabilityso the small one doesn't have much to do. As to attachment in the first four, my guess would be:

1 The rivit above the big ring

2 The rivits

3 to the ring itself

4 folded over the ring inside the fold of the large strap and secured by the lacing on the right side

Just guesses

[GrampaJoel]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Ron

I think I feel the same way you do about the rivets. But all I have seen in pictures seem to use rivets, and some are laced.

As far as strength, or loss of, I feel that any puncture of the straps would eventually weaken the strap. But on the other hand, I have repaired some saddles that are over fifty years old and the stirrup straps with holes seem to be holding pretty well. But stirrups don't have the constant pressure that a cinch strap does. The way the strap that wraps around the horn connects to the front ring just seems to be eluding me for some reason. i suppose i could just do it my own way. I'm just at a loss here as to the correct way to do it.

oltoot

I have a friend that is ageing faster than i am, and has always wanted a SamStag rigged half seat saddle. I think it would be fun to have one for myself too, and I figured it would be fun to build one.

I'm not a production builder. I just do things for fun or that present a challenge to me.

I do like to do things as historic as possible when called for. Hench my questions about the way a SamStag rigging attaches to it's front ring.

In particular the method used on the second straps ( back half of the main strap) attachment.

Thanks guys

Joel

Edited May 9, 2013 by GrampaJoel

[Goldshot Ron]

Joel,

New thought about Sam Stag rigging. Originally it was rigged at centerfire position, with no flanch cinch. The positioning and attachment of the rear bar strap was equally important to hold the saddle on the horse, like a McCelland. With that said, you need to figure in your rear ring style also. This plays an important part of how the narrow (around the horn) strap will be placed and secured. If not done properly, the front ring may swing or pivot back and forth as the horse moves, especially as the latigo slackens during a ride. You may have noticed on saddles 3 and 5, the fork botton attachs the wide strap to the bars. This helps keep the ring in the desired rigging position, but may pull out with wear, and torque on the latigo ring.

I'm still looking for pictures.

Ron

[Harfindel]

Sorry that I am coming a bit late to this discussion. On the chance that the OP might find this useful I will post it here.

I have been doing some research on the history of the Sam Stag rigging, as well as the etymological origin of the "Samstag/Sam Stagg/Sam Stack" name. From what I have found it appears that the rigging style was developed in order to improve the security with which the the front rings of the rigging were attached to the saddle tree, at a time when screws were expensive and not easily obtainable. (Nails had been mass produced in the US since before 1810, so they were around.) The rigging style seems to have become prominent at about exactly the same time and place that the steel saddle horn was invented (the horn was patented so it can be dated very accurately) - which would make sense since Sam Stagg rigging depends heavily on the integrity of the horn. Sam Stagg rigging appears to have been superceded by other constructions as "state of the art" in the early 1890's - which is coincidentally exactly the time period when wood screws began to be available widely and cheaply in the US.

So anyway, I would think that, If you are going to make a reproduction of a Sam Stagg-rigged saddle that is truly accurate to the 1875-1890 period, you would want to stay away from using any screws, and stick with nails, lacing, or rivets. (Rivets were also readily available at that time).

The best document I have been able to find that sets out the details of what is now called the Sam Stagg construction is Harry Adam's book. Actual Sam Stagg rigged saddles from the relevant period (as opposed to ones made later, after the rigging was just nostalgic) are not easy to find and view in person. The best document I have found with photos of dated Sam Stagg saddles from the period is The Cheyenne Saddle, by James Laird. The construction was apparently never patented or described in a patent from the period, though it is clearly shown in patent drawings that can definitely be dated to the early 1880s. By that time the construction was apparently so widely known that it did not merit any special mention in the patent description.

Sorry for going on about this. The whole Samstag/Sam Stagg thing has been really bugging me and so I have been spending my spare time studying it. If anyone knows of an actual use of the term "Samstag," etc., in reference to this type of saddle prior to the Windy Bill lyric in the 1920's, I would love to hear about it. Or if anyone knows the basis for the assertion in Ruxton that the rigging was invented by Joseph Samstag, I would love that, too.

[Harfindel]

Oh, hmm, just one more thought. The earliest Sam Stagg-rigged saddles I have been able to find are double-rigged, from Colorado/Wyoming. My guess is that single-rigged Sam Stagg saddles did not come around until later, as the California and Texas/Colorado/Wyoming saddle styles were apparently pretty separate until around 1900.